Accountability in the Church

[Carl Emerson]

The Pentecostal terminology is "a check in the Spirit".

The elder would have realised it was the Lord after the event, not before. He would have suddenly got a thought to do it and it was strong enough for him to obey it, and when he got to his brother's house and found him like that he knew that the thought really did come from the Lord.

You don't know that.

He was one of Murray Robinsons elders and had learned what was the Holy Spirit and what wasn't.

 

[ARBITER01]

I am not sure that I have made myself perfectly clear about how I go about my daily routine life. I don't ask for guidance about what I should be doing at any time. Because I have the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is there to guide my steps according to His will at any time. But I don't have to be aware of it unless He alerts me that I should do something or go somewhere. This does not come as a voice, but as a red light in my "waters". There are times when I will be an amber light as a caution that the direction may not be right and that I should check it out. But usually, I use my own brain and make decisions that seem appropriate to me.

Once I asked the Lord about guidance and immediately the verse came back to me, "Don't be like a horse or a mule that has to be led around with a bit and bridle." What this told me was that I did not have to get the Lord's permission for things concerning my routine life. I asked Him how I can know that what I am doing is His will. Another verse came to me, "A man may plan his way, but the Lord guides his steps." Ah! I thought. This means that I can make my own decisions and the Holy Spirit will guide my steps without me having to worry about it, but just to trust Him that He will guide me aright.

I asked him how I am going to know whether I am going astray. He gave me a mental picture of a road with electric fences on each side, and so if I strayed of the straight and narrow I would get a zap that put me on track. This has happened on a number of occasions.

Then the Lord gave me another verse: “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.” (Proverbs 3:5-6). This means that I can trust in God, rest in Christ, make wise decisions, and the Lord will sort out the rest without me having to continually checking up on Him to make sure that I am doing everything right.

I have found that when the Holy Spirit has spoken to me, it has been a verse of Scripture that totally matches what He wants me to know. I don't need to have the Holy Spirit as a "spirit guide" in the same way that New Age people have. If I get some "word" from supposedly from the Spirit, I use the Scripture, "Do not believe every spirit but test the spirits whether they are from God or not". The way I do that is to search the Scriptures to see if what is being told to me is consistent with God has already said in the Bible. If I can't find anything, I totally reject what that spirit has said to me.

I remember back around 2012 I was asked to be the keynote speaker in the annual pastor's conference for East Waikato to be held in Matamata. When the time came closer, we had a family emergency that meant that I wouldn't be available that weekend. At the time I was disappointed, but found out later by my friend who took over the role, that they spent so much time having a worship session at the start of the conference, that there wasn't enough time to do justice to the opportunity. My friend said that the conference was a disappointment to him. I realised that my family emergency meant that I had dodged a bullet and saved me from travelling from Auckland to Matamata and spending money for overnight accommodation for nothing of value. That is a good example of the Holy Spirit intervening. Furthermore, the subject I was going to speak on turned out to be not supported in Scripture, and so I was prevented from making a serious error of doctrine for those people.

Is this really how you require GOD to speak to you? You force Him to use scripture because you can't trust His voice otherwise?

 

[Laodicean60]

adversarial man took it as an opportunity to setup their own kingdoms and joined these mini kingdoms to the adversarial world of man by whoring itself to the Roman Empire.

Unfortunately for the last 20 years, we allowed the setup. It all started with the media and look at what the world has become. When the first lies came out we didn't force our churches or Christian organizations to fight the deception from the media and our politicians. We retreated to our trusted media to let the adversary shape our and kids' minds. I haven't heard of any Christian organization suing the government. Peace

 

[timothyu]

Some folks think all they need is their bibles and they are good, they refuse The Holy Spirit.

They will find out later that was a mistake.

Most people have indeed lost sight of the Gospel of the Kingdom and have no idea the HS represents a culture contrary to the ways of mankind. So without enlightenment, man reads the Bible and builds Christianity through the self serving eyes of mankind rather than the HS, building a human government rather than a godly one. They even claim the HS tell them to pursue worldly things which of course is impossible. If that were not so then there would be no need for God to return and take away authourity from man over man.

 

[timothyu]

I haven't heard of any Christian organization suing the government. Peace

That's the problem with being an ally, a tool of human government. Christianity eventually created kings and nations and in some cases the kings became CEO's of Christianity. Worldly governments all. People should understand that if Jesus taught the gospel of the Kingdom today, it would be seen as a terrorist organization, for His Kingdom is an alien threat from outside of this world..

 

[Laodicean60]

Is this really how you require GOD to speak to you? You force Him to use scripture because you can't trust His voice otherwise?

I get the same feeling. God has cleared up my some misinterpretations of scripture after a lot of prayer but I had to open myself up asking Him if I was wrong. I try not to get into scripture wars because it's all about interpretation, ego, and things we can't know for sure.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Unfortunately for the last 20 years, we allowed the setup. It all started with the media and look at what the world has become. When the first lies came out we didn't force our churches or Christian organizations to fight the deception from the media and our politicians. We retreated to our trusted media to let the adversary shape our and kids' minds. I haven't heard of any Christian organization suing the government. Peace

Must say I agree that the voice of thee Church is somewhat muted...

 

[Carl Emerson]

That's the problem with being an ally, a tool of human government. Christianity eventually created kings and nations and in some cases the kings became CEO's of Christianity. Worldly governments all. People should understand that if Jesus taught the gospel of the Kingdom today, it would be seen as a terrorist organization, for His Kingdom is an alien threat from outside of this world..

Like in China...

 

[timothyu]

Like in China...

You know... If China understood Jesus rather than what they assume about Christianity, they might like Him. He was after all , all about sharing. I can see why they are confused.

 

[chevyontheriver]

How can accountability in the church be encouraged to help keep both the shepherds and the sheep on the straight and narrow path of salvation? How did the modern day church even evolve to the point where Pastors are seen as untouchable authoritarian figures who are allowed to do whatever they want to the sheep? The bible says that if a man cannot manage his own household then he should not lead the household of God. The bible also details that the man leading the church should also have a good, self-controlled character that is not violent, lacks love of money, etc.

1 Timothy 3
1This is a trustworthy saying: “If someone aspires to be a church leader,a he desires an honorable position.” 2So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife.b He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. 3He must not be a heavy drinkerc or be violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money. 4He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him. 5For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?

There are many examples where the households of Pastors are in shambles, and it eventually brings down the whole ministry of the Pastor. Scandals such as violent tempers, sexual immorality among the members of the household, incredible greed, disrespectful, wayward, lost, at times addicted, and even suicidal children bent on self destruction who are casualties of their parents ministry, etc. How can these things be addressed? What is the best way to keep the shepherds accountable to the sheep and vice versa so that all can continue to exhort each other to Godliness and holiness according to Hebrews 10:25 (25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.)? Many discouraging things are happening in churches to the point where some people are being completely turned off to church forever and do not want to have fellowship in church anymore due to the levels of scandals taking place.

You quote an apostle writing to his delegate who was delegated to set up overseers of presbyters. Exploring the ecclesiology of the two books to Timothy and the book to Titus in historical context should help. No pastor should be independent of oversight. No overseer should be independent of oversight. The self-appointed pastor accountable to no one isn’t Paul’s view at all. Bishops are to be carefully chosen and are to carefully rule. If they mess up they are to be removed too. And even apostles are not immune from criticism, as Paul told Peter he was acting poorly. No human being currently on earth should get a free pass. Pastors had oversight in historic Christianity. They need oversight today.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is this really how you require GOD to speak to you? You force Him to use scripture because you can't trust His voice otherwise?

You know very well that we can't force God to do anything we want. I don't subscribe to Jesse Duplantis and his nonsense about God doing only what we permit Him to do. God is sovereign and He does things the way He wants, not the way we want. If God uses Scripture to speak to me, then He doesn't need anyone's permission to speak that way. Why should He not use the words that the Holy Spirit wrote? Is the Holy Spirit not God, of the same essence as Jesus and the Father?

The Apostle John's instruction was very clear: "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Just because an impression sounds and feels kosher, it doesn't mean that it really from God. We can't accept a spirit's voice as God just because we believe it is. We need a healthy skepticism and give it a thorough test to make sure it is from God or not, and the only reliable basis for testing are the Scriptures. That's how the Bereans tested Paul's preaching and found his preaching true.

 

[ARBITER01]

I get the same feeling. God has cleared up my some misinterpretations of scripture after a lot of prayer but I had to open myself up asking Him if I was wrong. I try not to get into scripture wars because it's all about interpretation, ego, and things we can't know for sure.

There's been times where The Holy Spirit showed me where I was wrong on an issue, and once I realized it, I immediately told Him He was right and I was wrong, and changed my view on that subject.

I want Him to have the preeminence in my life.

 

[ARBITER01]

You know very well that we can't force God to do anything we want. I don't subscribe to Jesse Duplantis and his nonsense about God doing only what we permit Him to do. God is sovereign and He does things the way He wants, not the way we want. If God uses Scripture to speak to me, then He doesn't need anyone's permission to speak that way. Why should He not use the words that the Holy Spirit wrote? Is the Holy Spirit not God, of the same essence as Jesus and the Father?

The Apostle John's instruction was very clear: "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Just because an impression sounds and feels kosher, it doesn't mean that it really from God. We can't accept a spirit's voice as God just because we believe it is. We need a healthy skepticism and give it a thorough test to make sure it is from God or not, and the only reliable basis for testing are the Scriptures. That's how the Bereans tested Paul's preaching and found his preaching true.

You sound scared.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You sound scared.

Actually I am sitting in my easy chair, having a cup of tea, and enjoying posting on CF!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You don't know that.

He was one of Murray Robinsons elders and had learned what was the Holy Spirit and what wasn't.

We can't go wrong there. I witnessed Murray Robertson preaching at Spreydon Baptist in 1986 where the Lord spoke to me so clearly during his message that I felt that he was preaching just to me. It was one of the very few times when someone's message was so powerfully prophetic and it changed my attitude to the particular issue that I have having with my previous Palmerston North church.

 

[ARBITER01]

You know very well that we can't force God to do anything we want. I don't subscribe to Jesse Duplantis and his nonsense about God doing only what we permit Him to do. God is sovereign and He does things the way He wants, not the way we want. If God uses Scripture to speak to me, then He doesn't need anyone's permission to speak that way. Why should He not use the words that the Holy Spirit wrote? Is the Holy Spirit not God, of the same essence as Jesus and the Father?

2 Corinthians 13:14

King James Version

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.​

That word communion also means fellowship.

 

[Veni]

Listen to everything a pastor tells you. Do exactly as he tells you to do, but do not do as he do.

Do not make decisions on your own, let your pastor decide for you.

You are blameless, if everything you do is guided by a pastor.
Therefore seek blessings from your pastor first.

It is better for one man to enter judgment, then the entire nation.

 

[timothyu]

It is better for one man to enter judgment, then the entire nation.

Were those of Germany almost a century ago innocent for doing as their leader wanted? Pastor, politician, it is all the same. And without the people they would have no say.

 

[Veni]

Without the people, all this will end.
But people are ignorance, they keep adding without mercy.

 

[Yarddog]

How can accountability in the church be encouraged to help keep both the shepherds and the sheep on the straight and narrow path of salvation? How did the modern day church even evolve to the point where Pastors are seen as untouchable authoritarian figures who are allowed to do whatever they want to the sheep? The bible says that if a man cannot manage his own household then he should not lead the household of God. The bible also details that the man leading the church should also have a good, self-controlled character that is not violent, lacks love of money, etc.

1 Timothy 3
1This is a trustworthy saying: “If someone aspires to be a church leader,a he desires an honorable position.” 2So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife.b He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. 3He must not be a heavy drinkerc or be violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money. 4He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him. 5For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?

There are many examples where the households of Pastors are in shambles, and it eventually brings down the whole ministry of the Pastor. Scandals such as violent tempers, sexual immorality among the members of the household, incredible greed, disrespectful, wayward, lost, at times addicted, and even suicidal children bent on self destruction who are casualties of their parents ministry, etc. How can these things be addressed? What is the best way to keep the shepherds accountable to the sheep and vice versa so that all can continue to exhort each other to Godliness and holiness according to Hebrews 10:25 (25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.)? Many discouraging things are happening in churches to the point where some people are being completely turned off to church forever and do not want to have fellowship in church anymore due to the levels of scandals taking place.

God gives us everything that we need but far too many Christians fail to embrace that special gift that we receive through baptism. God's Holy Spirit.

By letting go of ourselves and embracing the Spirit we re changed by the Spirit and grow in love. As we learn to love we lose the desire to do wrong. The Spirit teaches us how to love as God calls us and act by we are called.