Against the traditional view of hell

[Mathetes the kerux]

Is your view scriptural?

Do you have scripture to back up your claim?

I do!

Gen 6:1 . .. clear proof we are in the image of fallen adam and not that of God anymore . . . u still have to cite ur proof

 

[Timothew]

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal torture.
We can not earn, nor do we deserve eternal life in God's Kingdom or in any other place.

Examples of what happens to the incorrigibly wicked can be read in many places in the Bible.

Ro.6:23 and Jo.3:16 say much the same thing.
Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perishBUT have everlasting life. Notice that DEATH or PERISHING is spoken of in contrast to eternal LIFE! Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else. Notice also that eternal life is God’s gift. It is not something that we are born with! If God does not give us eternal life we can not get it for ourselves.

Before we read Ezk.18:4,20 we need to go back to Genesis. A misunderstanding of the word “soul” is at the crux of much of this misunderstanding. The word translated soul in Gen.2:7 is “Nephesh” (neh’-fesh) the word means a living creature, not something in us, that has its own life apart from us. The first time the word is used in the Bible is Gen.1:21 and is speaking about whales and other animals. This word is continually used to refer to animals of every kind. A few examples can be found in Gen.1:21,24 2:19, 9:10 and on and on. When it is used in Gen.2:7, man becomes a (nephesh) a living creature or a living soul. Man is not given a “nephesh,” he is one.

So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls/beings end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH.

Few will choose this fate but some rebellious souls will. That is a whole other subject for another time.
I hope this helps.

I agree

 

[Timothew]

That thing of hell and eternal punishment is the most absurd, as well as the most disagreeable thought that ever entered into the head of mortal man.
George Berkeley

 

[Timothew]

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Malachi 4speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls/beings end up in this fire Mal.4 [ . . . ]

The unfailing sign of the false religious doctrine, 1-2 out-of-context proof texts, Lets look at the entire 4th chapter of Malachi.

Mal 4:1-6
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
(6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​

Note vs. 6 the earth still exists when the prophecy is fulfilled people's hearts are being turned to their fathers. If the hearts are not turned God will smite the earth with a curse. God could not smite the earth with a curse if all the unrighteous had already been destroyed.

Your out-of-context proof text vs. 3 does not refer to all the unrighteous in history being destroyed, forever, but God's enemies on the earth being killed on the day of judgment. The saints in God's kingdom will not be walking on the ashes of the unrighteous for all eternity.

(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

Matthew 25 says the unrighteous go away into "eternal, everlasting, unending punishment." Telling sinners they will go away into "eternal punishment" is meaningless to the dead. "eternal punishment? So what dood I'll be dead. Dead is dead."

 

[Timothew]

The unfailing sign of the false religious doctrine, 1-2 out-of-context proof texts, Lets look at the entire 4th chapter of Malachi.

Mal 4:1-6
​

(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
(6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
​

Note vs. 6 the earth still exists when the prophecy is fulfilled people's hearts are being turned to their fathers. If the hearts are not turned God will smite the earth with a curse. God could not smite the earth with a curse if all the unrighteous had already been destroyed.

Your out-of-context proof text vs. 3 does not refer to all the unrighteous in history being destroyed, forever, but God's enemies on the earth being killed on the day of judgment. The saints in God's kingdom will not be walking on the ashes of the unrighteous for all eternity.

(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
​

Matthew 25 says the unrighteous go away into "eternal, everlasting, unending punishment." Telling sinners they will go away into "eternal punishment" is meaningless to the dead. "eternal punishment? So what dood I'll be dead. Dead is dead."

We know that verses 5 and 6 refer to the coming of John the Baptist, so verse 1 has to come after this, eschatologically. I see verses 1-3 as referring to the coming judgement day, and verses 4-6 referring to Jesus' first coming. We know from John chapter 6 that the dead will be resurrected on judgement day, the righteous will be resurrected to eternal life and the unrighteous will be resurrected to eternal punishment (which you would interpret as torture and I would interpret as the second death).

Matthew 25:46 says the unrighteous went away into κόλασιν αἰώνιον (I noticed that you added a few adjectives). Matthew 25:26 does not say whether this kolasin punishment is eternal torture or eternal death.

We know from other scripture that the punishment for sin is death, Romans 6:23 and James 1:15 among many other verses.

 

[Der Alte]

The unfailing sign of the false religious doctrine, 1-2 out-of-context proof texts, Lets look at the entire 4th chapter of Malachi.

Mal 4:1-6
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
(6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​

Note vs. 6 the earth still exists when the prophecy is fulfilled people's hearts are being turned to their fathers. If the hearts are not turned God will smite the earth with a curse. God could not smite the earth with a curse if all the unrighteous had already been destroyed.

Your out-of-context proof text vs. 3 does not refer to all the unrighteous in history being destroyed, forever, but God's enemies on the earth being killed on the day of judgment. The saints in God's kingdom will not be walking on the ashes of the unrighteous for all eternity.

(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

Matthew 25 says the unrighteous go away into "eternal, everlasting, unending punishment." Telling sinners they will go away into "eternal punishment" is meaningless to the dead. "eternal punishment? So what dood I'll be dead. Dead is dead."

We know that verses 5 and 6 refer to the coming of John the Baptist, so verse 1 has to come after this, eschatologically. I see verses 1-3 as referring to the coming judgement day, and verses 4-6 referring to Jesus' first coming. We know from John chapter 6 that the dead will be resurrected on judgement day, the righteous will be resurrected to eternal life and the unrighteous will be resurrected to eternal punishment (which you would interpret as torture and I would interpret as the second death).

What you "see" contradicts what the passage says. I have highlighted the references to the day. Note vs. 5 "I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day." Vss. 1-4 must occur before the coming of Elijah, as bad as you may want it to be otherwise.

Matthew 25:46 says the unrighteous went away into κόλασιν αἰώνιον (I noticed that you added a few adjectives). Matthew 25:26 does not say whether this kolasin punishment is eternal torture or eternal death.

Please show me a verse which says κόλασιν is θάνατος or that θάνατος is κόλασιν? I believe the Bible writers said exactly what they meant. Had Matthew, or any other writer, intended to say θάνατος/death that is exactly what he would have written. In Matthew if the ζωην αιωνιον/Zohn aionion lasts for an eternity then the κολασιν αιωνιον/kolasin aionion must last for an eternity. κολασιν which is not experienced is not κολασιν! Telling sinners they will go away into "eternal punishment" is meaningless to someone who will be dead. "eternal punishment? So what dood I'll be dead. Dead is dead."

We know from other scripture that the punishment for sin is death, Romans 6:23 and James 1:15 among many other verses.

Those can be explained without ignoring the clear meaning of Matthew 25. But only if one is searching for the truth rather than trying to support the doctrines with which they have been indoctrinated.

 

[Timothew]

Matthew 17:11-13
Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

So we know that the verse has been fulfilled that says Elijah will come. And we also know that wicked and the proud have not already been burned up, after all I am still here and so are you , So it is definitely true that the events of verses 1-3 come after Elijah's coming in verse 5, as bad as you may want it to be otherwise.

I'm not saying that κόλασιν = θάνατος. I'm saying the kolasis is not specified in Matthew 25:46. The eternal punishment could be eternal torture, if you only look at this verse out of context. Or the punishment could be eternal death, if you look at the rest of the Bible. Do you draw definite conclusions from the parable of the sheep and goats, and completely ignore Paul when he says the wages of sin is death (θάνατο&#962, and James when he says when sin is accomplished it brings forth death (θάνατο&#957?

It is the search for truth that has brought me to this conclusion. If anyone is trying to "support doctrines with which they have been indoctrinated," it would be you. Haven't you been indoctrinated with the doctrine of eternal torture? I was also indoctinated with the false doctrine of eternal torture, but I'm willing to read the bible for truth, and not lock step in a doctrine from the dark ages.

 

[Timothew]

Why is it considered heretical by some on CF to say "the wages of sin is death,"
But it is not considered heretical to say "God tortures people?"

 

[Mikecpking]

Why is it considered heretical by some on CF to say "the wages of sin is death,"
But it is not considered heretical to say "God tortures people?"

Or you could point out it is like saying death = eternal life being tortured in hell.

 

[Timothew]

Or you could point out it is like saying death = eternal life being tortured in hell.

Except that the bible doesn't say that.

 

[Mikecpking]

Except that the bible doesn't say that.

Quite!

 

[Timothew]

Or you could point out it is like saying death = eternal life being tortured in hell.

I'm glad that you weren't saying "death = eternal life," such a saying would be idiotic!

I was afraid that I would have to patiently explain logical thinking all over again!

 

[Der Alte]

The unfailing sign of the false religious doctrine, 1-2 out-of-context proof texts, Lets look at the entire 4th chapter of Malachi.

Mal 4:1-6
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
(4) Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
(5) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
(6) And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​

Note vs. 6 the earth still exists when the prophecy is fulfilled people's hearts are being turned to their fathers. If the hearts are not turned God will smite the earth with a curse. God could not smite the earth with a curse if all the unrighteous had already been destroyed.

Your out-of-context proof text vs. 3 does not refer to all the unrighteous in history being destroyed, forever, but God's enemies on the earth being killed on the day of judgment. The saints in God's kingdom will not be walking on the ashes of the unrighteous for all eternity.

(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

Matthew 25 says the unrighteous go away into "eternal, everlasting, unending punishment." Telling sinners they will go away into "eternal punishment" is meaningless to the dead. "eternal punishment? So what dood I'll be dead. Dead is dead."

Matthew 17:11-13
Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

So we know that the verse has been fulfilled that says Elijah will come. And we also know that wicked and the proud have not already been burned up, after all I am still here and so are you , So it is definitely true that the events of verses 1-3 come after Elijah's coming in verse 5, as bad as you may want it to be otherwise.

I note you have completely disregarded Mal 4:1-4 and posted your proof text while thus ignoring the total context of the passage. My point was there are two references to "that day" in vss. 1-4, which must occur before vs. 5. Therefore vs. 3 "ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your " cannot refer to the final judgment since it must occur before the coming of Elijah. Also it cannot refer to the final judgment because the saints in the kingdom of God will not be walking on the ashes of the unrighteous, who had been destroyed, throughout eternity.

I'm not saying that κόλασιν = θάνατος. I'm saying the kolasis is not specified in Matthew 25:46. The eternal punishment could be eternal torture, if you only look at this verse out of context.
Or the punishment could be eternal death, if you look at the rest of the Bible.

Although you claim otherwise, since your argue that κολασιν αιωνιον can mean κολασιν θάνατος you are in fact arguing that κόλασιν = θάνατος. Please explain why the NT writers, or any other Greek writer, NEVER say or imply that κολασιν αιωνιον can mean κολασιν θάνατος, if that is what they meant?

Do you draw definite conclusions from the parable of the sheep and goats, and completely ignore Paul when he says the wages of sin is death (θάνατο&#962, and James when he says when sin is accomplished it brings forth death (θάνατο&#957?

False accusation! I do not ignore Paul writing on death (θάνατος). Let us go back to the very first mention of death in the Bible Gen 2:17.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

However, the man did not die the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit but lived for several more hundred years. Therefore when God speaks of death he does not always mean instantaneous cessation of mortal life. Thus "Paul when he says the wages of sin is death (θάνατος)," may very well mean spiritual death as in the case of Adam. Thus I do not have to ignore passages of scripture like you do Mal 4:1-4 because they contradict my beliefs.

It is the search for truth that has brought me to this conclusion. If anyone is trying to "support doctrines with which they have been indoctrinated," it would be you. Haven't you been indoctrinated with the doctrine of eternal torture? I was also indoctinated with the false doctrine of eternal torture, but I'm willing to read the bible for truth, and not lock step in a doctrine from the dark ages.

The correct Biblical term is "eternal punishment" as in Matt 25, NOT "torture." Persisting in using inflammatory terms does not make them correct. AFIK I have not been indoctrinated with the doctrine of eternal punishment. I cannot remember one lesson or one sermon concerning it in the first 40 + years of my life, including post graduate Theological school. I preached a sermon titled "Lessons from Hell University," based on Luke 16:19 ff. IIRC, around '95-'96. I made myself knowledgeable about the topic within the last 10 years being exposed to anti arguments right here on this forum.

My truth is a lot more truthful than your "truth," which, as I have shown, requires ignoring rather than reconciling passages of scripture as I have done, here.

 

[Charlie Milles]

I remember some old bishop saying that he thought that hell would be some utter pariahdom. That would be pretty awful.

 

[Der Alte]

Or you could point out it is like saying death = eternal life being tortured in hell.

Except that the bible doesn't say that.

While the Bible does not say "death = eternal life being tortured in hell" There are passages which indicate some kind of conscious awareness after death, which includes torment in flames, e.g. Isaiah 14:10-11, Ezekiel 32:18-31, and Luke 16:19-28. Wait! Don't tell me, I know the answer to this one. They are all figurative, although scripture never says this.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I remember some old bishop saying that he thought that hell would be some utter pariahdom. That would be pretty awful.

Interesting.

The Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation happens to mention something like that

Reve 22:15 Outside the dogs/kuneV <2965> and the sorcerers and the prostituters and the muderers and the idolaters and every one being fond of and doing falseness.
[Philipp 3:2]

Pariahdom | Define Pariahdom at Dictionary.com

&#8211;noun
1. an outcast.

2. any person or animal that is generally despised or avoided.

3. ( initial capital letter

) a member of a low caste in southern India and Burma.


Word Origin & History

pariah

1613, from Port. paria or directly from Tamil paraiyar, pl. of paraiyan "drummer" (at festivals, the hereditary duty of members of the largest of the lower castes of southern India), from parai "large festival drum." Especially numerous at Madras, where its members supplied most of the domestics in European service. Applied by Hindus and Europeans to members of any low Hindu caste and even to outcastes. Extended meaning "social outcast" is first attested 1819

 

[Mr Dave]

While the Bible does not say "death = eternal life being tortured in hell" There are passages which indicate some kind of conscious awareness after death, which includes torment in flames, e.g. Isaiah 14:10-11, Ezekiel 32:18-31, and Luke 16:19-28. Wait! Don't tell me, I know the answer to this one. They are all figurative, although scripture never says this.

They show some sort of conscious awareness, they don't say eternal.

 

[Der Alte]

While the Bible does not say "death = eternal life being tortured in hell" There are passages which indicate some kind of conscious awareness after death, which includes torment in flames, e.g. Isaiah 14:10-11, Ezekiel 32:18-31, and Luke 16:19-28. Wait! Don't tell me, I know the answer to this one. They are all figurative, although scripture never says this.

They show some sort of conscious awareness, they don't say eternal.

Matthew 25:41, 46, and Rev 14:11 20:10 shows that the conscious awareness following death is eternal punishment.

 

[Mr Dave]

Matthew 25:41, 46, and Rev 14:11 20:10 shows that the conscious awareness following death is eternal punishment.

Those verses have been done to the death (no pun intended) in all the recent threads on this.