Against the traditional view of hell

[dlbotelho]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I would like some insight about a subject that has been of particular importance to me. To me, sending people who did not get saved, for whatever reason, to be tortured forever after they die does not coincide with a loving God. I got saved in a denomination that believed if you did not get baptized a certain way or speak in tongues that you would go to hell, even if you loved God. I could not speak in tongues, so I was always afraid that this loving God would send me to hell if I died. It was torturous. I stopped going to church and even entertained the thought that it might all be untrue because of the injustice of the traditional doctrine of hell. Now I cannot deny the experiences I've had with God and his love, but I don't believe that someone will go to hell because they sin after they get saved, don't accept Christ because they had other doctrines pumped into them all of their lives, didn't get baptized a certain way, couldn't speak in tongues, or any other extenuating circumstance. I even consider that maybe this "outer darkness" could be the lack of existence after death. Although some passages in the Bible would suggest otherwise. I think that God is love and not a sadistic tyrant who although he is all powerful, chooses to allow the possibility for people to end up in an eternal torture chamber. You and I wouldn't do that because we have an inherent sense of mercy. Certainly God's sense of mercy is greater than ours. I appreciate any responses.

 

[desmalia]

I'm so sorry that you encountered that lie in a church. Tongues or specific "mode" of baptism are not salvific. And it's absolutely horrible that there are still some charismatic churches that believe you must speak essentially pagan gibberish as proof of salvation. You're a perfect example of how dangerous such a lie is. And you're not alone. That lie has needlessly devastated and depressed many people, even to a point of considering suicide.

Regarding hell, I really strongly urge you to find your answers about hell and God's wrath in the Scriptures. Yes, God is love. No question! He is also holy and just. We are sinners, all of us fall short of the glory of God. All of us sin against Him every day. All of us deserve hell. It is by His immeasurable mercy and grace that any of us should be saved. We certainly don't deserve it! And if you think you do, then you've got a very proud opinion of man, and a very low opinion of God. When you understand the gravity of your sin, you may then come to understand just how incredible and merciful God is to send His only Son, His perfect, blameless, innocent Son to die in your place and cover over all of your sins, past, present, and future.

 

[Deut 5:29]

The punishment of the incorrigibly wicked is eternal death (that is, to never live again) not eternal torture.
We can not earn, nor do we deserve eternal life in God's Kingdom or in any other place.

Examples of what happens to the incorrigibly wicked can be read in many places in the Bible.

Ro.6:23 and Jo.3:16 say much the same thing.
Ro.6:23 For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jo.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perishBUT have everlasting life. Notice that DEATH or PERISHING is spoken of in contrast to eternal LIFE! Death or perishing is not speaking about life some where else doing something else. Notice also that eternal life is God’s gift. It is not something that we are born with! If God does not give us eternal life we can not get it for ourselves.

Before we read Ezk.18:4,20 we need to go back to Genesis. A misunderstanding of the word “soul” is at the crux of much of this misunderstanding. The word translated soul in Gen.2:7 is “Nephesh” (neh’-fesh) the word means a living creature, not something in us, that has its own life apart from us. The first time the word is used in the Bible is Gen.1:21 and is speaking about whales and other animals. This word is continually used to refer to animals of every kind. A few examples can be found in Gen.1:21,24 2:19, 9:10 and on and on. When it is used in Gen.2:7, man becomes a (nephesh) a living creature or a living soul. Man is not given a “nephesh,” he is one.

So now that we understand what a soul is and what it is not we can begin to understand Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls/beings end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH.

Few will choose this fate but some rebellious souls will. That is a whole other subject for another time.
I hope this helps.

 

[ebia]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I would like some insight about a subject that has been of particular importance to me. To me, sending people who did not get saved, for whatever reason, to be tortured forever after they die does not coincide with a loving God. I got saved in a denomination that believed if you did not get baptized a certain way or speak in tongues that you would go to hell, even if you loved God. I could not speak in tongues, so I was always afraid that this loving God would send me to hell if I died. It was torturous. I stopped going to church and even entertained the thought that it might all be untrue because of the injustice of the traditional doctrine of hell. Now I cannot deny the experiences I've had with God and his love, but I don't believe that someone will go to hell because they sin after they get saved, don't accept Christ because they had other doctrines pumped into them all of their lives, didn't get baptized a certain way, couldn't speak in tongues, or any other extenuating circumstance. I even consider that maybe this "outer darkness" could be the lack of existence after death. Although some passages in the Bible would suggest otherwise. I think that God is love and not a sadistic tyrant who although he is all powerful, chooses to allow the possibility for people to end up in an eternal torture chamber. You and I wouldn't do that because we have an inherent sense of mercy. Certainly God's sense of mercy is greater than ours. I appreciate any responses.

The traditional view of hell owes more to medieval art than it does to scripture. Scripture is way more concerned with God's ultimate purpose for creation, and the here and now of living in and for that creation, than it is with hell (or heaven for that matter). And when it does talk about the alternative to being part of God's Kingdom it does so in metaphor.

 

[chingchang]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I would like some insight about a subject that has been of particular importance to me. To me, sending people who did not get saved, for whatever reason, to be tortured forever after they die does not coincide with a loving God. I got saved in a denomination that believed if you did not get baptized a certain way or speak in tongues that you would go to hell, even if you loved God. I could not speak in tongues, so I was always afraid that this loving God would send me to hell if I died. It was torturous. I stopped going to church and even entertained the thought that it might all be untrue because of the injustice of the traditional doctrine of hell. Now I cannot deny the experiences I've had with God and his love, but I don't believe that someone will go to hell because they sin after they get saved, don't accept Christ because they had other doctrines pumped into them all of their lives, didn't get baptized a certain way, couldn't speak in tongues, or any other extenuating circumstance. I even consider that maybe this "outer darkness" could be the lack of existence after death. Although some passages in the Bible would suggest otherwise. I think that God is love and not a sadistic tyrant who although he is all powerful, chooses to allow the possibility for people to end up in an eternal torture chamber. You and I wouldn't do that because we have an inherent sense of mercy. Certainly God's sense of mercy is greater than ours. I appreciate any responses.

The Bible plainly teaches eternal destruction...not torture. The OT reveals that this is God's character when dealing with the "wicked" (see the Flood, Sodom/Gomorah, enemies of Israel, etc.) The author of Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorah serve as an example of what will happen to those that suffer eternal fire. Well...what happened there? Complete destruction...nothing left. In the parable of the wheat and the chaff...what happens to the chaff (i.e. wicked)? Burned up...nothing left. He used this parable because farmers of the time could relate. You get rid of the stuff you don't want to keep...you don't torture it endlessly. Furthermore...when one studies the history of the doctrine of eternal hell fire and torture...you'll see quickly that it was a man-made invention to convert pagans to Catholicism (more money for Rome). The doctrine of eternal hell fire with conscious torture is an evil lie and depicts our loving Father as a torturous tyrant. In the book of Matthew Yeshua warns people to fear the one (Yahweh) who can destroy both BODY and SOUL in hell. Note the word "destroy" and note that it happens to both BODY and SOUL. Why tell us this if that is not what God intends to do?

CC

 

[dlbotelho]

Thanks for your insight. What about in Revelations where the son of perdition and the beast will be tormented day and night for ever and ever?

 

[ebia]

Revelation is apocalyptic literature - it is symbolic through and through. Taking bits out to form doctrine from is always very dodgy ground at best.

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible plainly teaches eternal destruction...not torture. The OT reveals that this is God's character when dealing with the "wicked" (see the Flood, Sodom/Gomorah, enemies of Israel, etc.) The author of Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorah serve as an example of what will happen to those that suffer eternal fire. Well...what happened there? Complete destruction...nothing left. In the parable of the wheat and the chaff...what happens to the chaff (i.e. wicked)? Burned up...nothing left. He used this parable because farmers of the time could relate. You get rid of the stuff you don't want to keep...you don't torture it endlessly. Furthermore...when one studies the history of the doctrine of eternal hell fire and torture...you'll see quickly that it was a man-made invention to convert pagans to Catholicism (more money for Rome). The doctrine of eternal hell fire with conscious torture is an evil lie and depicts our loving Father as a torturous tyrant. In the book of Matthew Yeshua warns people to fear the one (Yahweh) who can destroy both BODY and SOUL in hell. Note the word "destroy" and note that it happens to both BODY and SOUL. Why tell us this if that is not what God intends to do?

CC

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

[3] Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness[sup]1[/sup] shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[sup]1[/sup] Psalm 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:​

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say[sup]2[/sup] to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

At the end of the world, “All things that offend/the wicked shall be cast into a furnace of fire.” What is the duration of burning in the fire? See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[11] Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily [αμην/amen] I say unto you, Except ye be converted[sup]3[/sup], and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[13] Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

If the αιωνιον/aiónion punishment ends at some indeterminate time in the future, so too does the αιωνιον/aiónion life. The same word.

Does αιωνιον/aiónion punishment mean only indeterminate ages long, that will eventually end?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If the εις αιωνας αιωνων torment, of those who worship the beast and his image, and receive the mark of his name, ends at some, indeterminate, time in the future then the smoke is no longer theirs.

Does εις αιωνας αιωνων means some definite, finite, “eon of eons,” in the future, when the torment ends? No! 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, God’s unchanging word will still say, “those who worship the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who worship the image of the beast, they have no rest day or night.,” “those who receive the mark of the beast, they have no rest day or night.”

 

[Der Alte]

[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern to them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, the unquenched fire did not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does that change occur?

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Luke 13:23, below. Jesus said, “many shall not be able,” to enter the kingdom. Universalists claim that everyone will enter. Is Jesus a liar? Some time in the future will this verse change to say, “Everyone shall be able to enter?” When does that change occur?

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. For universalism to be true, either Jesus is a liar, or these words must change to, shall enter in.” When does this verse change?

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death?

When does this verse change to “Even if a man is not born of water, and of the Spirit, he can still enter into the kingdom of God?”

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

Note in the most well known and loved passage in the N.T. Jesus did not say everyone was saved already. But he said they are condemned already.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.​

 

[Der Alte]

The traditional view of hell owes more to medieval art than it does to scripture. Scripture is way more concerned with God's ultimate purpose for creation, and the here and now of living in and for that creation, than it is with hell (or heaven for that matter). And when it does talk about the alternative to being part of God's Kingdom it does so in metaphor.

If that is true please explain why from the time Moses handed down the law, the ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending punishment, in flames, for the unrighteous. Note the scripture is highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

 

[New_Wineskin]

Hi, I'm new to this site. I would like some insight about a subject that has been of particular importance to me. To me, sending people who did not get saved, for whatever reason, to be tortured forever after they die does not coincide with a loving God. I got saved in a denomination that believed if you did not get baptized a certain way or speak in tongues that you would go to hell, even if you loved God. I could not speak in tongues, so I was always afraid that this loving God would send me to hell if I died. It was torturous. I stopped going to church and even entertained the thought that it might all be untrue because of the injustice of the traditional doctrine of hell. Now I cannot deny the experiences I've had with God and his love, but I don't believe that someone will go to hell because they sin after they get saved, don't accept Christ because they had other doctrines pumped into them all of their lives, didn't get baptized a certain way, couldn't speak in tongues, or any other extenuating circumstance. I even consider that maybe this "outer darkness" could be the lack of existence after death. Although some passages in the Bible would suggest otherwise. I think that God is love and not a sadistic tyrant who although he is all powerful, chooses to allow the possibility for people to end up in an eternal torture chamber. You and I wouldn't do that because we have an inherent sense of mercy. Certainly God's sense of mercy is greater than ours. I appreciate any responses.

I understand what you mean and I agree . Hell is not about the Lord torturing people for eternity . Hell is simply a continuation of the state that people were in when they died having decided that they didn't want a relationship with the Lord . The appear before the Judgement and see the Lord in all of His glory and then , for all of eternity , is left only with themselves and maybe with all other people who didn't want that relationship . Think about it ... none without a real moral compass . Yes , there *may* be those that try to do good things to each other for some reason but , without the support of the Lord , that would end in frustration soon enough .

So , it is really the people torturing themselves or each other - not the Lord .

 

[ebia]

If that is true please explain why from the time Moses handed down the law, the ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending punishment, in flames, for the unrighteous.

​

I don't think they did.

 

[chingchang]

If that is true please explain why from the time Moses handed down the law, the ancient Jews believed in a place of eternal, unending punishment, in flames, for the unrighteous. Note the scripture is highlighted in blue.

Jewish Encyclopedia, GEHENNA
by : Kaufmann Kohler Ludwig Blau

The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.] according to Gen. R. ix. 9, the words "very good" in Gen. i. 31 refer to hell; hence the latter must have been created on the sixth day.

The "fiery furnace" that Abraham saw (Gen. xv. 17, Hebr.) was Gehenna (Mek. xx. 18b, 71b; comp. Enoch, xcviii. 3, ciii. 8; Matt. xiii. 42, 50; 'Er. 19a, where the "fiery furnace" is also identified with the gate of Gehenna). Opinions also vary as to the situation, extent, and nature of hell. The statement that Gehenna is situated in the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, in the "accursed valley" (Enoch, xxvii. 1 et seq.), means simply that it has a gate there. It was in Zion, and had a gate in Jerusalem (Isa. xxxi. 9). It had three gates, one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem ('Er. 19a). The gate lies between two palm-trees in the valley of Hinnom, from which smoke is continually rising (ib.).

Because of the extent of Gehenna the sun, on setting in the evening, passes by it, and receives from it its own fire (evening glow; B. B. 84a). A fiery stream ("dinur") falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna (hag. 13b).

There is a smell of sulfur in Gehenna (Enoch, lxvii. 6). This agrees with the Greek idea of hell (Lucian, Αληθεις Ιστοριαι, i. 29, in Dietrich, "Abraxas," p. 36). The sulfurous smell of the Tiberian medicinal springs was ascribed to their connection with Gehenna. In Isa. lxvi. 16, 24 it is said that God judges by means of fire.

Gehenna is dark in spite of the immense masses of fire; it is like night (Yeb. 109b; comp. Job x. 22). The same idea also occurs in Enoch, x. 4, lxxxii. 2; Matt. viii. 12, xxii. 13, xxv. 30 (comp. Schwally, l.c. p. 176).

It is assumed that there is an angel-prince in charge of Gehenna. He says to God: "Put everything into my sea; nourish me with the seed of Seth; I am hungry." But God refuses his request, telling him to take the heathen peoples (Shab. 104). God says to the angel-prince: "I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals" ('Ar. 15b).

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (hag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b).

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a). There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). " The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). (see image) Valley of Ge-Hinnom.(From a photograph by Bonfils.) The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - GEHENNA
​

They believed in Hell in ancient Egypt. Israel was known for mixing pagan beliefs into their religion...and guess what...they came out of Egypt. Shoot...modern Christianity is no different. Point is though that God will punish...not torture. The punishment is eternal NOT in a temporal sense...but in and absolute way. There will be an end to the pain for the wicked. If you believe otherwise...and are o.k. with it...then the God you worship is NOT the God I worship. These things will be revealed...

Furthermore...if you really believe in eternal torture and you truly love your neighbor then you should be begging every person you come in contact with to think/believe the way you do. Just sayin'...

CC

 

[Der Alte]

They believed in Hell in ancient Egypt. Israel was known for mixing pagan beliefs into their religion...and guess what...they came out of Egypt. Shoot...modern Christianity is no different. Point is though that God will punish...not torture. The punishment is eternal NOT in a temporal sense...but in and absolute way. There will be an end to the pain for the wicked. If you believe otherwise...and are o.k. with it...then the God you worship is NOT the God I worship. These things will be revealed...

I see you have NOT addressed anything I posted which included 39 passages of OT scripture. In reply, all I see are a bunch of accusations and assertions with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. You evidently have been intensely indoctrinated with all this stuff but that does not make it true.

Furthermore...if you really believe in eternal torture and you truly love your neighbor then you should be begging every person you come in contact with to think/believe the way you do. Just sayin'..

Meaningless copout implication. I preach and teach constantly.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't think they did.

What you "think" is irrelevant. You ignored the evidence I presented from a Jewish source, the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, which included 39 passages of scripture.

 

[chingchang]

I see you have NOT addressed anything I posted which included 39 passages of OT scripture. In reply, all I see are a bunch of accusations and assertions with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. You evidently have been intensely indoctrinated with all this stuff but that does not make it true.

I addressed you clearly with "evidence" on the other hell thread. Sorry I don't save my replies and repost them in related threads like you do. Again...why does Yeshua tell us this?:

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hmmm...destroy BOTH body and soul? Are you telling me that God CAN destroy the soul in hell but he's not going to? Destruction is a theme in the Bible and that is what happens to chaff. How can you NOT see that? What happened in Sodom and Gomorrah? TOTAL DESTRUCTION (nothing left). Why is that important? How about this:

Jude 7 (NIV)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Hello! You have to be spiritually BLIND to not be able to see that.

BTW...I was intensely indoctrinated into the traditional view of hell (as have you obviously) when I was a member of a Southern Baptist Church for 5+ years. I broke free from that mental prison after learning the truth (through self-study) on this issue and others. I arrived on my view of what happens in hell from a plain reading of the Bible. I also read the following book:

Amazon.com: Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) (9780830822553): Edward William Fudge…

...which presents the annihilationist and traditionalist views and lets the reader decide. In my opinion...the evidence is stacked on the annihilationist side...especially given the history of the evil traditional view of hell doctrine.

Meaningless copout implication. I preach and teach constantly.

Good for you...but you're teaching falsely with regard to hell. If you believe what you teach...I admonish you to BEG people to think like you so they can avoid being tortured endlessly by a merciless God.

CC

 

[Pythons]

Speaking in tongues is not a requirement for salvation and neither is a belief in traditional hell.....
...Hell is real and permanent yet the belief for or against does not put a person in it.
...It is rejecting Christ and His Commandments that puts an individual in heat.

I would not in any way shape or form say baptism is an un-needed ritual.....
....The Scriptures say it is needed.

Hell is as real as God is and Scripture is very clear that those who reject Christ go there.

 

[tall73]

I see you have NOT addressed anything I posted which included 39 passages of OT scripture. In reply, all I see are a bunch of accusations and assertions with NO, ZERO, NONE evidence. You evidently have been intensely indoctrinated with all this stuff but that does not make it true.

For years I was an annihilationist as an Adventist. And after some time I still lean that direction. However, I freely admit there are texts that could suggest eternal torment.

On the other hand there are texts that suggest the other. And there are far more images for final punishment than just fire.

I am open to changing my view. I don't particularly want the traditional view of hell to be correct, but if it is I don't want to hold a false view just because of my personal wants or wishes.

So since you are wanting to discuss the texts and the evidence I will post some material that I wrote up a few years ago now on the various texts of hell. We can discuss and see where it goes.

But I just want to mention that it is not just enough to post your strongest texts. You must also deal with the strongest texts of the other view. All of the material has to make sense together to have the right view.

 

[tall73]

First of all, I want to give a quick summary of my view. My contention is that


a. The soul is not immortal of its nature but derives its immortality from God.

b. The wicked are raised to life to face the judgment. (I do not hold to the idea held historically by the Jehovah’s Witnesses and some others that there is no resurrection at all for the wicked.)

c. At the final judgment the wicked are destroyed. The term “annihilation,” which implies chemical annihilation, is in this respect a misnomer, as most annihilationists do not view the fate of the wicked as chemical annihilation–the complete destruction of matter–but simply that they perish, die, cease to be conscious in any fashion. This does not preclude some matter remaining (ashes, etc.)

d. Before the wicked perish, there will be a time of conscious torment, recompensing them for their wicked deeds which they did not repent of. The Bible hints at degrees of punishment congruent with degrees of wickedness.

Texts dealing with the nature of final punishment


Old Testament


There are not many texts that directly address final punishment in the Old Testament. However, many of the temporal judgments that God brought upon people are later referenced in the NT. Therefore, these passages do affect interpretation, but will be viewed later in relation to the NT passages that quote them. There are also a number of judgments which describe the wicked as perishing, etc., but it is not always clear whether this is in reference to final punishment or temporal.

Note also that I am distinguishing between final punishment and the intermediate state.

There is one text that I think is likely speaking of final judgment that I want to raise here:

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Here Malachi makes reference to the common theme of the Day of the Lord, the day when He brings judgment. A picture of this day was seen in the judgment of God upon the nations through the Assyrians and Babylonians, of which Israel and Judah were a part. But this passage takes place after that and clearly looks beyond that time to the future day of judgment.

The usual theme of fire is used, with the wicked being stubble that are burned up. There is nothing left of them following this judgment, neither root nor branch, and no hope of restoration. The wicked are then described as ashes under the souls are the feet of the saints.


An objection raised by some is that this is referring to a time before Christ, and therefore a temporal judgment. The basis of this is the note about remembering the law of Moses. While it is true that this speaks particularly to God’s covenant-keeping people, as does the rest of the book, and while it makes references to being struck with a curse (a reference to the covenant curses and blessings), the time of the judgment clearly extends into the Christian era. This is evident by the reference to the sending of Elijah: “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.”

The gospels reference that this was directly fulfilled through the ministry of John the Baptist and his preparatory work in paving the way for Christ:

Luk 1:17 and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared."

Mat 17:10 And the disciples asked him, "Then why do the scribes say that first Elijah must come?" 11 He answered, "Elijah does come, and he will restore all things. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they pleased. So also the Son of Man will certainly suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that he was speaking to them of John the Baptist. 14 And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him,

Therefore, the judgment referenced is after John, and in the Christian era. This, coupled with the day of the Lord theme which references the end of time even in the NT, indicates that it is the final judgment in which God will bring the wicked to an end and reward the righteous.

New Testament


Since some texts might be covered while speaking of other ones, I make no effort to cover them again. Therefore, the majority of the texts in Matthew might be covered, but fewer in other books, because reference is already made to the text in the discussion. If a text has essentially the same content I might not cover it (for instance, Paul makes many statements about the wicked not inheriting the kingdom in which no new information is gained).

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Here in the words of John the Baptist, the Elijah to come, mentioned in Malachi, is the fate awaiting the righteous and the wicked.

(SeeEdward Fudge in his book The Fire that Consumes for more on the Elijah/Malachi connection).


The righteous–the wheat–are gathered into the barn, but the chaff are burned up. In this way the threshing floor is “cleansed.” The fire again is unquenchable, but not because it goes on forever, but rather because it completes its work. The symbol would be obvious to the people of that time, as the chaff was consumed. So here we see both a reference to the cutting down of a tree (killing) and consumption. John’s words parallel those used by Malachi, and Malachi in turn predicted John’s coming and his message of repentance.

 

[Der Alte]

I addressed you clearly with "evidence" on the other hell thread. Sorry I don't save my replies and repost them in related threads like you do. Again...why does Yeshua tell us this?:

Matthew 10:28 (NIV)
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hmmm...destroy BOTH body and soul? Are you telling me that God CAN destroy the soul in hell but he's not going to? Destruction is a theme in the Bible and that is what happens to chaff. How can you NOT see that? What happened in Sodom and Gomorrah? TOTAL DESTRUCTION (nothing left).

I posted twenty eight vss. spoken by Jesus. Explain to me how you posting one out-of-context vs. addresses what I posted?

Please show me a verse which depicts God actually destroying a soul?

What happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? Perhaps you should learn to read scripture in context?

2Pe 2:6-9
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed temporally, in time, but God will resurrect them and judge them

Why is that important? How about this:

Jude 7 (NIV)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Hello! You have to be spiritually BLIND to not be able to see that.

Also see 2 Peter 2:6-9, above, for the context of this.

Vincent Word Studies
Suffering the vengeance of eternal fire (πυρὸς αἰωνίου δίκην ὑπέχουσαι)
Rev., rightly, substitutes punishment for vengeance, since δίκη carries the underlying idea of right or justice, which is not necessarily implied in vengeance. Some of the best modern expositors render are set forth as an example of eternal fire, suffering punishment. This meaning seems, on the whole, more natural, though the Greek construction favors the others, since eternal fire is the standing term for the finally condemned in the last judgment, and could hardly be correctly said of Sodom and Gomorrah. Those cities are most truly an example of eternal fire. “A destruction so utter and so permanent as theirs has been, is the nearest approach that can be found in this world to the destruction which awaits those who are kept under darkness to the judgment of the great day” (Lumby). Suffering (ὑπέχουσαι). Only here in New Testament. The participle is present, indicating that they are suffering to this day the punishment which came upon them in Lot's time. The verb means, literally, to hold under; thence to uphold or support, and so to suffer or undergo.
​

BTW...I was intensely indoctrinated into the traditional view of hell (as have you obviously) when I was a member of a Southern Baptist Church for 5+ years. I broke free from that mental prison after learning the truth (through self-study) on this issue and others. I arrived on my view of what happens in hell from a plain reading of the Bible. I also read the following book:

Going to a church for a few years proves nothing. Ignoring the Jewish history and Jesus speaking on the topic does not prove your argument!

Good for you...but you're teaching falsely with regard to hell. If you believe what you teach...I admonish you to BEG people to think like you so they can avoid being tortured endlessly by a merciless God.

Preaching about hell will not encourage people to be saved.

OBTW I don't need to read a book by anyone I have posted historical Jewish evidence and twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus you have not addressed those. Here is more historical evidence.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras

"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])

Irenaeus

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).​