And back to Duggar news

[puregrl]

And josh really disgusts me. He is a hypocrite and a liar. I feel awful for his family as they now have even more to deal with in respect to him.

 

[sdmsanjose]

His family and church encouraged him, despite his sexual abuse for a year or more of five young girls, to be a very public face in the media and essentially earn his living by talking about Christian values about sex. He also saw no legal ramifications, and very little any other form of ramifications, from his early illicit sexually abusive behavior. IMO, this had to foster an idea that he could basically get away with any sexual behavior he wanted while still being given kudos

Joshua Duggar has chosen his perverted sex over his proclaimed Christian faith on several occasions. The disgusting part is him trying to be a spokesman for Christian values about sex. He kind of reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart. The Bible, other resources, and your intelligence are a much better source for Christian values on sex. If one insists on looking to a Christian for sex values, a much better choice would be Billy Graham that has over 70 years without any sexual failures. A 27-28 year old man (Josh Duggar) that has several sex failures being any kind of help for Christian Values about sex is a mockery.


The Duggars are on TV because they have a very unorthodox view and interpretation of the Christian faith. This is very dramatic and draws in TV viewers. Almost all Americans have the ability and resources to get credible information about the topics that the Duggars present. There is no need to allow the Duggars to influence us in any way. However, they can serve as a boredom killer and spike your emotions on occasion just like Jerry Springer.

 

[DZoolander]

Exactly.

The reason the Duggars are on TV is because they're a reproductive freakshow - no more - no less. They've also parlayed that into tapping into the bizarre desire a large part of America's Christian community has to indiscriminately accept testimony regardless of who might be giving it.

It's the same phenomenon that drums up support for things like Christian rock or Kirk Cameron movies - no matter how awful they may be. Deep down you know it's trivial nonsense and utterly forgettable - but the fact they're saying "Jesus" means you ought to be looking at it/listening to it/supporting it.

 

[HannahT]

I feel awful for his wife and children. Majority of the time within their movement the wife is partially to blame, or close to 100%...due to lack of sex, attention, honor, etc.

I have a feeling she and the kids will have more on their plate besides dealing with their betrayal.

I highly doubt Josh got the help he truly needed when he was younger either. That happens way to often within these types of belief systems. Wail at the alter, ask for forgiveness...then you hush and move on. If you can't? Your dwelling on it to much, thinking to much of yourself, your holding onto your bitterness, etc. They get to legalistic about scripture, and give the impression that once you say the magic words, and do the magic dance? (repent and wail) It's over, and maybe they will throw a little bit of counseling in..that's sadly very ineffective.

They almost seem to shame people that need more than that...and that just encourages people to stay silent.

This whole circumstance is downright heart breaking.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Luke 17:4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

The instruction here is clear: we are to assume that the repentance is genuine.

True. Forgive him doesn't necessarily mean trust him, though. It also doesn't mean he shouldn't face consequences. I think most people agree on those points, but I'm not sure.

 

[Deidre32]

We know way, James says: "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." If your going to set yourself up as an example to others then you have to lead by the example you set. Walk your talk.

well, the problem is when people 'brag' about their faith...i never think that is a good idea.

 

[Hetta]

well, the problem is when people 'brag' about their faith...i never think that is a good idea.

The parents have bragged all through these shows that theirs is the superior way to raise children. No media, no pop music, no mixing with 'undesirables', no public school, patriarchy rules ... and yet somehow they have raised a child molester/adulterer/inappropriate content addict. That simply makes it clear to me that cutting your kids off from everything is not the superior way - which I had figured out years ago anyway. In fact, people like that with their restrictive child raising, can end up with kids who go absolutely wild when they do get out into the world. There is an in-between way to raise your kids, where you do things in moderation and don't assume that you can lecture everyone else on the "right" way to do things.

 

[Deidre32]

The parents have bragged all through these shows that theirs is the superior way to raise children. No media, no pop music, no mixing with 'undesirables', no public school, patriarchy rules ... and yet somehow they have raised a child molester/adulterer/inappropriate content addict. That simply makes it clear to me that cutting your kids off from everything is not the superior way - which I had figured out years ago anyway. In fact, people like that with their restrictive child raising, can end up with kids who go absolutely wild when they do get out into the world. There is an in-between way to raise your kids, where you do things in moderation and don't assume that you can lecture everyone else on the "right" way to do things.

The fact that they wouldn't let the kids be 'subject' to tv shows, media, etc...but yet star in their own television program, shows off the bat...how they don't practice what they preach. Just don't say things that you don't mean. I agree with what you say here, but at the same token...he made his own choices, and I can only blame the parents so much. The parents however created an environment that was too restrictive, and perhaps emotionally abusive, to be honest. It's a sad story, anyway you look at it.

 

[mkgal1]

if the fruit that was produced showed similar in more than one child, yes. However this was one, so no. And no nature does not mean natural. Nature (born that way) vs Nurture (raised that way).

This family isn't the only one that follows the teaching of ATI (Advanced Training Institute). Just because every person that follows this philosophy (?--not sure what else to call it) doesn't become a child molester or adulterer doesn't mean the teaching is wholesome and good. Plenty of people were raised in unhealthy environments and managed to become healthy, productive, and sound members of society (in spite of all that).

When I mentioned "natural".....I meant that it seems that if it were inherent in his psyche to behave this way....it'd be almost out of his control (and I *don't* buy that)---it would be who he is (and I don't buy that either). I think that's a big part of the teaching at ATI---it does seem to release JD from responsibility of his choices (and places the blame on the devil...on females.....or our "evil society"....etc). He *has* a choice to not hurt others (and himself). I also believe this doesn't have to remain who he is.

Here's a link that's full of information on Gothard/ATI and the destructive nature of it all (I think we're only getting a glimmer of it here....with JD). http://www.recoveringgrace.org/

This page is where the personal stories are: http://www.recoveringgrace.org/category/personal/

“We were promised a beautiful love story ‘without regrets’ if we followed courtship teachings and authority principles. My husband and I have so many regrets about how we ‘got to the marriage altar’ since those principles put us in bondage, sparked such a nightmare in my family, and left me with significant emotional damage. We were promised a love story we could share with others to help them see a better way, with God’s hand evident at every turn. We ended up with a story that causes others to respond with, ‘What?! You can’t be serious!” and serves to show others a destructive way to avoid.” J. K.

And finally, for many, we regret the opportunity in our youth to come to know God as He truly is, as we struggle with being afraid of God’s wrath. Or being afraid that someone else will spiritually trick us with more empty, unfulfilling promises. We are paralyzed: too afraid to approach God, yet too afraid to leave Him.

Those of us who have found Jesus in spite of our upbringing, wrestle with the knowledge that the misery and sometimes terrible things we suffered in our upbringing were done to us in the NAME of Christ. A false Christ. That makes all of this a lot worse than being raised without Him in the first place. We were raised with the most subtle of lies, “This is the real Christ”, when in fact it was not Him at all.

These “universal, non-optional” principles not only failed to give us the promised success and happiness, they left us with more regrets than can be counted.

At minimum.....it's *not* the guaranteed formula to a wholesome marriage and family (which it seems to promise).

 

[mkgal1]

Another blog post that describes the harm of the ATI teachings:

https://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2015/05/23/gothards-ati-and-the-duggar-familys-secrets/

 

[ImaginaryDay]

After his latest apology, the cynic in me wonders if he's actually ashamed of what he's done, or that he got caught.

One can't help noticing the wording of the admission: "I have been the biggest hypocrite ever..." = past tense.

 

[mkgal1]

One can't help noticing the wording of the admission: "I have been the biggest hypocrite ever..." = past tense.

Good point (I'd not noticed that).

It also seems that (according to the literature from ATI) all that's required is "freeing one's conscious by confession"---there's nothing about change of behavior.

 

[Dave-W]

True. Forgive him doesn't necessarily mean trust him, though. It also doesn't mean he shouldn't face consequences. I think most people agree on those points, but I'm not sure.

Forgiveness is not the same as trusting. But many believe that once God forgives something we can all go back to acting like X never happened in the first place.

Not true.

 

[mkgal1]

Forgiveness is not the same as trusting. But many believe that once God forgives something we can all go back to acting like X never happened in the first place.

Not true.

Exactly. That's such a huge misguided area. I read this morning that Jessa (Josh's sister) posted 1st John 1:9 on FB ("If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" ) and that started a whole dialogue about forgiveness.

I'm glad Anna's brother seems to have a good grasp on what's "righteous"....it just seems he's lost his influence on Anna with so many others having a different opinion. I hope she eventually takes him and his wife up on their offer to truly support her (and her children) through this.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...calls-cheating-husband-josh-article-1.2336063

 

[Dave-W]

It also seems that (according to the literature from ATI) all that's required is "freeing one's conscious by confession"---there's nothing about change of behavior.

Yeah - that is a poor excuse for biblical repentance. Why does no one teach that any more?

 

[mkgal1]

Yeah - that is a poor excuse for biblical repentance. Why does no one teach that any more?

That's a really good question. I think this is a case of layered issues causing the "perfect storm".

Do you think the same attitude would be displayed (the, "God is faithful to forgive" attitude) if this were Michelle Duggar that was discovered to have been having online Facetime chats with other men? Because.....I don't think so.

 

[HondaMan]

I defended him first time. A 14 year old made a mistake. We're all sinners.



But now....well, that's a different story. Let's put it that way.

I feel bad for his wife.

 

[mkgal1]

I do, too. Not only did her husband betray her.....but, IMO, her parents had betrayed her in the beliefs they imposed on her. This article describes what I feel are the main issues:

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lets-talk-about-anna-post-goes-viral/

The flip side of the strict sexual prohibitions in the culture to which the Duggars belong is a belief, sometimes bordering on the prurient, in the unbridled nature of male sexuality. Men are often portrayed as sexually ravenous, constantly on the edge of losing control of their libidos. Women, meanwhile, are generally seen as guardians of purity who must not stoke men’s passions.

Let me tell you: Anna Duggar is in the worst position she could possibly be in right now. Anna Duggar was crippled by her parents by receiving no education, having no work experience (or life experience, for that matter) and then was shackled to this loser because his family was famous in their religious circle. Anna Duggar was taught that her sole purpose in life, the most meaningful thing she could do, was to be chaste and proper, a devout wife, and a mother. Anna Duggar did that! Anna Duggar followed the rules that were imposed on her from the get-go and this is what she got in reward- a husband who she found out, in the span of 6 months, not only molested his own sisters, but was unfaithful to her in the most humiliating way possible…. She lived up to the standard that men set for her of being chaste and Godly and in return, the man who demanded this of her sought women who were the opposite. “Be this,” they told her. She was. It wasn’t enough.

 

[LinkH]

mkgal1, I feel bad for Anna Duggar. Josh sinned and it was exposed publically, but what did Anna do.

But Anna Duggar did what she was supposed to do by remaining chaste and godly (presumably). These are good things. Bad things happen to people who stay chaste. That's no reason not to live godly for the Lord.

I feel like that little blurb presented something positive in a little bit negative light.

 

[Dave-W]

Do you think the same attitude would be displayed (the, "God is faithful to forgive" attitude) if this were Michelle Duggar that was discovered to have been having online Facetime chats with other men? Because.....I don't think so.

In some circles - definitely not. In others; probably so. Like the pastor I know of who married a woman who had been divorced 4 times already for unbiblical reasons and now "had the guy God wanted her to have from the beginning." She directed the choir and her immediate ex husband was the lead tenor.