Age old question

[rnmomof7]

Sort of like asking which one of your kids is not going to turn out to be an ax murderer. Lucifer was the guardian of the throne, created full pattern as such of the Archangel class. For eons, Lucifer did what he was supposed to do, but became jealous when God had his own begotten sons come on the scene, for Lucifer had to take a back seat to these elohim and he did not like it and so, he devised a way to sway at least a third of these sons to turn against the father and follow Lucifer. War in Heaven ensued and Michael and his angels fought and Lucifer and his angels fought ( and we have no idea for how long) and Lucifer prevailed not. This is when he lost his name Lucifer, and gained the name Satan. He has been a pain in the you know what ever since.

The New Testament tells us that the plan of salvation existed before the foundation of the earth...
So that tells us that the fall was also planned before the foundation of the earth
As we know Satan was a central figure in the fall

So we can see that even the fall of Satan was because of the will of God..

The plan of the salvation of a fallen word began with the rebellion of Satan

 

[rnmomof7]

Again influence is not the same as will. God does not force us to love Him. He could but does not.

God gives us the ability to love him ... without His grace we could never love the God of the scripture , we would never seek Him or want to be His.

 

[Abcdefg017]

It's like asking a loving and caring mother: you knew your child wouldn't listen to you. You knew having a child meant that they would grow into a teenager and rebel. Knowing all that, why did you keep the child?

Another example could be asking a kid if he/she wants broccoli or ice cream for dinner. You know that they will choose ice cream. Knowing that why did you even give them a choice?

Now let's kind of expand it:
Humans make bad choices all the time. But why is this freedom of choice so important that we demand the government stay out of our choice making abilities? If we know we will make wrong choices in the future, why not stop this madness now and have someone else make all out choices for us?

 

[rnmomof7]

It's like asking a loving and caring mother: you knew your child wouldn't listen to you. You knew having a child meant that they would grow into a teenager and rebel. Knowing all that, why did you keep the child?

Another example could be asking a kid if he/she wants broccoli or ice cream for dinner. You know that they will choose ice cream. Knowing that why did you even give them a choice?

Now let's kind of expand it:
Humans make bad choices all the time. But why is this freedom of choice so important that we demand the government stay out of our choice making abilities? If we know we will make wrong choices in the future, why not stop this madness now and have someone else make all out choices for us?

If God did not desire and ordain the fall.. being omniscient He knew the outcome before it happened ..So He could have put the trees outside the garden, He could have cast satan to the moon ... God could have prevented the fall if that was His will.

No His will was for man to fall.. He placed the trees where He did, and put Satan into that garden (remember satan can do nothing without Gods permission) ...

God ordained the fall for His glory .. .

He predestined it before the foundation of the earth and He ordained that Christ would reconcile His children to Himself..

 

[2404]

If God did not desire and ordain the fall.. being omniscient He knew the outcome before it happened ..So He could have put the trees outside the garden, He could have cast satan to the moon ... God could have prevented the fall if that was His will.

No His will was for man to fall.. He placed the trees where He did, and put Satan into that garden (remember satan can do nothing without Gods permission) ...

God ordained the fall for His glory .. .

He predestined it before the foundation of the earth and He ordained that Christ would reconcile His children to Himself..

Amen to most everything you said.
Let me draw on a couple of things you said.
-You said 'will for man to fall. Did you mean permitted?
-You also mentioned 'trees' do you care to comment on the nature of these trees?

 

[rnmomof7]

I believe that God is the first cause of everything .... yes even the fall ...

He created Adam and Eve in such a way that they would be prideful and desire to be gods..

They had the choice to refuse the temptation but because of the nature God gave them the fall was ordained.



The trees I was speaking of were the trees of good and evil..that they were not to eat from..

 

[2404]

I believe that God is the first cause of everything .... yes even the fall ...

He created Adam and Eve in such a way that they would be prideful and desire to be gods..

They had the choice to refuse the temptation but because of the nature God gave them the fall was ordained.



The trees I was speaking of were the trees of good and evil..that they were not to eat from..

OK - Thank you

With the trees I was wondering if we were on the same page.
I understand the tree of life to be the Word 'Jesus Christ' and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would be to accept the lie...

Intellectual pursuits may be considered a the tree of knowledge -or- fruit of the womb etc.
I expect you know where I am going but then let me ask you 'why did Jesus then have to come as a Spoken Word?'
Mary didn't have one thing to do with it she was simply the bedding ground.
Enough said.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hello BubbaLove.

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Your will is utterly useless, ultimately it is God that has mercy.

Love by the way is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, it is not a fruit of the human will.

I do not agree that Saint Paul is saying God creates some creatures evil (incapable of choosing good) simply to prove His Glory. In making creatures with free will, the potential for evil is required - potential not necessity. Saint Paul is saying God allows that potential for His Glory and knowing before all creatures are made, knowing ALL the choices they will make, Saint Paul is also acknowledging that God can use ALL those choices for His Glory. And while counter-intuitive to some - there is still predestination in this view as God knows what "will be" before making all His Creatures yet allows what "will" be (as in a result of their free will) none the less.

Yes God's Grace and Mercy are required. Absolutely. But so too is our cooperation with His Grace and Mercy. He said "come follow me" and many did - but not all continued. It was a request, not an edict and they had to respond to it - and continue in responding to it. For the same quoted Saint also indicates we must continue to run a good race not just because running it is a good idea but because it is a necessity (continue to "follow me") - which is unnecessary if we say we have already won.

Besides, without a free will, we cannot truly be held accountable/responsible for our actions. Which back to Satan, means he too had a choice and Saint John's vision depicts Satan being held responsible.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

God gives us the ability to love him ... without His grace we could never love the God of the scripture , we would never seek Him or want to be His.

Correct.
God gives all sentient beings the ability to love Him because the reason He made them requires it.
For man- from Baltimore Catechism - God made man to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him for ever in heaven.
That purpose for creating us requires that we ALL have that ability. It also means our nature should seek and want to be His. However our nature is also fallen, which means we are currently inclined to do the opposite (of our nature). Which then absolutely requires His Grace (and Mercy) to keep us seeking and wanting to be His.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

And back to Satan, God created the angels to adore and enjoy God in the spiritual realm (paraphrasing Baltimore Catechism again). And the fallen angels state is absolute (unlike ours which is currently conditional) - meaning they have no possibility of redemption.

 

[klutedavid]

I do not agree that Saint Paul is saying God creates some creatures evil (incapable of choosing good) simply to prove His Glory. In making creatures with free will, the potential for evil is required - potential not necessity. Saint Paul is saying God allows that potential for His Glory and knowing before all creatures are made, knowing ALL the choices they will make, Saint Paul is also acknowledging that God can use ALL those choices for His Glory. And while counter-intuitive to some - there is still predestination in this view as God knows what "will be" before making all His Creatures yet allows what "will" be (as in a result of their free will) none the less.

Yes God's Grace and Mercy are required. Absolutely. But so too is our cooperation with His Grace and Mercy. He said "come follow me" and many did - but not all continued. It was a request, not an edict and they had to respond to it - and continue in responding to it. For the same quoted Saint also indicates we must continue to run a good race not just because running it is a good idea but because it is a necessity (continue to "follow me") - which is unnecessary if we say we have already won.

Besides, without a free will, we cannot truly be held accountable/responsible for our actions. Which back to Satan, means he too had a choice and Saint John's vision depicts Satan being held responsible.

Hello BubbaLove.

I apologise for the delay in responding to your reply Bubbalove, I have been away on vacation.

You said in your last post.

I do not agree that Saint Paul is saying God creates some creatures evil (incapable of choosing good)
simply to prove His Glory.

I have never stated Bubbalove, that God creates some evil creatures, I am not sure why you have introduced this
idea into the conversation?

How is the question of mankind having the attribute of a 'free will', in any way, related to the creation of mankind?

You mentioned 'predestination', may I also ask what you mean by the term predestination?

Simply put BubbaLove, mankind cannot be under the control of the devil, but also possess a free will. You are presenting
a paradox. Either mankind is subject to the will of the devil or mankind is not subject to the devil's will. It can only be one
or the other, of these two options. If mankind is subject to the devil then there is no free will in play.