Assuming others are Christians

[cloudyday2]

Remember there are true convert and fake convert. True proverbs ...The dog goes back to its vomit. Pig go back to the wallowing in the mire. Not because its dirty but to Cool his flesh. That happens to false converts. The modern gospel don't use the law as jesus did, because sinners are not crucified with Christ. The law gospel,drives us to a new life in Christ. It is Only a matter of time. That the false convert is drawn back to the filth of the world to cool his sinful flesh. Sin is still alive in his hearts. That is why we have Mushroom converts they Spring up from nowhere then disapear. Not saying a genuine convert never sins,
Every christian battle with the world and flesh and the devil and sometime they falls into sin, But he falls.....the hypocrite false converts dives into sin. The christian sins against his will, the hypocrite convert makes provision for the flesh. You making provision for the flesh, you need to examine yourself.

o.k. thanks for the advice. I agree that traditional Christianity's rules are strict and hard for most to follow without crucifying the sinful inclinations and so forth.

Sin and the gospel don't matter to me now, because I don't believe in Christianity.

 

[cloudyday2]

It seems to me that everyone would be better of if we could ALL (i.e. Christian or non-Christian) learn to be respectful to one another and learn to overcome our compulsions that drive us to push each other for affirmation.

Additionally, if we do get into 'disputes,' we all need to learn when to stop so that our confrontations don't become socially unproductive or inappropriately enforced. And all of us need to throw out 'Revolutionary' Thinking and other political forms of pushiness.......and find ways that are conducive to living in peace even while we may disagree.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

That sounds like good advice to me. Christianity is changing from a vast majority to a small majority to a minority in the US (different regions and different rates of course). So everybody needs to try to be polite to other groups as you said in your post.

 

[oi_antz]

o.k. that's interesting and true what you said about Christians fearing to disbelieve. I was certainly that way in college. It is interesting that you have jumped that hurdle of fear, yet you continue to have some faith in a form of Christianity. The fear is a real problem. I think I had some small degree of fear and worry up until very recently, and I jumped the first hurdle of fear in college 25 years ago.

Of course I don't mean to encourage people to disbelieve. But it is good to lose the fear you describe.

The fear of everlasting torment? That does not seem consistent with God's nature. God is good. God is love. Etc. I see the scriptures indicating total destruction, as the first death the body dies, then all are raised to the Great White Throne. Those who are not deemed somehow fit for everlasting life are destroyed. That is called "the second death" in John's vision Revelation.

So, the fear of everlasting torment, or accusations that if we sin we are choosing hell over life etc is not from God. Early Christians knew that they were still prone to sin, and that it is impossible to be without sin while we have a corruptible body, and just as the prophets, developed a relationship with God, that He would guide and instruct them, speak to them and speak to others in what they said.

I believe those fear doctrines have been invented by His enemies and successfully preached in His name. Just as with substitutionary atonement doctrines, everlasting torment doctrines are not necessary and appear to have originated outside of Jesus Christ's teaching. Furthermore, nobody has seen the lamb's book of life, so no person (including one you have just been accused by), has any right to claim knowledge of any criteria or formula that will condemn or free a person regarding the second death. Only Jesus has that right, and He has told us what is expected of us:

Why do you call me "Lord", "Lord" but do not do as I say? Only those who actually do the will of my father in heaven will be saved. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them, and they follow me. You study the scriptures diligently because you think you have life in them, but the scriptures point to me and you refuse to come to me to have life!

But fwiw, I agree you are doing a good thing to drop all the baggage you have been loaded with. And I have faith in Him, as He says that He will search for any of His lost sheep until He finds them. Just don't be afraid to accept Him when that happens, I suggest it will relieve you.

 

[TheBarrd]

That is what I would expect if faith is a real thing that changes a person from carnal to spiritual or whatever. Of course there are many ex-Christians who were once very certain that their faith was real.

I would have to say that if your faith did not change your life, then it wasn't real, no matter what you may have thought about it.

 

[TheBarrd]

That sounds like good advice to me. Christianity is changing from a vast majority to a small majority to a minority in the US (different regions and different rates of course). So everybody needs to try to be polite to other groups as you said in your post.

I wonder if Christianity wasn't really always a small minority.
Jesus did seem to think that only a very few would find the path that leads to life...

 

[cloudyday2]

The fear of everlasting torment? That does not seem consistent with God's nature. God is good. God is love. Etc. I see the scriptures indicating total destruction, as the first death the body dies, then all are raised to the Great White Throne. Those who are not deemed somehow fit for everlasting life are destroyed. That is called "the second death" in John's vision Revelation.

So, the fear of everlasting torment, or accusations that if we sin we are choosing hell over life etc is not from God. Early Christians knew that they were still prone to sin, and that it is impossible to be without sin while we have a corruptible body, and just as the prophets, developed a relationship with God, that He would guide and instruct them, speak to them and speak to others in what they said.

I believe those fear doctrines have been invented by His enemies and successfully preached in His name. Just as with substitutionary atonement doctrines, everlasting torment doctrines are not necessary and appear to have originated outside of Jesus Christ's teaching. Furthermore, nobody has seen the lamb's book of life, so no person (including one you have just been accused by), has any right to claim knowledge of any criteria or formula that will condemn or free a person regarding the second death. Only Jesus has that right, and He has told us what is expected of us:

Why do you call me "Lord", "Lord" but do not do as I say? Only those who actually do the will of my father in heaven will be saved. My sheep listen to my voice. I know them, and they follow me. You study the scriptures diligently because you think you have life in them, but the scriptures point to me and you refuse to come to me to have life!

But fwiw, I agree you are doing a good thing to drop all the baggage you have been loaded with. And I have faith in Him, as He says that He will search for any of His lost sheep until He finds them. Just don't be afraid to accept Him when that happens, I suggest it will relieve you.

o.k. thanks

 

[cloudyday2]

I would have to say that if your faith did not change your life, then it wasn't real, no matter what you may have thought about it.

I wonder if Christianity wasn't really always a small minority.
Jesus did seem to think that only a very few would find the path that leads to life...

That is a common and well-respected view among Christians.

When I said earlier that I am finally through with Christianity (can't remember the exact words), I meant these views you posted no longer cause me to worry that I overlooked something in Christianity. I no longer worry that if only I had done something a little different, then I would have become a "real" Christian. I no longer think there are "real" Christians. I think there are Christians who "really" believe, but what they believe isn't "real". (IMO)

EDIT: After thinking more, what I meant to say is that I used to think that Christianity might be "real", but I thought that I needed to see some evidence for myself. Now I think that Christianity can't be "real", so I no longer have any worry or desire with respect to Christianity. I feel angry with Christianity, because the religion has harmed me in many, many ways - financially, psychologically. I feel annoyed with Christianity, because I am surrounded by Christian friends and family and culture.

I hope that this thread will cause a few Christians to keep their beliefs more private to avoid annoying people like me.

 

[oi_antz]

That is a common and well-respected view among Christians.

When I said earlier that I am finally through with Christianity (can't remember the exact words), I meant these views you posted no longer cause me to worry that I overlooked something in Christianity. I no longer worry that if only I had done something a little different, then I would have become a "real" Christian. I no longer think there are "real" Christians. I think there are Christians who "really" believe, but what they believe isn't "real". (IMO)

EDIT: After thinking more, what I meant to say is that I used to think that Christianity might be "real", but I thought that I needed to see some evidence for myself. Now I think that Christianity can't be "real", so I no longer have any worry or desire with respect to Christianity. I feel angry with Christianity, because the religion has harmed me in many, many ways - financially, psychologically. I feel annoyed with Christianity, because I am surrounded by Christian friends and family and culture.

I hope that this thread will cause a few Christians to keep their beliefs more private to avoid annoying people like me.

It will make them want to 'help' you though, which is naturally to fix your belief that Christianity "can't" be real. Naturally if someone is convinced that it is real, they will have a very hard time ignoring your charge against them! You do have a valid point, but unrealistic expectations, to this extent.

 

[TheBarrd]

It will make them want to 'help' you though, which is naturally to fix your belief that Christianity "can't" be real. Naturally if someone is convinced that it is real, they will have a very hard time ignoring your charge against them! You do have a valid point, but unrealistic expectations, to this extent.

When someone is this determined to be left alone, continuing to try to convince them will ultimately do more harm than good, I think. There is, as some wise man said long ago, little point in continuing to beat a dead horse.
Yes, it makes me very sad to see someone trash their faith, but there's very little to be done in a case like this.

 

[oi_antz]

When someone is this determined to be left alone, continuing to try to convince them will ultimately do more harm than good, I think. There is, as some wise man said long ago, little point in continuing to beat a dead horse.
Yes, it makes me very sad to see someone trash their faith, but there's very little to be done in a case like this.

I accept your point of view, but if someone is convinced their point of view is correct and there is a fault in that point of view that the person has not yet become aware of, you would be complicit in the deceit. Ezekiel 33:6 states this principle. We cannot expect someone to change, and we shouldn't beat the dead horse. But it is different to not give water when He is thirsty.

 

[TheBarrd]

I accept your point of view, but if someone is convinced their point of view is correct and there is a fault in that point of view that the person has not yet become aware of, you would be complicit in the deceit. Ezekiel 33:6 states this principle. We cannot expect someone to change, and we shouldn't beat the dead horse. But it is different to not give water when He is thirsty.

I see your point, of course.
Then again, that very wise man also said that you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink.
It makes me very sad that this person has rejected Christ, and I do wish that I could help him...however, he's made it quite clear that he does not wish to drink from my well...
I shall pray for him, of course...however, I have learned that sometimes it is expedient to leave my pearls in my pocket...

 

[oi_antz]

I see your point, of course.
Then again, that very wise man also said that you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink.
It makes me very sad that this person has rejected Christ, and I do wish that I could help him...however, he's made it quite clear that he does not wish to drink from my well...
I shall pray for him, of course...however, I have learned that sometimes it is expedient to leave my pearls in my pocket...

Lol. I need to bite my tongue at this I think also of what St Paul said about just sowing, watering, but that only God gives the increase. Then I think about his comments regarding building skillfully on the foundation.

There seems to be good arguments for and against, given circumstances, but no hard fast rule is apparently right every time. Maybe it is largely about who is initiating the dialog, and for what purpose. I think it might be really what it's about, since religion treated as politics, as a topic reserved for an appropriate time and place, removes the confrontation in everyday life. However it is more than just religion, but about being right about the truth, and to some extent our religious beliefs will determine our views on any matters of truth.

OK, but around here, if you are wrong about the truth and you deserve to be put right, you probably should be informed. Not really appropriate at the dinner table when there is guests, or as a public display to shame.

 

[cloudyday2]

I see your point, of course.
Then again, that very wise man also said that you can lead a horse to water, but you can not make him drink.
It makes me very sad that this person has rejected Christ, and I do wish that I could help him...however, he's made it quite clear that he does not wish to drink from my well...
I shall pray for him, of course...however, I have learned that sometimes it is expedient to leave my pearls in my pocket...

Us dumb horses have too much sense to drink sand when you lead us to a mirage.

 

[cloudyday2]

This is a bit off-topic, but IMO the arguments surrounding Christian claims are mostly either historical or philosophical. The most persuasive arguments against Christianity IMO are historical, and historical facts require judgment.

Christians and non-Christians are usually aware of the same historical evidence, but they weight it differently. The historical evidence seems to naturally support a conclusion against Christianity IMO, but the same historical evidence can be made to support Christianity. IMO when a person gives up the fears embedded in Christian indoctrination and reconsiders the same evidence, that person becomes more skeptical.

So it's not about sharing new evidence to persuade a person IMO.

 

[oi_antz]

I

This is a bit off-topic, but IMO the arguments surrounding Christian claims are mostly either historical or philosophical. The most persuasive arguments against Christianity IMO are historical, and historical facts require judgment.

Christians and non-Christians are usually aware of the same historical evidence, but they weight it differently. The historical evidence seems to naturally support a conclusion against Christianity IMO, but the same historical evidence can be made to support Christianity. IMO when a person gives up the fears embedded in Christian indoctrination and reconsiders the same evidence, that person becomes more skeptical.

So it's not about sharing new evidence to persuade a person IMO.

I like where you have gone here, to weighing evidence. Can you please describe, for me, why you believe historical evidence naturally supports a conclusion against Christianity?

 

[golgotha61]

Cloudyday 2,

After reading your posts on this thread, it would seem that your issue is with Christians and not with Christianity. It appears that your interactions with some Christians has rightfully tainted your view of the message that Christ gave and the life that He lived. Some of your disagreements with Christians seems to have given you the necessity to create certain polemics that really are not the argument that concerns you. For instance, I don't think that the historical accuracy of the Bible is really an issue for your at all. I say that because, since you were once a follower of Christ and I would assume a student of Scripture, you would have heard at some interval that the Bible is not a history book, or a science book either, for that matter. Am I wrong?

 

[TheBarrd]

Us dumb horses have too much sense to drink sand when you lead us to a mirage.

Just remember...the word "dumb" was yours...not mine.

 

[cloudyday2]

Cloudyday 2,

After reading your posts on this thread, it would seem that your issue is with Christians and not with Christianity. It appears that your interactions with some Christians has rightfully tainted your view of the message that Christ gave and the life that He lived. Some of your disagreements with Christians seems to have given you the necessity to create certain polemics that really are not the argument that concerns you. For instance, I don't think that the historical accuracy of the Bible is really an issue for your at all. I say that because, since you were once a follower of Christ and I would assume a student of Scripture, you would have heard at some interval that the Bible is not a history book, or a science book either, for that matter. Am I wrong?

Thanks, golgotha I think there are a lot of different things that caused me to be an atheist. One big thing is my experience of psychosis. My case was mild compared to most people, and it went away quickly without medication, but it had a huge effect. I felt a need to understand what had happened and why. I didn't understand that I was mentally ill. So at first I joined a church and tried very hard to understand Christianity (especially Eastern Orthodoxy). Gradually I became skeptical. Then I learned about psychosis. Finally I tried very hard to become an atheist, because I would periodically remember hallucinatory experiences and get very upset and depressed, because I couldn't explain them to my own satisfaction. I would feel like I wanted to curl-up in a dark closet and go to sleep, because I felt so helpless. So I read as much as possible about the history of Christianity and Judaism hoping that if I could kill the last shreds of faith that I would also kill the paranoia. Finally I got better 6 months ago because I was forced to confront one of my key delusions and overcame it. I thought my best friend was trying to kill me or brainwash me for some unknown reason. I knew it didn't make sense rationally, but the idea kept coming back. Finally the delusion went away, and I am back to normal - except that Christianity no longer seems plausible to me at all.

EDIT: Sorry that probably makes me sound pretty crazy. I'm all better now, heh, heh, heh...

 

[golgotha61]

Thanks, golgotha I think there are a lot of different things that caused me to be an atheist. One big thing is my experience of psychosis. My case was mild compared to most people, and it went away quickly without medication, but it had a huge effect. I felt a need to understand what had happened and why. I didn't understand that I was mentally ill. So at first I joined a church and tried very hard to understand Christianity (especially Eastern Orthodoxy). Gradually I became skeptical. Then I learned about psychosis. Finally I tried very hard to become an atheist, because I would periodically remember hallucinatory experiences and get very upset and depressed, because I couldn't explain them to my own satisfaction. I would feel like I wanted to curl-up in a dark closet and go to sleep, because I felt so helpless. So I read as much as possible about the history of Christianity and Judaism hoping that if I could kill the last shreds of faith that I would also kill the paranoia. Finally I got better 6 months ago because I was forced to confront one of my key delusions and overcame it. I thought my best friend was trying to kill me or brainwash me for some unknown reason. I knew it didn't make sense rationally, but the idea kept coming back. Finally the delusion went away, and I am back to normal - except that Christianity no longer seems plausible to me at all.

EDIT: Sorry that probably makes me sound pretty crazy. I'm all better now, heh, heh, heh...

I am glad that you are doing better. I must admit that I wondered why you were investigating Christianity if you had decided that the Christian faith was no longer a valid worldview for you. I suspect that you are not quite done with the prospect that Christ is a real person and that the Bible, when studied in earnest, is an accurate account of God's relationship with mankind. Care to invest some time? I am going to be gone until tomorrow but why don't you put together some questions and specific issues that are the most unclear to you about what the Bible has to say and perhaps we can discuss them?

 

[cloudyday2]

I

I like where you have gone here, to weighing evidence. Can you please describe, for me, why you believe historical evidence naturally supports a conclusion against Christianity?

The historical evidence points to a gradual evolution of Judaism and Christianity with influences from other religions at various times.
This is similar to the way that science points to a gradual evolution of species.

Moses and the burning bush is similar to God creating Adam from clay.
Guided evolution of religion is similar to guided evolution of life.

IMO, I cannot accept that God was so uninterested in Judaism and Christianity that he allowed them to change and evolve almost randomly, yet these religions are supposed to be uniquely true.
The messy evolution of Christianity is even more obvious, because it happened more recently than Judaism.