Assuming others are Christians

[cloudyday2]

Do you guys see this as a problem? If so, how do you deal with the problem?

(1) Many churches teach that non-believers go to hell.
(2) Many non-believers used to believe and later lost faith.
(3) Many non-believers are married to believers, children of believers, coworkers of believers, etc.
(4) Non-believers often prefer to keep their views private for a variety of reasons. Maybe they don't want loved ones to worry about them spending eternity in hell. Maybe they don't want to jeopardize friendships, marriages, etc.

I know as a former believer, that it is hard to imagine that others do not believe. Often others used to believe, so it is natural to assume that they continue to believe. For this reason, the believer might casually makes comments where the non-believer must either keep silent or share his/her private views of Christianity.

This is a growing problem in the US, because we are transitioning from majority Christian to minority Christian.

Do you think Christians should be more sensitive that spouses, children, friends may no longer believe and therefore keep their own beliefs more private?
Do you think non-believers should be more outspoken?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Do you guys see this as a problem? If so, how do you deal with the problem?

(1) Many churches teach that non-believers go to hell.
(2) Many non-believers used to believe and later lost faith.
(3) Many non-believers are married to believers, children of believers, coworkers of believers, etc.
(4) Non-believers often prefer to keep their views private for a variety of reasons. Maybe they don't want loved ones to worry about them spending eternity in hell. Maybe they don't want to jeopardize friendships, marriages, etc.

I know as a former believer, that it is hard to imagine that others do not believe. Often others used to believe, so it is natural to assume that they continue to believe. For this reason, the believer might casually makes comments where the non-believer must either keep silent or share his/her private views of Christianity.

This is a growing problem in the US, because we are transitioning from majority Christian to minority Christian.

Do you think Christians should be more sensitive that spouses, children, friends may no longer believe and therefore keep their own beliefs more private?
Do you think non-believers should be more outspoken?

I'm a big proponent of both

A) Accepting differences of belief and not mistreating others because they believe differently and

B) Being encouraged to be open about one's beliefs.

I don't believe I should have to be "private" about my faith; nor do I think anyone else should either. I think it is entirely possible to believe another person is wrong and also respect and be good friends with such a person. The majority of my friends are not Christians, the majority of my friends are atheists or agnostic. I've never expected them to be quiet when expressing their opinion, even when such opinions are negative about my religion--I don't believe they should need to be silent or withhold their opinion.

But then I've never lived in a super conservative region, such as the American Bible Belt, which I understand is quite significantly different than my own native Pacific Northwest of the US.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[cloudyday2]

I'm a big proponent of both

A) Accepting differences of belief and not mistreating others because they believe differently and

B) Being encouraged to be open about one's beliefs.

I don't believe I should have to be "private" about my faith; nor do I think anyone else should either. I think it is entirely possible to believe another person is wrong and also respect and be good friends with such a person. The majority of my friends are not Christians, the majority of my friends are atheists or agnostic. I've never expected them to be quiet when expressing their opinion, even when such opinions are negative about my religion--I don't believe they should need to be silent or withhold their opinion.

But then I've never lived in a super conservative region, such as the American Bible Belt, which I understand is quite significantly different than my own native Pacific Northwest of the US.

-CryptoLutheran

My understanding is that Europeans don't discuss religion, so that is a possible model too.

Hell is the source of the problem, because Christians who believe in some form of heaven/hell based on religious belief would probably feel distressed to learn that a child or spouse is no longer a Christian.

My particular problem is with my elderly Christian mother. Most of the people I know have some contact with my mother (including my siblings), so if I tell them that I am not a Christian, then the information might reach my mother. So if somebody says something about God or Jesus, I just keep my mouth shut and maybe nod politely. I feel bad for treating my Christian friends and family like children who mustn't learn the truth about Santa, but that seems to be the only course. I wouldn't want to debate, but I would like to be able to say "actually I don't believe that anymore".

 

[TheBarrd]

hmmm...
I do live in the Bible belt, and while it is true that most folks around here profess to be Christians, it is also true that we do have some nonbelievers. Some folks don't like it, but most folks are content to let others decide for themselves.

 

[TheBarrd]

My understanding is that Europeans don't discuss religion, so that is a possible model too.

Hell is the source of the problem, because Christians who believe in some form of heaven/hell based on religious belief would probably feel distressed to learn that a child or spouse is no longer a Christian.

My particular problem is with my elderly Christian mother. Most of the people I know have some contact with my mother (including my siblings), so if I tell them that I am not a Christian, then the information might reach my mother. So if somebody says something about God or Jesus, I just keep my mouth shut and maybe nod politely. I feel bad for treating my Christian friends and family like children who mustn't learn the truth about Santa, but that seems to be the only course. I wouldn't want to debate, but I would like to be able to say "actually I don't believe that anymore".

Ahh, I do see your problem. Yes, your elderly Mom would probably be quite upset to find out that her precious baby has lost his faith. I know that I would be devastated to learn that one of my kids has gone atheist. Bad enough my kid brother has no faith.
My own opinion, for what it is worth (I am an elderly mother myself) would be not to disillusion her at this stage. The angel of death will take her out of the way soon enough...your secret could actually hurry him along. Why hurt her so much when you don't have to? You can out yourself to the rest of the family later...

 

[cloudyday2]

Ahh, I do see your problem. Yes, your elderly Mom would probably be quite upset to find out that her precious baby has lost his faith. I know that I would be devastated to learn that one of my kids has gone atheist. Bad enough my kid brother has no faith.
My own opinion, for what it is worth (I am an elderly mother myself) would be not to disillusion her at this stage. The angel of death will take her out of the way soon enough...your secret could actually hurry him along. Why hurt her so much when you don't have to? You can out yourself to the rest of the family later...

Thanks That has been my thought too. About 6 months ago, she made an earnest comment out of the blue that I might go to hell if I didn't believe or something (can't remember what exactly). I never explicitly said I didn't believe, but she was becoming suspicious. So I began suggesting we watch Christian movies, go to Christian bookstores, etc. I even went to church with her a few times earlier this year.

My efforts at pretending to be a disillusioned Christian have left me feeling uncomfortable. It seems a little disrespectful to pretend. Sometimes I've wondered if I'm just being a wimp to not tell people I don't believe. But I think it would upset my mother.

I hoped this discussion might cause Christians to think about the possibility that people who seem to agree with them are simply trying to be considerate of their feelings - that way Christians might keep their beliefs more private and not assume that others believe the same things.

 

[TheBarrd]

Thanks That has been my thought too. About 6 months ago, she made an earnest comment out of the blue that I might go to hell if I didn't believe or something (can't remember what exactly). I never explicitly said I didn't believe, but she was becoming suspicious. So I began suggesting we watch Christian movies, go to Christian bookstores, etc. I even went to church with her a few times earlier this year.

My efforts at pretending to be a disillusioned Christian have left me feeling uncomfortable. It seems a little disrespectful to pretend. Sometimes I've wondered if I'm just being a wimp to not tell people I don't believe. But I think it would upset my mother.

I hoped this discussion might cause Christians to think about the possibility that people who seem to agree with them are simply trying to be considerate of their feelings - that way Christians might keep their beliefs more private and not assume that others believe the same things.

You want Christians to keep their beliefs quiet, just in case someone might not agree with them?
You say this, knowing that we believe that, without Jesus, people are doomed to an eternity of suffering, right? You say this knowing that we are motivated by love for others, and an ardent desire that no one should perish, but that all might come to repentance. Dear man, the biggest reason we must NOT keep our beliefs private is just in case someone listening might be a closet atheist. The most earnest prayer of my heart would be to reach that one with the true love and compassion of God for him.

It is very sad that you have lost your faith in God. My own heart breaks when I think of your Mom, so sure that her baby is saved. Of course, when the Day comes, you won't be there. Will she miss you? I can't say. I do know that God will wipe all the tears from her eyes, however I see no reason to cause her grief and make her weep now.
Meantime, I will pray that somehow, you might find that faith that you lost...and be reunited with the mother who so obviously loves you in eternity.

 

[cloudyday2]

You want Christians to keep their beliefs quiet, just in case someone might not agree with them?
You say this, knowing that we believe that, without Jesus, people are doomed to an eternity of suffering, right? You say this knowing that we are motivated by love for others, and an ardent desire that no one should perish, but that all might come to repentance. Dear man, the biggest reason we must NOT keep our beliefs private is just in case someone listening might be a closet atheist. The most earnest prayer of my heart would be to reach that one with the true love and compassion of God for him.

It is very sad that you have lost your faith in God. My own heart breaks when I think of your Mom, so sure that her baby is saved. Of course, when the Day comes, you won't be there. Will she miss you? I can't say. I do know that God will wipe all the tears from her eyes, however I see no reason to cause her grief and make her weep now.
Meantime, I will pray that somehow, you might find that faith that you lost...and be reunited with the mother who so obviously loves you in eternity.

Yes, I can see the Christian side of it.
I feel bad letting my friends and family continue to believe in Christianity, because I am happier as an atheist, and I assume they would also be happier as atheists. But instead I quietly nod my head when they mention Jesus.

 

[TheBarrd]

Yes, I can see the Christian side of it.
I feel bad letting my friends and family continue to believe in Christianity, because I am happier as an atheist, and I assume they would also be happier as atheists. But instead I quietly nod my head when they mention Jesus.

I'd like to ask you, how are you happier as an atheist?
Of course, if you don't want to I do understand.

 

[cloudyday2]

I'd like to ask you, how are you happier as an atheist?
Of course, if you don't want to I do understand.

Let me think. I hope can explain and also not break any rules for the forum.

Christianity was not a religion I chose, and it has always seemed depressing, uncomfortable, oppressive, creepy - just like my memories of sitting in church looking at the sun filtering through a stained glass window depicting gruesome scenes from the Bible. For a long time, I didn't believe Christianity, but I thought it might be true. It's nice now to have a clean slate. I can believe whatever makes sense to me without fearing that the wrong belief might have dire consequences.

 

[TheBarrd]

Mmmm...yeah, I see your problem. Promoting atheism would definitely be a violation of CF rules. Sorry, man...I'm not trying to get you into any trouble, honest.

Reading what you did post, I get the picture of a little boy, forced into uncomfortable "Sunday clothes" and dragged along with momma to a dark, depressing place...one of those churches where the windows all have scenes from the crucifixion on them, and a huge cross with Jesus still hanging on it behind the altar...brrr...gives me the shivers just thinking about it.
I've been to churches like that. All "discipline"...and no love. You're quite right...such places are depressing...and creepy. I suppose that, if that were all I was exposed to, I might not want anything to do with it either.
However, you should know...there is a lot more to it than just "buying fire insurance"....

The cross is empty...and so is the tomb.
O, grave, where is thy victory?
O, death, where is thy sting?

The sting of death is swallowed up
In the resurrection of the King...

But there is more to it than even that...
There is unspeakable love.

I don't think they ever told you about that, in your dark, depressing, creepy "church"...

 

[annafullofgrace]

I am so sorry that that is what you experienced about our Lord. I grew up in a church like that. It never made sense to me, so condemning and scary for a child. As I grew older into my teens, I felt so turned off and that I would never be good enough for God. My church never even spoke of Jesus. Sure I saw the cross with him on it on the altar, I didn't know much about this man. All law and no gospel.

I pray that you respond when you feel the Holy Spirit nudges you. I feel such freedom and peace with my relationship with my Jesus. My prayer is that, one day, you will feel it too. No matter where you go or what you do, He will always love you. I want you to know that.

Let me think. I hope can explain and also not break any rules for the forum.

Christianity was not a religion I chose, and it has always seemed depressing, uncomfortable, oppressive, creepy - just like my memories of sitting in church looking at the sun filtering through a stained glass window depicting gruesome scenes from the Bible. For a long time, I didn't believe Christianity, but I thought it might be true. It's nice now to have a clean slate. I can believe whatever makes sense to me without fearing that the wrong belief might have dire consequences.

 

[cloudyday2]

Mmmm...yeah, I see your problem. Promoting atheism would definitely be a violation of CF rules. Sorry, man...I'm not trying to get you into any trouble, honest.

Reading what you did post, I get the picture of a little boy, forced into uncomfortable "Sunday clothes" and dragged along with momma to a dark, depressing place...one of those churches where the windows all have scenes from the crucifixion on them, and a huge cross with Jesus still hanging on it behind the altar...brrr...gives me the shivers just thinking about it.
I've been to churches like that. All "discipline"...and no love. You're quite right...such places are depressing...and creepy. I suppose that, if that were all I was exposed to, I might not want anything to do with it either.
However, you should know...there is a lot more to it than just "buying fire insurance"....

The cross is empty...and so is the tomb.
O, grave, where is thy victory?
O, death, where is thy sting?

The sting of death is swallowed up
In the resurrection of the King...

But there is more to it than even that...
There is unspeakable love.

I don't think they ever told you about that, in your dark, depressing, creepy "church"...

That's a fairly accurate guess. I can still remember wishing that I could go to church in my regular clothes, my father grouchy because the family wasn't getting there as early as he wanted, waiting an hour at coffee hour after the service - we always had to be the last to leave - yuck. Fortunately that all ended when I was about 12, because the Episcopal church changed the prayer book and my parents didn't like the slimy new priest we got (eventually he was defrocked). I remember as an acolyte feeling a little of the warm fuzzies when he was helping me put on my vestments, stroking out the wrinkles, etc. I didn't know about pedophilia at that time, but I have always wondered about that later... ah church.

As a teenager I was exposed to the born-again stuff through Youth for Christ and 700 club, etc. I read my bible through several times as a teenager, but I was mostly interested in the OT historical books. The theology went in one ear and out the other.

Then in college and afterwards, I tried some of the non-denominational churches that were popular in the late 80's and early 90's.

A few years ago I had a mental breakdown and started hallucinating and having delusions with Christian themes. I joined an Eastern Orthodox church, but I stopped attending after a couple of years. I was very confused and did a lot of stupid things (like giving away most of my savings )

Now I'm 48, and I think I have finally overcome the childhood indoctrination in Christianity. I can believe whatever I want without nagging worries. I don't think some type of god is impossible, but I am not very interested or concerned about the nature of that god.

 

[cloudyday2]

I am so sorry that that is what you experienced about our Lord. I grew up in a church like that. It never made sense to me, so condemning and scary for a child. As I grew older into my teens, I felt so turned off and that I would never be good enough for God. My church never even spoke of Jesus. Sure I saw the cross with him on it on the altar, I didn't know much about this man. All law and no gospel.

I pray that you respond when you feel the Holy Spirit nudges you. I feel such freedom and peace with my relationship with my Jesus. My prayer is that, one day, you will feel it too. No matter where you go or what you do, He will always love you. I want you to know that.

Thanks

 

[ViaCrucis]

My understanding is that Europeans don't discuss religion, so that is a possible model too.

Hell is the source of the problem, because Christians who believe in some form of heaven/hell based on religious belief would probably feel distressed to learn that a child or spouse is no longer a Christian.

My particular problem is with my elderly Christian mother. Most of the people I know have some contact with my mother (including my siblings), so if I tell them that I am not a Christian, then the information might reach my mother. So if somebody says something about God or Jesus, I just keep my mouth shut and maybe nod politely. I feel bad for treating my Christian friends and family like children who mustn't learn the truth about Santa, but that seems to be the only course. I wouldn't want to debate, but I would like to be able to say "actually I don't believe that anymore".

I can sympathize to a small extent. Both sides of my family are quite conservative and quite strictly Baptist or Baptist-ish. For the most part I avoid discussing religion and politics with family in order to avoid confrontation. I'm not exactly sure which they'd be bothered by more, that I'm a Lutheran or that social politics are left-of-center.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[annafullofgrace]

I bet on some level we can all relate a tiny bit. My husband and I became Lutheran about six years ago and it's still very awkward with my husbands family. Very devout Catholics and his mother in particular has still not gotten over it. We choose not to talk about it, but she brings it up occasionally. F she were curious, it would be easier to deal with....however, she is very condescending.

I can sympathize to a small extent. Both sides of my family are quite conservative and quite strictly Baptist or Baptist-ish. For the most part I avoid discussing religion and politics with family in order to avoid confrontation. I'm not exactly sure which they'd be bothered by more, that I'm a Lutheran or that social politics are left-of-center.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[oi_antz]

That's a fairly accurate guess. I can still remember wishing that I could go to church in my regular clothes, my father grouchy because the family wasn't getting there as early as he wanted, waiting an hour at coffee hour after the service - we always had to be the last to leave - yuck. Fortunately that all ended when I was about 12, because the Episcopal church changed the prayer book and my parents didn't like the slimy new priest we got (eventually he was defrocked). I remember as an acolyte feeling a little of the warm fuzzies when he was helping me put on my vestments, stroking out the wrinkles, etc. I didn't know about pedophilia at that time, but I have always wondered about that later... ah church.

As a teenager I was exposed to the born-again stuff through Youth for Christ and 700 club, etc. I read my bible through several times as a teenager, but I was mostly interested in the OT historical books. The theology went in one ear and out the other.

Then in college and afterwards, I tried some of the non-denominational churches that were popular in the late 80's and early 90's.

A few years ago I had a mental breakdown and started hallucinating and having delusions with Christian themes. I joined an Eastern Orthodox church, but I stopped attending after a couple of years. I was very confused and did a lot of stupid things (like giving away most of my savings )

Now I'm 48, and I think I have finally overcome the childhood indoctrination in Christianity. I can believe whatever I want without nagging worries. I don't think some type of god is impossible, but I am not very interested or concerned about the nature of that god.

Sounds like you have believed at some time what you have been told without really understanding it or accepting it. It sounds too like you have been offended by people doing the same thing and acting toward you or others according to the judgements that those beliefs impose. I think the truth that Christianity contains is quite agreeable though (the story of Noah as a parable shows that God doesn't want a wild world, but if there is something precious then He will cultivate it to harvest). So the overall message is that there is some goodness that He wants to nurture and keep, but there is some evil that is basically a by-product to dispose of. Most people will agree that is good, if they are confronted with that message and are comfortable to be honest. Yet for some reason, very few of us value the idea when it is placed beside a conflicting temporal thing that we like. An example is given with Esau and Jacob about the soup and inheritance. But yeah, you've suffered an infliction in Jesus' name that makes it hard to forgive Him. I will offer some prayers for you about that, and hope that you can find a path to a comfortable relationship with Him.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

.

 

[cloudyday2]

Sounds like you have believed at some time what you have been told without really understanding it or accepting it. It sounds too like you have been offended by people doing the same thing and acting toward you or others according to the judgements that those beliefs impose. I think the truth that Christianity contains is quite agreeable though (the story of Noah as a parable shows that God doesn't want a wild world, but if there is something precious then He will cultivate it to harvest). So the overall message is that there is some goodness that He wants to nurture and keep, but there is some evil that is basically a by-product to dispose of. Most people will agree that is good, if they are confronted with that message and are comfortable to be honest. Yet for some reason, very few of us value the idea when it is placed beside a conflicting temporal thing that we like. An example is given with Esau and Jacob about the soup and inheritance. But yeah, you've suffered an infliction in Jesus' name that makes it hard to forgive Him. I will offer some prayers for you about that, and hope that you can find a path to a comfortable relationship with Him.

I suspect that you believe so strongly in Christianity that you can't imagine how anybody else who truly believes and understands could ever stop believing? I would call this the "no true Christian" argument ( No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

I'm not sure if you make that assumption only about me or if you make that assumption about all ex-Christians. If you are only talking about me, then that is fine. I never was very successful at believing in Christianity. However, if you are talking about ex-Christians in general, then you are wrong. There is an ex-Christian forum with extimonies that you could browse to see that many of them were very sincere believers at one time.

 

[cloudyday2]

I bet on some level we can all relate a tiny bit. My husband and I became Lutheran about six years ago and it's still very awkward with my husbands family. Very devout Catholics and his mother in particular has still not gotten over it. We choose not to talk about it, but she brings it up occasionally. F she were curious, it would be easier to deal with....however, she is very condescending.

That's very similar to my sister's situation. Her husband is Catholic, but they switched to Lutheran. Her husband's mother prays for their souls, but fortunately they are on good terms.