Is it a good idea to state that God loves all?

Neostarwcc

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A lot of Christians will say, "God in the Old Testament was harsh, but he showed mercy in the New Testament" . There are many verses in the Old Testament where God openly displayed his wrath and made his wrath clear. And, when Jesus came he was that very same God but yet in the New Testmant he showed mercy and compassion to his sheep. But, here's the thing Jesus was just as critical as the God of the Old Testament when it came to the pharisees and the religious leaders of his day and quite frankly to the ungodly. In fact, whenever God had wrath and was angry its ALWAYS both Old and New Testament been towards the ungodly.

It's common for Pastors and Evangelists to say "God loves you" to the wicked and to the ungodly. But should this be the case? Because, scripture makes it clear that God despises the ungodly and this attitude continued in Christ. In fact, you can get any clearer than Psalm 11:5 where some English translations translates hate to abhors the wicked which is a much,much stronger word than just God hates the wicked.

So when a Pastor or an evangelist says to the wicked "God loves you" its actually factually incorrect if they are not among Gods sheep. But, also only God knows who his sheep are or evangelism would be extremely easy.

But what I'm mostly trying to start a debate on though is if God abhors the wicked, what else are we supposed to tell an unbeliever who potentially could be a sheep of God? So this problem spreads to call Christianity and not just the reformed community.
 

Ivan Hlavanda

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God loves all, including Judas who betrayed Him. God has a intimate relationship with His Son and those who are in Him.

The God of OT ans NT is the same. God demonstrated His mercy plenty of time in OT such as not wiping us out when we sinned but promised Messiah straightaway. Kept Moses and his family, Abrahamic covenant of grace etc.

God demonstrated His love to all on the cross. He calls all to His Son. He judges no one by their sins today, but that day is coming. Today is the year of Lord's favour. But then comes the day of vengence.

Jesus was crushed for our sins, and either we accept that or we will get crushed for our sins.

We should tell people God loves them, absolutely, but we need to tell them of His wrath also.
 
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HarleyER

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A lot of Christians will say, "God in the Old Testament was harsh, but he showed mercy in the New Testament" . There are many verses in the Old Testament where God openly displayed his wrath and made his wrath clear. And, when Jesus came he was that very same God but yet in the New Testmant he showed mercy and compassion to his sheep. But, here's the thing Jesus was just as critical as the God of the Old Testament when it came to the pharisees and the religious leaders of his day and quite frankly to the ungodly. In fact, whenever God had wrath and was angry its ALWAYS both Old and New Testament been towards the ungodly.

It's common for Pastors and Evangelists to say "God loves you" to the wicked and to the ungodly. But should this be the case? Because, scripture makes it clear that God despises the ungodly and this attitude continued in Christ. In fact, you can get any clearer than Psalm 11:5 where some English translations translates hate to abhors the wicked which is a much,much stronger word than just God hates the wicked.

So when a Pastor or an evangelist says to the wicked "God loves you" its actually factually incorrect if they are not among Gods sheep. But, also only God knows who his sheep are or evangelism would be extremely easy.

But what I'm mostly trying to start a debate on though is if God abhors the wicked, what else are we supposed to tell an unbeliever who potentially could be a sheep of God? So this problem spreads to call Christianity and not just the reformed community.
God does love all. What we should be saying is that man is evil and does not love the things of God. But that's not a popular message.
 
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The prodigal son was loved by his father. The question is whether the ungodly will return home to God. This doesn't mean that God condones ungodly behavior.
Good day, Miles

That is because he was a son....

God loves His children he adopts them and makes them His own. What about those who are not His children?

What about these types of people:

The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers

God has every right to hate them does he not and does so justly.

In Him,

Bill
 
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FameBright

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I really wish people would post more stuff like this.

It makes me want to dive deeper in to this:
If they break my statutes and do not keep my commandments, then I will punish their transgression...Nevertheless my lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him. (Psalm 89:31-33)

My take is that He does hate us when we love violence, but we have the opportunity to be redeemed and become something He loves.
 
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marshallpowers

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Whether or not it's a good idea to state that "God loves all" depends on the context and the audience you're addressing. If you're in a religious or spiritual setting where the concept of God's love is universally accepted and appreciated, affirming this belief can foster a sense of unity and positivity among those present. It can serve as a reminder of the unconditional love and compassion that many associate with their faith.
 
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Miles

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Good day, Miles

That is because he was a son....

God loves His children he adopts them and makes them His own. What about those who are not His children?

What about these types of people:

The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers

God has every right to hate them does he not and does so justly.

In Him,

Bill
Under original sin, we are those people. However, we are to identify with the prodigal son as we have been forgiven. Our sins, no matter how small or large they may seem to others, were enough to separate us from God. Although God hates evil, and he does so justly, he also loves us enough to forgive us. Evildoers are given the option to repent and be reconciled with their creator. That's why Jesus sacrificed his own life. He showed tremendous love by taking the weight of our sins on his shoulders. The sins of evildoers died with him on the cross that day as he, the sinless son of God, defeated death on our behalf.

When an evangelist says "God loves you" to the wicked, the message of forgiveness is meant for all who will listen and repent of their sins. The fact that they are given a choice shows how much he loves them despite their wickedness. It doesn't mean that God condones evil, but like the father of the prodigal son he welcomes us home if we return to him and repent of our evil ways. We would not have the choice to be reconciled to him if he didn't first love us.
 
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Neostarwcc

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I've yet to see a single verse of scripture in this thread. It's a shame because I was hoping to have a fair debate back and forth using scripture but so far all we have are personal opinions. But I can comment on them I guess but ill let everybody manually lookup the scriptures im referring to. Some say that God even loved Judas. Really??? The son of perdition that was doomed from the very beginning of time and never would have had a chance to repent? If that's the case than why did Jesus say it would have been better for him to have never been born? Double question on this one, Why when Jesus was praying for the salvation of his sheep did he say "I'm not praying for the world I'm praying for those you have given me outside of the world") he also mentions Judasas ultime fate in that very same prayer as well.

If God truly gave everyone an equal chance to be saved and loved everybody equally? Why was Jacob chosen and not Esau? Abel and not Cain? Why did he harden Pharaoh's heart? Why did he seal the door on the arc to make sure only Noah and his family were able to enter?

I'm sorry, but it is just flat out wrong to tell Atheists or potential sheep of God that God loves them unconditionally because it isn't true, the Bible is EXTREMELY clear that God hates sin AND sinners. Now I'm not saying we shouldn't evangelize far from it we should declare the gospel boldly and without fear but telling unbelievers all of the time that God loves them and died for them is exactly like telling telling little children about santa clause.

Sorry this got into a debate on limited atonement and I just specifically wanted to open a debate on this topic.
 
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Miles

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I've yet to see a single verse of scripture in this thread. It's a shame because I was hoping to have a fair debate back and forth using scripture but so far all we have are personal opinions. But I can comment on them I guess but ill let everybody manually lookup the scriptures im referring to. Some say that God even loved Judas. Really??? The son of perdition that was doomed from the very beginning of time and never would have had a chance to repent? If that's the case than why did Jesus say it would have been better for him to have never been born? Double question on this one, Why when Jesus was praying for the salvation of his sheep did he say "I'm not praying for the world I'm praying for those you have given me outside of the world") he also mentions Judasas ultime fate in that very same prayer as well.

If God truly gave everyone an equal chance to be saved and loved everybody equally? Why was Jacob chosen and not Esau? Abel and not Cain? Why did he harden Pharaoh's heart? Why did he seal the door on the arc to make sure only Noah and his family were able to enter?

I'm sorry, but it is just flat out wrong to tell Atheists or potential sheep of God that God loves them unconditionally because it isn't true, the Bible is EXTREMELY clear that God hates sin AND sinners. Now I'm not saying we shouldn't evangelize far from it we should declare the gospel boldly and without fear but telling unbelievers all of the time that God loves them and died for them is exactly like telling telling little children about santa clause.

Sorry this got into a debate on limited atonement and I just specifically wanted to open a debate on this topic.
Are you wishing to debate John 3:16?

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.



God can love his creations, including humanity, and hate sin at the same time. For instance, Psalm 104 contains the following passages:

31 May the glory of the Lord endure forever;
may the Lord rejoice in his works

35 But may sinners vanish from the earth

and the wicked be no more.

We are his creation. We are among the works in which he may rejoice, yet we are also sinful. He loves us as our creator, but he is holy. As he is holy he hates sin.



Would you say that God loved Paul or that God hated Paul? When he was known as Saul and a persecutor of Christians, God hated Paul in his sinfulness. But God also loved him profoundly.

The Damascus Road: Saul Converted

9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”


6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”


7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

Ananias Baptizes Saul

10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”

15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.


Saul Preaches Christ

20 Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

21 Then all who heard were amazed, and said, “Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?”

22 But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ.

-Acts 9
 
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Strong in Him

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A lot of Christians will say, "God in the Old Testament was harsh, but he showed mercy in the New Testament" . There are many verses in the Old Testament where God openly displayed his wrath and made his wrath clear. And, when Jesus came he was that very same God but yet in the New Testmant he showed mercy and compassion to his sheep. But, here's the thing Jesus was just as critical as the God of the Old Testament when it came to the pharisees and the religious leaders of his day and quite frankly to the ungodly. In fact, whenever God had wrath and was angry its ALWAYS both Old and New Testament been towards the ungodly.

It's common for Pastors and Evangelists to say "God loves you" to the wicked and to the ungodly. But should this be the case? Because, scripture makes it clear that God despises the ungodly and this attitude continued in Christ. In fact, you can get any clearer than Psalm 11:5 where some English translations translates hate to abhors the wicked which is a much,much stronger word than just God hates the wicked.
Romans 5:8 Christ died for sinners.
That's what he thought of sinners and the ungodly - he gave his life for them.
 
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BBAS 64

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Under original sin, we are those people. However, we are to identify with the prodigal son as we have been forgiven. Our sins, no matter how small or large they may seem to others, were enough to separate us from God. Although God hates evil, and he does so justly, he also loves us enough to forgive us. Evildoers are given the option to repent and be reconciled with their creator. That's why Jesus sacrificed his own life. He showed tremendous love by taking the weight of our sins on his shoulders. The sins of evildoers died with him on the cross that day as he, the sinless son of God, defeated death on our behalf.

When an evangelist says "God loves you" to the wicked, the message of forgiveness is meant for all who will listen and repent of their sins. The fact that they are given a choice shows how much he loves them despite their wickedness. It doesn't mean that God condones evil, but like the father of the prodigal son he welcomes us home if we return to him and repent of our evil ways. We would not have the choice to be reconciled to him if he didn't first love us.
Good day, Miles

Because of original sin we are not sons but children of wrath not sons at all.


Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Jesus died to save sinner no doubt.

The evangelist should stick to the gospel and call everyone to repentance.

So here is the question


"God loves His children he adopts them and makes them His own. What about those who are not His children?"

Does he love them if so how?

Paul in addressing the Church of Rome writes:

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Children of wrath are enemies Paul reminds the Church they "were" enemies. Are the ones out side the Church still enemies?

Jesus in John 8 makes it real clear that there are some that are not God's children:

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Miles

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Good day, Miles

Because of original sin we are not sons but children of wrath not sons at all.


Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Jesus died to save sinner no doubt.

The evangelist should stick to the gospel and call everyone to repentance.

So here is the question


"God loves His children he adopts them and makes them His own. What about those who are not His children?"

Does he love them if so how?

Paul in addressing the Church of Rome writes:

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Children of wrath are enemies Paul reminds the Church they "were" enemies. Are the ones out side the Church still enemies?

Jesus in John 8 makes it real clear that there are some that are not God's children:

Joh 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

In Him,

Bill

According to Jesus:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

- Matthew 5:43-46


If we are told to love our enemies, what does that say about about God's perspective towards them? We are to love them "that you may be children of your Father in heaven". We, the children, are to love our enemies because he, the Father, loves them.

This is not to imply that God approves of his enemies. Far from it. We are not talking about approval here. It is possible to love someone without condoning their behavior. God loves his creation, but he is holy. God's wrath against sin and the wicked pertains to sin's incompatibility with his holiness. The corrupted state of fallen creation does not square with his perfection. Although he doesn't approve of them, he nevertheless loves them.
 
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com7fy8

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if God abhors the wicked, what else are we supposed to tell an unbeliever who potentially could be a sheep of God?
He hates how the person is, and He means the person is not pleasing to Him like Jesus His Son is so pleasing.

So . . . we need to explain what it means that God "hates" the wicked. He certainly does not mean how humans can hate and have no hope for a wrong person.

"'As I live,' says the LORD God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.'" (in Ezekiel 33:11)

So, from this I see how God does hate the wicked . . . because of how the wicked are, but He loves them by having hope for them . . . for any wicked person to turn from that person's evil ways and live. So, He hates the person, yes, by wanting that person out of existence and to be replaced by a kind and caring person. He wants that old man to die, and for the person to become a new creature in Jesus < for this, love "hopes all things," we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

Jesus on the cross so suffered and died with hope for any and all evil people to be saved.

"For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son," (in Romans 5:10)

So, yes He was loving enemies, while He was on the cross. But was He pleased with evil people? No.

And Jesus tells us, "love your enemies," in Matthew 5:44. And "bless those who curse you," He also says here in this verse. So, Jesus gives us things to actively do in order to love enemies. And God Himself has been active in loving evil people >

"'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.'" (John 3:16)

So-o-o . . . the way He hates them could be how He wants what is good for them. Because they are hating God by not wanting what is good for themselves. "We are hating you, by not wanting all the good You would share with us." "Well, I am hating you, by wanting the best for you, that you don't want!!!"

And Jesus says we need to deny ourselves, in order to follow Jesus.

"If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23)

So, in some way, Jesus is telling us to hate ourselves by denying ourselves . . . and with this coming how we get rid of our present personality and we become gentle and lowly like Jesus . . . hating that old and former selfish person who we used to be.

"'He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.'" (John 12:25)

So, there is loving which can cost you your life, and hating which can result in you keeping your life for eternity in sharing with God.

And "God is love," we have in 1 John 4:8&16. So, when "love" does some hating . . . it can be a good thing.
 
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A lot of Christians will say, "God in the Old Testament was harsh, but he showed mercy in the New Testament" . There are many verses in the Old Testament where God openly displayed his wrath and made his wrath clear. And, when Jesus came he was that very same God but yet in the New Testmant he showed mercy and compassion to his sheep. But, here's the thing Jesus was just as critical as the God of the Old Testament when it came to the pharisees and the religious leaders of his day and quite frankly to the ungodly. In fact, whenever God had wrath and was angry its ALWAYS both Old and New Testament been towards the ungodly.

It's common for Pastors and Evangelists to say "God loves you" to the wicked and to the ungodly. But should this be the case? Because, scripture makes it clear that God despises the ungodly and this attitude continued in Christ. In fact, you can get any clearer than Psalm 11:5 where some English translations translates hate to abhors the wicked which is a much,much stronger word than just God hates the wicked.

So when a Pastor or an evangelist says to the wicked "God loves you" its actually factually incorrect if they are not among Gods sheep. But, also only God knows who his sheep are or evangelism would be extremely easy.

But what I'm mostly trying to start a debate on though is if God abhors the wicked, what else are we supposed to tell an unbeliever who potentially could be a sheep of God? So this problem spreads to call Christianity and not just the reformed community.
Yes, God loves all.


God IS love. This does not mean that "God is loving" to most or that God is mostly loving. God literally IS love. God's fundamental nature, his essence is love.

This is also why the Trinity is the central mystery of Christianity. This is why non-Trinitarian heresies are so fundamentally destructive.

God is not, by nature, a solitary being. If he were, love would not be part of God's nature. God is, by his very eternal nature, a relationship of love, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God's eternal nature is family and relationship.

Now, the difficulty that people run into is that they don't understand love, and what we call love, especially in this day and age is not love.


The first thing to understand is that love is NOT a feeling. The feeling that we call love is better called "affection". Affection leads us to love, but it in itself is not love and can become twisted so that it leads us away from real love as well.

The essential core of what real divine love is, is an act of will. Specifically Love is to will the good of the other, and especially to self-givingly, self-sacrificially will the good of the other.

The second thing to understand is that human affection and our experience of love are almost always experienced in combination with need. Almost all of the time, unless you specifically work to counteract it, our experience of loving someone makes us need them for our own emotional well-being. This also puts us in competition with them in a certain sense, because if I need a person, then my interests which depend on them, can come into conflict with their interests. Also, I it fosters attachment and dependence, which means I can't let them go, even if that's what is best for them.

Need is utterly and completely foreign to God. He has no need whatsoever. Jesus has experienced it as part of his human nature, but the Divine nature, by definition cannot have need.

Thus God's love has no slightest hint of need. He gains nothing if we love him, and loses nothing if we hate him. As such, he is never in competition with us because he needs nothing from us. He is perfectly free to act and will only for our best interests thus to love us perfectly.

The third thing to understand is that the emotions that we experience are almost all the result of the fact that we have a physical body with hormones and chemicals etc. God (except Jesus) does not have a physical body and as a result the "emotions" that are attributed to him in scripture such as wrath and love, are nothing like the way we experience those emotions. For us they are passions. The word passion means "suffering" and those emotions are called passions because we suffer them and they cause us suffering. They drive us through the experience of suffering.

God is not that way. He has no emotion in the sense that we experience emotions. Thus his wrath and anger are nothing like ours. The terms are only used in analogy. Just like God does not hate as we hate. When the Bible talks about God's wrath, or God hating, it cannot be understood in the context of how humans experience anger or hate etc.

Further, we know that God is not broken up into parts. He is all love. What this means is that his wrath and his love are the same thing. They are experienced differently by the people on the receiving end because of the choices those people made and what they became.

Imagine it like this... One person spends a great deal of time in very hot environments and as a result they become accustomed to heat. Those very hot environments become comfortable to them. Another person spends all their time in very cold environments, and as a result become accustomed to the cold. If you put that person into the hot environment they would find it unbearable, whereas the first person would hate the cold and prefer that same hot environment.
It is not the heat that is different, but how it is experienced by the people.

God loves everyone. Those who love God experience his love as paradise. Those who hate God experience is love as torment.

If you really delve into this logically and explore the philosophy of it you will find that even Hell is an expression of God's love and it exists because it is the best possible outcome for the people who go there.

Ultimately God holds that the highest good for all people is that they exist and to exist requires that they be free moral agents. As such God will allow people to freely choose self-destruction, but if they do choose self-destruction, they will make themselves miserable, and they will come to hate not only God, but themselves, and their own existence, to the point where existence itself is a torment to them. Thus even God's gift of existence, and self, which are expressions of his love, will become torment to them and seem like wrath and punishment.
 
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Big_Sinner

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God loves everyone absolutely. Especially the rejected, unfaithful, people of other faiths, the poor, the afflicted, and those condemned by society. He loves such people the most because he knows that they suffer a lot, also due to not knowing God. If a person doesn't know the true God, they find it difficult to find meaning in this life. God wants everyone to know him. This is the only true God that exists. A God who loves all people who have ever been born on this planet. God desires salvation for each one. His love for us is infinite.
 
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