Age old question

[2404]

Why would an omniscient omnipotent being create someone like Lucifer and make trouble for Himself?

 

[James Is Back]

Why would an omniscient omnipotent being create someone like Lucifer and make trouble for Himself?

Maybe this article will answer your question - http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html

 

[2404]

Maybe this article will answer your question - http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html

Thank you...

 

[1213]

Why would an omniscient omnipotent being create someone like Lucifer and make trouble for Himself?

I think Biblical answer is this:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

And maybe the reason is also that Lucifer doesn’t really cause trouble to God, but actually is beneficial for him in spite of all evil. If we think for example Jesus, it may be taught that killing him would be beneficial for God’s enemies. It was not; Jesus rose from death and gave courage for his disciples to spread the word so that even we may get the message. In the end, all evil things that God has allowed may work for His benefit. That is why I believe they are allowed, even though they may feel painful at some point.

 

[2404]

I think Biblical answer is this:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

And maybe the reason is also that Lucifer doesn’t really cause trouble to God, but actually is beneficial for him in spite of all evil. If we think for example Jesus, it may be taught that killing him would be beneficial for God’s enemies. It was not; Jesus rose from death and gave courage for his disciples to spread the word so that even we may get the message. In the end, all evil things that God has allowed may work for His benefit. That is why I believe they are allowed, even though they may feel painful at some point.

Good point - fits into being omniscient.
Any thought what that benefit might look like???

 

[1213]

Good point - fits into being omniscient.
Any thought what that benefit might look like???

Benefit is that now we can really learn what good and evil means. Evil is to reject God and be without him and his protection an good is to be in connection with God and love as He has told. It is also beneficial that now we can see why eternal life is for righteous. Others would make it eternal suffering.

 

[Korah]

Sounds like the same stuff I heard from you over on DebatingChristianity.org before I got banned there.
Maybe you should stay there.
To the subject--why assume God created Satan? I would say that's later mythology. Even if one accepts Genesis 1 to 11 as literal (I'm a great believer in Adam and Eve myself, but several times longer ago than per Ussher), it's like the snake was already "there", maybe having come in from long-prior worlds. I look upon "war in heaven" as having been between our God and long-long-ago extra-terrestrials, a war that God won but with the provision that the defeated demonic forces would be allowed to keep on and hopefully be converted. Looks like God should have demanded harsher terms in this peace treaty.
OK, I've now read the link to the "answer" in Post #2.
Same old same old that makes God worse than Satan. God ordained it all, that Satan and his demons and the great majority of mankind all go to Hell. so much better if God had just slept seven days instead of just on the 7th.

 

[2404]

Benefit is that now we can really learn what good and evil means. Evil is to reject God and be without him and his protection an good is to be in connection with God and love as He has told. It is also beneficial that now we can see why eternal life is for righteous. Others would make it eternal suffering.

Alright, I am with you as you say for the discernment between good and evil. But how can you put them on par by saying evil has eternal life. Only God has eternal life and evil has no part with God. I will go with you if you say eternal separation but there is no such thing as an eternal hell.

 

[1213]

...Only God has eternal life and evil has no part with God. I will go with you if you say eternal separation but there is no such thing as an eternal hell.

I didn’t mean that unrighteous or evil people would live eternally. Hell is eternal according to the Bible, but I understand Bible so that no one lives in hell eternally.

 

[pastor marty]

Why would an omniscient omnipotent being create someone like Lucifer and make trouble for Himself?

Only GOD knows the total reason. But here's a few thoughts me & my cousin Jesus kicked around one night @ a beer&brats bonfire.!) The Lord invented Chess & needed someone 2 play against.2)In a Universes/Cosmoses Eternal Heavenly scheme of things, Earth is a microscopic mite living on the back of a flea with a lifespan of 15 min.God made us;Jesus redeemed us. (personally, I wouldn't have wasted that much time/love on a colony of suicidal cannibal ants !) Why evil exists is not as important as how do I avoid it ?? That and not stepping in my neighbors fresh Terrier poop when when groping blindly 4 the Sunday paper.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Why make free willed beings?
For His greater Glory.
The potential (not the creation of) for evil is necessary if God is going to create truly free willed beings.

 

[klutedavid]

Why make free willed beings?
For His greater Glory.
The potential (not the creation of) for evil is necessary if God is going to create truly free willed beings.

Hello Dr BubbaLove.

I noticed that you used the term 'free will', probably meaning, that man can exercise
his will, free from any external influence. Is that what you meant?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hello Dr BubbaLove.

I noticed that you used the term 'free will', probably meaning, that man can exercise
his will, free from any external influence. Is that what you meant?

Why would I think God unable to influence men - or for that matter men unable to influence men, that would be kind of silly don't you think?

By "free will" I mean what the Church teaches about how and why we were made.

" 1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude. (1721)

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach."​

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...sm-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#1731

 

[klutedavid]

Why would I think God unable to influence men - or for that matter men unable to influence men, that would be kind of silly don't you think?

By "free will" I mean what the Church teaches about how and why we were made.

" 1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude. (1721)

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach."​

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...sm-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#1731

Hello BubbaLove.

I asked you whether man can exercise his will, free from any external influence.

To which you replied.

Why would I think God unable to influence men - or for that matter men unable to influence men,
that would be kind of silly don't you think?

If God can influence the will of man, then by definition, the will of man cannot be free.

Free will itself implies that man's will is free, that is, free from any external influence (God).

If men can influence men, then the will of man cannot be free at all.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I do not agree influence means one does not have free will.

Ultimately, assuming no mental incapacity. it is still the individual that decides - which is the only way the individual can (as the Catechism puts it) get "praise or blame, merit or reproach" for we do. IOW having a free will allows us to be held accountable for our actions.

 

[klutedavid]

I do not agree influence means one does not have free will.

Ultimately, assuming no mental incapacity. it is still the individual that decides - which is the only way the individual can (as the Catechism puts it) get "praise or blame, merit or reproach" for we do. IOW having a free will allows us to be held accountable for our actions.

Hello BubbaLove.

Your usage of the term 'free will' is in conflict with the dictionary definition.

Free will
1. freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by
divine intervention (Merriam Webster)

You said the following in your last post.

I do not agree influence means one does not have free will.

Your claiming that your will is free? Free of any external influence?

Free to think and act, beyond the constraints of God's designated limitations on your
will. I don't think so BubbaLove, your will is compressed into serving God or the devil.

You are not free at all, to exert your will beyond these designated boundaries.

Two options and only two options, and we are heavily influenced by both.

Before Christ, you served the devil's will, after Christ you are hard pressed at
best to serve Christ's will.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Again influence is not the same as will. God does not force us to love Him. He could but does not.

 

[klutedavid]

Again influence is not the same as will. God does not force us to love Him. He could but does not.

Hello BubbaLove.

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Your will is utterly useless, ultimately it is God that has mercy.

Love by the way is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, it is not a fruit of the human will.

 

[ob77]

Why would an omniscient omnipotent being create someone like Lucifer and make trouble for Himself?

Sort of like asking which one of your kids is not going to turn out to be an ax murderer. Lucifer was the guardian of the throne, created full pattern as such of the Archangel class. For eons, Lucifer did what he was supposed to do, but became jealous when God had his own begotten sons come on the scene, for Lucifer had to take a back seat to these elohim and he did not like it and so, he devised a way to sway at least a third of these sons to turn against the father and follow Lucifer. War in Heaven ensued and Michael and his angels fought and Lucifer and his angels fought ( and we have no idea for how long) and Lucifer prevailed not. This is when he lost his name Lucifer, and gained the name Satan. He has been a pain in the you know what ever since.

 

[rnmomof7]

Why would an omniscient omnipotent being create someone like Lucifer and make trouble for Himself?

For His Glory