"Ask the Pastor" radio show with Gregory Dickow

[MrPolo]

So it seems all are in agreement, Pastor Dickow needs theological improvement?

 

[RND]

I haven't seen all your proofs, but the "all have sinned" is something that needs to be given explanation for defending the Immaculate Conception, not perpetual Virginity.

In what way? Catholicism believes that Jesus obtained His sinless nature from His mother.

Note the following papal decree:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

Hence, if anyone shall dare -- which God forbid! -- to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart. ...
Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. ...

Source:

Ineffabilis Deus, Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)
​

The decree of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, that Mary was sinless from her conception in her mother's womb, is considered to be an ex cathedra teaching, from Peter's Chair, an infallible article of faith binding on all Roman Catholics. Catholics are also taught that Mary never sinned her entire life:

411 ... Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306
306 Cf. Pius IXs Ineffabilis Deus: DS 2803; Council of Trent: DS 1573 [

Sixth Session, Canon XXIII on Justification].
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, published by Ligouri Publications, English translation copyright 1994 by the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.--Libreria Editrice Vaticana, bearing the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, page 104.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, online at the Vatican.
​

Catholics also teach that Jesus Christ inherited His sinless immaculate nature from His mother Mary:
... I admit we [Catholics] speak glowingly of Mary (who doesn't love and speak well of their mother?), but in this context I was being the prosaic, theological one. I wasn't using poetic, superlative language about the Blessed Virgin. I was simply laying out the logic: Jesus was the sinless Son of God. He took his sinless human nature from his mother. For that human nature to be really human and really sinless its human source must have been uniquely pure. This seems to be a simple, logical, and modest claim.
Source:

Mary: A Catholic / Evangelical Debate, By Dwight Longenecker, David Gustafson, Gracewing Publishing, 2003, ISBN 0852445822, pg. 55.

I think her perpetual Virginity fits much better with Mary as figure of the Church (would take a long post to get into that typology) which is the virginal Bride of Christ, as well as prophecies like Ezekiel 44:2 which speaks of the gate by which the Lord enters being shut forever. St. Augustine made this connection too:

Isn't the church full of former sinners?

 

[MrPolo]

If one does not know how the bible was compiled does that negate what is written within the pages of scripture?

Definitely not, but it does show that person to rely critically on Sacred Tradition...though they know it not.

 

[MrPolo]

In what way?

Because in theory someone could be a virgin physically but still be a sinner. So going by Scripture alone, citing "all have sinned" wouldn't necessarily debunk someone being a virgin forever.

 

[Albion]

.

 

[RND]

Because in theory someone could be a virgin physically but still be a sinner.

Um, that's more than a theory.

So going by Scripture alone, citing "all have sinned" wouldn't necessarily debunk someone being a virgin forever.

But it would debunk and negate the notion that Jesus got His sinlessness from His mother.

 

[Albion]

Definitely not, but it does show that person to rely critically on Sacred Tradition...though they know it not.

As a matter of fact, it doesn't show that to be the case, either. Not at all.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MrPolo Definitely not, but it does show that person to rely critically on Sacred Tradition...though they know it not.

As a matter of fact, it doesn't show that to be the case, either. Not at all.

What sacred traditions do Protestant Evangelicals/Ministers/Pastors hold to today? Surely it is not the same as those of the Catholics and Orthodox.

 

[Albion]

But it would debunk and negate the notion that Jesus got His sinlessness from His mother.

But it isn't taught that this is why Jesus was sinless.

He was God; that's why he was sinless. The allegedly sinless conception of Mary was just something added on later as part of the drive to show more and more honor towards her.

 

[NumberOneSon]

Considering Mrs. Blavatsky's views I stick with the obvious.

Blavatsky isn't a reliable source when it comes to ancient religions. She was a spiritualist, not a Cosmologist or a scholar of any kind. Using Blavatsky's views on Egyptology would be like trying to use D.M. Murdock as a trustworthy source on Christianity. I've bumped into one of Blavatsky's biggest disciples online (Jordan Maxwell), and his take on religious history is definitely not one that inspires confidence. I'd stick with accredited sources when it comes to Egyptology, or any religion for that matter.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[Albion]

What sacred traditions do Protestant Evangelicals/Ministers/Pastors hold to today? Surely it is not the same as those of the Catholics and Orthodox.

Protestants do not hold to the theory of "Sacred Tradition."

They have some traditions or customs they hold dear, of course, but "Sacred Tradition" is a term that refers to an alleged stream of belief that is extra-Biblical and which is guided by God as another (after Scripture) source of Revelation.

Protestantism rejects all of that.

 

[RND]

But it isn't taught that this is why Jesus was sinless.

In catholicism it is.

He was God; that's why he was sinless. The allegedly sinless conception of Mary was just something added on later as part of the drive to show more and more honor towards her.

Exactly.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Protestants do not hold to the theory of "Sacred Tradition."

They have some traditions or customs they hold dear, of course, but "Sacred Tradition" is a term that refers to an alleged stream of belief that is extra-Biblical and which is guided by God as another (after Scripture) source of Revelation.

Protestantism rejects all of that.

Thank you. Matt 28:20 comes to mind and what I read here is that we keep the teachings and commands of Jesus.

The greek word #4930 is a rather interesting word in the NT.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to be keeping all as much as I command to ye.
And behold! I with ye am all the days till the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age/aiwnoV <165>. Amen [Matt 24:3/Hebrew 9:26]

 

[RND]

Blavatsky isn't a reliable source when it comes to ancient religions. She was a spiritualist, not a Cosmologist or a scholar of any kind. Using Blavatsky's views on Egyptology would be like trying to use D.M. Murdock as a trustworthy source on Christianity. I've bumped into one of Blavatsky's biggest disciples online (Jordan Maxwell), and his take on religious history is definitely not one that inspires confidence. I'd stick with accredited sources when it comes to Egyptology, or any religion for that matter.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Blavatsky's works were channeled through spirits.

 

[Albion]

In catholicism it is.

No, it's not. Jesus' sinlessness is a function of his own divine nature. That's the Roman Catholic (and most everyone else's) POV. Roman Catholicism theorizes that God would have provided, in Christ's mother, a sinless being as a fitting vessel through whom the Son of God would be nurtured and born, but it is not held as anything necessary in order for Jesus to be sinless.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No, it's not. Jesus' sinlessness is a function of his own divine nature. That's the Roman Catholic (and most everyone else's POV). Roman Catholicism theorizes that God would have provided, in Christ's mother, a sinless being as a fitting vessel through whom the Son of God would be born, but that doesn't mean that it was necessary in order for Jesus to be sinless.

I think that is an excellent point...

 

[RND]

No, it's not.

Yes it is and I gave examples.

Note the following papal decree:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

Hence, if anyone shall dare -- which God forbid! -- to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart. ...
Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. ...

Source:

Ineffabilis Deus, Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)
​

The decree of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, that Mary was sinless from her conception in her mother's womb, is considered to be an ex cathedra teaching, from Peter's Chair, an infallible article of faith binding on all Roman Catholics. Catholics are also taught that Mary never sinned her entire life:

411 ... Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306
306 Cf. Pius IXs Ineffabilis Deus: DS 2803; Council of Trent: DS 1573 [

Sixth Session, Canon XXIII on Justification].
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, published by Ligouri Publications, English translation copyright 1994 by the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.--Libreria Editrice Vaticana, bearing the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, page 104.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, online at the Vatican.
​

Catholics also teach that Jesus Christ inherited His sinless immaculate nature from His mother Mary:
... I admit we [Catholics] speak glowingly of Mary (who doesn't love and speak well of their mother?), but in this context I was being the prosaic, theological one. I wasn't using poetic, superlative language about the Blessed Virgin. I was simply laying out the logic: Jesus was the sinless Son of God. He took his sinless human nature from his mother. For that human nature to be really human and really sinless its human source must have been uniquely pure. This seems to be a simple, logical, and modest claim.
Source:

Mary: A Catholic / Evangelical Debate,By Dwight Longenecker, David Gustafson, Gracewing Publishing, 2003, ISBN 0852445822, pg. 55.

Jesus' sinlessness is a function of his own divine nature.

I would say His sinlessness came as a direct result of the bond between Father and Son.

That's the Roman Catholic (and most everyone else's) POV. Roman Catholicism theorizes that God would have provided, in Christ's mother, a sinless being as a fitting vessel through whom the Son of God would be nurtured and born, but it is not held as anything necessary in order for Jesus to be sinless.

Not according to what was provided. Here's more:

[FONT=times new roman,times,serif]... So much is Mary's very being full of grace that this title [Immaculate Conception] serves to identify Mary in place of her own name. It is also true that no person with a fallen nature could possess a fullness of grace, a plentitude of grace, appropriate only for the woman who was to give God the Son an identical, immaculate human nature. Mary was conceived in providence to be the woman who would give her same immaculate nature to God when God became man. Certainly we can see the fittingness in God receiving a human nature from a human mother, and receiving an immaculate nature from a truly immaculate mother.[/FONT]
Source:

The Four Marian Dogmas, By Mark Miravalle, Mother of all Peoples web site, Friday, 06 January 2006, excerpted from Introduction to Mary: The Heart of Marian Doctrine and Devotion, Queenship Publishing, 1993, ISBN 1-882972-06-6, pg. 39.


... we affirm that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word of God, who in His divine nature is from all eternity begotten of the Father, consubstantial with Him, was in the fullness of time again begotten, by be born of the Virgin, thus taking to Himself, from her maternal womb, a human nature of the same substance with hers.
Source

The Faith Of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons, 38th edition, 1891 by John Murphy & Company, Baltimore, R. Washbourne, London, page 198.

 

[Albion]

Yes it is and I gave examples.

Note the following papal decree:

We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

Hence, if anyone shall dare -- which God forbid! -- to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart. ...
Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. ...

Source:

Ineffabilis Deus, Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854)

​

The decree of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, that Mary was sinless from her conception in her mother's womb, is considered to be an ex cathedra teaching, from Peter's Chair, an infallible article of faith binding on all Roman Catholics. Catholics are also taught that Mary never sinned her entire life:

411 ... Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.306
306 Cf. Pius IXs Ineffabilis Deus: DS 2803; Council of Trent: DS 1573 [

Sixth Session, Canon XXIII on Justification].
Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, published by Ligouri Publications, English translation copyright 1994 by the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.--Libreria Editrice Vaticana, bearing the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, page 104.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, online at the Vatican.
​

None of that even refers to the source of Jesus' sinlessness, making it irrelevant to this discussion.

​

Catholics also teach that Jesus Christ inherited His sinless immaculate nature from His mother Mary:

This author seems to think so, huh? What you need are official Church statements.

... we affirm that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, the Word of God, who in His divine nature is from all eternity begotten of the Father, consubstantial with Him, was in the fullness of time again begotten, by be born of the Virgin, thus taking to Himself, from her maternal womb, a human nature of the same substance with hers.
Source

The Faith Of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons, 38th edition, 1891 by John Murphy & Company, Baltimore, R. Washbourne, London, page 198.

And that passage does not deal with the issue, speaking rather of the source of Jesus' physical nature.

 

[RND]

None of that even refers to the source of Jesus' sinlessness, and so it irrelevant to this discussion.

The source of Jesus' sinlessness was the Holy Spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This kind of rhapsodizing does seem to appeal to Catholic writers, but that doesn't make it a church position.

The church's position is clearly expressed in the notion of the church that Mary was sinless.

And that passage does not deal with the issue, speaking rather of the source of Jesus' physical nature.

".... a human nature of the same substance with hers...." That is a "sinless" nature. Catholics don't believe Mary was a sinner, thus she was "sinless." Thus by extension Jesus got His sinless nature from His mother.

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

494 At the announcement that she would give birth to "the Son of the Most High" without knowing man, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Mary responded with the obedience of faith, certain that "with God nothing will be impossible": "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word."139 Thus, giving her consent to God's word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God's grace:140

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.

 

[Albion]

Before we get too caught up in the cut and paste machine, let's keep clearly in focus what your mistake was.

You said:

But it would debunk and negate the notion that Jesus got His sinlessness from His mother.

On the contrary, Jesus' sinlessness is not dependent upon any sinless in his mother, nor does a single thing you've posted say anything to the contrary!.

And you said:

In catholicism it is.

...in response to my comment that Mary's alleged sinlessness is not the reason for Catholicism considering Jesus to be sinless.

Your contention is disproved. Catholicism does NOT teach that Jesus sinlessness depends upon Mary being sinless.