You have made a claim.
Now back it up with the facts by presenting the words of the men you have listed, which prove you are correct.
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A verse that single-handedly destroys the dispensational delusion!
- Thread starter random person
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You have made a claim.
Now back it up with the facts by presenting the words of the men you have listed, which prove you are correct.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. Look it up for yourself because most of the early church fathers believed in a premillennial framework.
2. The word of God itself of the jewish feasts proves you are wrong and the fact that you can't prove it from the book of Revelation is why you want to resort to putting down the early church fathers and Dr. John Gill and others because all you want to do is say your facts show they were wrong but they cannot prove that they didn't not teach that framework or that they taught your position of post trib rapture.
3. You don't even want to address the scriptures about the jewish feasts.
You think it is more important to bash or prove Darby and others before him more than try to deal with the scriptures.
4. You are more interested in trying to destroy actual history of the early church fathers.
5. You are more interested in bashing and destroy writers who point out truth of history that don't suit your position.
6. You are trying to make escaping the tribulation as a way of meaning being lax in faith and not occupying until Christ comes and from not being a witness to the world.
7. You want to make issue divisive when it should not be.
8. You want to prove that the rapture happens at the second coming which is the Day of the Lord and the Battle of Armageddon which the book of Revelation shows that the last group to be resurrected were martyrs and not living believers and it was before the 7 vials which follows the 7 trumpets and is only the judgement on the beast kingdom worshippers.
9. If the rapture had to happen of the living believers and dead in Christ at the second coming the jewish remnant of the Revelation 12 would go up. They would cease to be the earthly remnant then.
10. The earthly jewish remnant are seen in Revelation 11 watching the 2 witnesses who had died going up to heaven. So for those who believe they are the church are wrong because there are no living believers in that group. That excludes the 144,000 for they are protected through the trumpet judgements and are seen in heaven in that time factor.
11. The souls under the altar are all dead believers that go to heaven in the first half of the tribulation under the 5th seal.
12. For those that believe in the last day mentioned in John by Martha was talking about Lazarus being raised up on the last day. This wasn't about being living resurrected believers.
13. Hebrews 6:1-2 talks about the old testament doctrines of leaving behind and going onto perfection of what the new covenant doctrines are. One of those was the resurrection of the dead. It didn't say anything or imply anything about the rapture of living believers and dead saints. Paul had already given the mystery of the rapture before that.
14. Now if you cannot prove the post trib rapture from the scripture and its proper context then no wonder you want to prove history of scholars who say something different than your writers. It is called deflecting and think more of proving man's doctrines than agreeing with the scriptures.
15. Even if you were right doesn't change my goal in life according to the word of God and being a witness for him. We are not promised a rose garden and christians were never in any age.
16. Do many in the professing church and that may be true believers need some persecution of greater measure? Sure. If going through the specific tribulation is because the church has to go through martyrs like them then those who have already died in the
17. Lord who didn't go through tribulation are a product of God being a respect of persons.
18. Most of the reason that many christians in the U.S. have not suffered as much of persecution like those of other countries is much to do with a country that was more geared to God as a basis though not a full theocracy as Israel. Many of the other countries where martyrs for their faith in an immense way is because many of those countries were and are pagan to the extreme and call for those persecutions.
19. You have no scriptural proof for your position without raising straw men and your flawed context and yet you keep trying to say you are right and still acting like the pre-trib rapture view from your flawed view is not only wrong but not scriptural and detrimental.
Even in the videos of Left Behind is the urgency for people to give their lives to God before it is too late because it could be any day. This view is just as much urgency in witnessing to people and not escape to be lax as you say your position is.
20. The problem with many of those christians were professing christians that went to the extreme of being lax about their faith and was not the doctrine purporting that type of mentality. If one is a true christian or at least one that believes the word and has a true passion of Christ they will occupy until he comes and will be willing to be persecuted even as a martyr. Paul believed this and taught this when he said "I Die Daily". Christians are to be ready at all times to stand up for Christ whether one receives more persecution than another. Once again you are wrong according to history and more importantly to the scriptures. Jerry kelso
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The blind debating with the blind. Two people that have not yet uttered a shred of truth in 14 boring, repetitive pages. One guy uses colored big letters, like he thinks what he's saying is important. The other guy just has to use a ridiculous numbering system, like he thinks he's laying out the steps of the truth, 1,2,3.... Yet neither has any idea of the real truth. Everything they've said does nothing other than occupy space. Sad. Christendom is a "nation" of sheep, most all operating under false interpretations of the Bible.
If you want the Biblical truth for today that applies directly to you, you're looking in the the wrong place. The only place you'll find it is in Paul's last 7 books. The only exception I can think of is Paul's Gospel, as told in 1 Cor 15:1-4. Everything during Acts was for the past. All in Acts is gone and not for us today - Israel, all the gifts, the rapture, the New Jerusalem - everything!
There was only one purpose during Acts, to get Israel, as a nation, to accept Christ as the promised Messiah. Everything was given for that purpose ONLY - the gifts, the bringing of Gentiles into Israel's kingdom. The ONLY purpose of bringing in the Gentiles during Acts was to provoke Israel to jealousy so they might accept Christ as the Messiah.
Had Israel accepted Christ, the rest of prophecy would have been fulfilled, starting immediately. This didn't happen, which resulted in this 2000 year parenthetical period never mentioned in prophecy and a time where no prophecy has EVER been fulfilled, no matter how much ignorant Christians attempt to make the 1948 establishing of modern Israel to be a fulfillment. However, since Israel doesn't occupy the total land promised to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and David, the prophecy has been definitely not been fulfilled
If you take part of what was preached during Acts, you have to take it all, including the gifts. No cafeteria style pick and choose. If Acts is truth for today, everybody would have at least one gift - but they don't. The gifts are seen right up until the end of Acts - Acts 28:3-9. The gifts aren't found after Acts. In fact, the gifts totally ceased. After Acts, Paul couldn't heal Trophimus, 2 Timothy 4:20, or Timothy, 1 Timothy 5:23. If the gifts stopped, then so did everything else written during Acts. Have you ever given a thought to why they ceased at Acts 28:28?
If you want the Biblical truth for today that applies directly to you, you're looking in the the wrong place. The only place you'll find it is in Paul's last 7 books. The only exception I can think of is Paul's Gospel, as told in 1 Cor 15:1-4. Everything during Acts was for the past. All in Acts is gone and not for us today - Israel, all the gifts, the rapture, the New Jerusalem - everything!
There was only one purpose during Acts, to get Israel, as a nation, to accept Christ as the promised Messiah. Everything was given for that purpose ONLY - the gifts, the bringing of Gentiles into Israel's kingdom. The ONLY purpose of bringing in the Gentiles during Acts was to provoke Israel to jealousy so they might accept Christ as the Messiah.
Had Israel accepted Christ, the rest of prophecy would have been fulfilled, starting immediately. This didn't happen, which resulted in this 2000 year parenthetical period never mentioned in prophecy and a time where no prophecy has EVER been fulfilled, no matter how much ignorant Christians attempt to make the 1948 establishing of modern Israel to be a fulfillment. However, since Israel doesn't occupy the total land promised to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and David, the prophecy has been definitely not been fulfilled
If you take part of what was preached during Acts, you have to take it all, including the gifts. No cafeteria style pick and choose. If Acts is truth for today, everybody would have at least one gift - but they don't. The gifts are seen right up until the end of Acts - Acts 28:3-9. The gifts aren't found after Acts. In fact, the gifts totally ceased. After Acts, Paul couldn't heal Trophimus, 2 Timothy 4:20, or Timothy, 1 Timothy 5:23. If the gifts stopped, then so did everything else written during Acts. Have you ever given a thought to why they ceased at Acts 28:28?
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
ac28,
1. If the only truth for us today is Paul's letters you might as well throw out the rest of the bible. So you are wrong on this point.
2. We may differ but that doesn't mean we are the blind leading the blind. We have given scriptures that are true and we have agreed on some things even though we disagree with the hermeneutical views that bring a different context and meaning to a passage.
3. False interpretations? You shouldn't be so quick to judge because your take on the rapture, Israel, the gifts etc is not scriptural at all. Paul states in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 about the rapture whether one believes in pre, mid, or post.
If the gifts are gone then so is the body of Christ for the gifts are for the body of Christ which is the church. Read 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 and they are to be done in love in chapter 13. Israel still has to fulfill and will fulfill their covenants with Christ when they repent for they are eternal covenants conditioned on obedience by the generation that will repent in the tribulation. Roman 9-11 Paul talks about it that Israel's gifts and callings are without repentance.
4. You are wrong about the purpose for Israel in the book of Acts. It was not about giving them a second chance to inherit the KOH for Jesus said it wasn't for them to know, only the Father knew.
Jesus also prophesied in Matthew 24 about the temple and the city being destroyed and that was before Acts started and was because of their rejection in Jesus ministry Matthew 23:37-39.
5. Had Israel accepted is a hypothetical and there is no place that said they would believe, only that they would reject the Messiah.
The gentiles were grafted in because of Israel's rejection and gentiles were to provoke them to jealousy.
It was because of Israel that gentiles could be saved in the old testament and this is why they were to be kind to the stranger at the gate because they had the covenants.
Paul said in Romans that the Gentiles were to provoke them to jealously.
6. Who said anything about a 2000 year parenthetical? The church has its place and it has been over 2000 years since the Day of Pentecost.
7. I know there are scriptures that jews use to prove 1948 was prophesied but I can't remember them right now.
Your basis for that not being true is because they don't have all the land God promised them through the Abrahamic Covenant right now. It is true they don't have it and it is true they are still backslidden as a nation but that doesn't mean 1948 was not prophetic.
In the tribulation the nation will birth the man child and the remnant will flee but the rest of the nation will be preserved in the wilderness for the last half of the tribulation and that will be because of the nation being birthed in 1948. So you are wrong in your assessment about Israel.
8. Gifts didn't cease otherwise Paul wouldn't have mentioned their purpose for the church in Corinthians. You are deducing that from not being mentioned as people in the act of doing it. He said to desire spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 14.
Gifts are still used today and are effective when used properly. The Holy Spirit is still with us and so are his gifts and the church is still here and the reason churches are so weak and not in unity is because they are not properly using the gifts. Many don't move in the supernatural and that is why they can't defeat the devil half the time.
9. Paul left him at Miletum sick, not that he could not heal him and it says nothing specific about healing being gone.
Smith Wigglesworth the great apostle of faith raised people from the dead by Christ power and people would be healed in his shadow etc. but then he had some people in his own family that didn't get healed and he couldn't understand why but it didn't mean that healing was gone.
10. Acts 28:28? Are you serious? Paul wrote to the gentiles about the gifts in his epistles not the nation of Israel.
Listen your doctrine is not new and it is still wrong as when it started.
Your reasoning and deducing is incorrect hermeneutically, historically and just downright illogical to say the least. And to say that we have said not truth and act like you have the ultimate truth when it is plain to see your using more of you wrong doctrine and wrong stinking thinking and have no basis in the truth of the word in the overall context. Jerry kelso
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It was that Godless organization known as the United Nations which set up the modern State of Israel in 1948.
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
The Temple Institute in Jerusalem intends to build what is found in the verses below.
Rev_2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev_3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
There are some who are working to help those now living in Israel by getting them grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. I have not disagreed with how they were set up and who set them up to be a nation.
I said there were those that have particular verses to prove it was biblical and of God. I will have to look them up and see what they say first.
2. Your reasoning to set them up as a nation doesn't necessarily hold water and it doesn't really stand to make any sense anyway because in the tribulation they will still be backslidden and they will be trying to implement the sacrifices again and still not understand the new covenant.
3. The antichrist will desolate the temple and capture the outer court and will be fighting for all of Jerusalem and Israel even though he will not fully accomplish that.
Isaiah 66:7-9 talks about the man child being brought forth which in the tribulation cannot be Christ for he has already ascended into heaven, so it will be the 144,000 jews.
Isaiah then talks about Israel travailing which is tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble like Daniel 12 talks about and Matthew 24.
4. Israel will be made a nation in one day at the end of the tribulation with Christ coming back with all the saints to defend Israel, Jerusalem, and the remnant.
If the jewish nation was set up and were righteous standing with the Messiah to begin with or even in 1948 they wouldn't be going back to the sacrifices for atonement in the tribulation.
5. When Israel becomes God's nation they will be at the head of the nations and rule the earth. So your whole reasoning that it could not be God's will for Israel to become a nation in 1948 doesn't really hold any water according to scripture.
God is pulling the strings and he works in mysterious ways and in ways that are his and that are not ours and for his purpose.
6. You are trying to use your own reasoning and deduction to come up with the answer and it is most of the time off.
7. Matthew 23:43 is talking about the spiritual kingdom and not the physical kingdom. The church will not be at the head of the nations and that is a fact of scripture unless you believe in replacement theology which your spiritual jew theory is still a form of replacement theology if you believe it is talking about the physical kingdom.
8. Grafting Israel back into the has been happening since Paul's day. It was part of the reason why Peter had his ministry to the jewish new covenant believers with the KOH slant for they still knew that they had covenants of Abraham and David for them that would play out in the restoration of all things. Peter preached it on the Day of Pentecost because he knew the prophecies but Jesus said they or even himself didn't know the day when it would happen. So both Peter and Paul understood the physical covenants of the physical jews connected to the physical KOH and knew it would happen sooner or later.
9. The gentile believers job is to make Israel jealous for God but it will still take Jacob's trouble for all that to make sense and come to completion before the whole nation accepts the Messiah.
Behold he cometh and every eye shall seem him EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIS SIDE. THOSE WHO PIERCED HIS SIDE WAS THE NATION OF ISRAEL. ACCEPT THE TRUTH!!!!!!!
So I'm sorry but you are wrong again and you are just grasping at straws. Jerry kelso
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Jerry,
My last post contained only facts that can be proven with mathematical certainty and scripture, but yet you claim it is wrong.
The modern State of Israel is a creation of the Untied Nations and the Temple Institute is preparing to rebuild a Jewish Temple. These two things are no more God's doing than was the murder of 6 million Jews by the Nazi's during WWII. Evil does not come from God. It comes from sinful men who are following the plan of Satan.
If you truly love the Jewish people, then help an organization that is sharing the Gospel with them, now.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
faroukfarouk,
Jesus told the children of Israel to repent and they didn't and they were destroyed in 70 A.D. because they lost their savor and they were trodden down under the foot of men. This has never and never will happen to the church for the gates of hell shall never prevail against the true church.
The position of random person is not scriptural and that is a dumb dumb delusion. Jerry kelso
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faroukfarouk
Fading curmudgeon
I don't identify Israel as a theological entity with the church, if this is what you're saying.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
faroukfarouk,
I said if you agree with random person's view which seemed to be inferred because of the dispensational delusion comment.
What a title to this thread seemed to might have agreed with his statement but if not that is fine. Jerry Kelso
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
Israel was in captivity for 70 years in Babylon.
Persia took over Babylon and Cyrus the Persian allowed the jews to go to the homeland not because they repented in 536 B.C.
The problem was that part of the jews went home and the rest of them stayed in babylon and according to Leviticus 26:18; 21; 24; and 28 showed so punishment was 7 times more.
70 yrs. 430 yrs remaining left 360 yrs remaining but multiplied by 7 was 2520 yrs in jewish lunar years.
2520 x 360 lunar calendar-907,200 days divided by 365 days = 2485.497 years from 536 B.C. may 15, 1948 Isaiah 66:8.
The covenants of Abraham and David were eternal covenants and because of Israel's sins and being cursed they were and are perpetual until they obey completely as a nation which will not be until after the tribulation.
Being perpetual is why Isaiah 66:7-8 can have historical contexts like the man child being Christ and the 144,000 being the actual fulfillment in the future.
I have to go but your reasoning of having to repent in order to be a nation is not the same context in the tribulation. Even in the tribulation they will already be a nation that is backslidden and they will be preserved in the wilderness for the last half of the tribulation but they will have a remnant who will believe and do the commandments of God etc.
So once again your reasoning does not prevent the 1948 establishment of the nation just because they supposedly didn't repent as a nation and become at the head of the nations.
There are other scriptures given that are given to prove that they would become a nation again even though they it would not be the same as the end time scenario. I have to go Jerry Kelso
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The nation of Israel was never able to keep the 10 commandments of God, perfectly. No one will ever gain their salvation by keeping commandments.
Christ had to come to take away sin.
There are two commandments of God that were in place before and after the Mosaic covenant.
Love God. Love Neighbor.
Actually, there was no nation established in 1948. It is called the State of Israel, instead of the Nation of Israel.
Christ will be the head of the nations.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. Actually, the children of Israel did keep the law perfectly in Joshua's day and people like Zacharias and Elizabeth and Paul did the law perfectly at times.
The weakness of the law was that it could not save them and no one could keep it perfectly all the time and that is true because the law of sin and death took advantage of the law that was holy and good and made them live in sin. Romans 7.
Christ had to come to take away sin and there is no argument there.
There were laws before God and men did them according to their conscience basically until Noah etc. There was no written law in the early days. This does not mean that there was no commandment or truth know not to love God which would be absurd.
2. State of Israel is semantics and doesn't really matter. Israel was a nation in the Babylonian day and the Persian days and some went back home but it was only part of the nation and it was because their judgement was over with in Babylon and because Cyrus took over and decided to let them go back not because they repented and became a full kingdom or because they became the head of the nations of the world.
The fact is that Israel is a nation today and regathering has happened in many ways at different times.
This has given them a chance to populate and many know the true covenant they are to possess and in the tribulation their will be jewish christians of the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses that will have the nation know the truth of the new covenant.
In Revelation 12 the remnant who came from the nation of Israel will do the commandments of God and will have the testimony of Jesus. The testimony of Jesus is the new covenant.
Christ will be the head of the nations of this world and David will be King of Israel and the apostles will rule over the 12 tribes of the nation of Israel and the Earthly Jerusalem will be the capitol of the world and Christ will rule with his people the Jewish nation over the whole earth.
Now all you want to do is try to get around the truth and the word of God won't let you so quit trying to muddy the waters with your spin. This is a no spin zone. Jerry Kelso
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You are saying that some were able to do what only Christ could do.
There is absolutely no way humans made of flesh can keep the law of Moses.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. Luke 1:6; And they were both righteous before God, WALKING IN ALL THE COMMANDMENTS AND ORDINANCES OF THE LORD BLAMELESS.
2. Philippians 3:6; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church: TOUCHING THE RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH IS IN THE LAW, BLAMELESS.
3. God gave the law which was not impossible to ever keep for Zacharias and Elizabeth for they walked in ALL the commandments and ordinances of the Lord Blameless.
Does this mean they lived the law perfectly all their life? Not necessarily but they did for some period of time so it was achievable.
4. Paul performed the righteousness of the law blameless and he believed in doing everything to mortify the members of his body so he wouldn't sin and Peter said that the flesh has ceased from sin so we wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh.
So it was achievable to be perfect and not sin for at least some period of time.
Christ was perfect according to the law his whole life and showed that it could be possible for he suffered just like men but without sin. Without sin is an implication that no one kept the law perfectly through their whole life.
Even Jesus told the jews to be perfect like their heavenly father.
The righteousness of the law at that time by Moses was he that does the law shall live in them. So to say no jew ever lived the law perfectly at all is scripturally untrue.
5. Read your bible and quit being so fleshly minded. Jerry Kelso
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Now let me get this straight. He was persecuting the Church and yet you think Paul was blameless before God.
This is how taking one verse out of context always gets us into trouble.
He may have been following the Mosaic law, but was not right with God because he was persecuting the Body of Christ.
This is what Paul is saying in the passage.
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Read your Bible, in context.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. Paul was doing the commandments is the point of being blameless. As far as the persecuting was done in ignorance because he understood it to be pleasing to God to put down those who were the enemy of the law keepers. He did not understand the new covenant at this time.
2. This doesn't mean it wasn't a sin because he said later that God granted him mercy on him because he did it in ignorance.
3. So I took nothing out of context and I noticed you didn't want to even touch Zacharias and Elizabeth because it is plain as day.
4. These two were in the context of being able to keep the Mosaic law and not the new covenant of the righteousness of faith in God.
5. You were trying to prove that the Mosaic law could not ever be kept perfectly and the scripture proves you wrong.
6. You should understand the point of the Mosaic law and its weakness was because the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made them sin. We have the law in the person of Christ the endless life and that helps us to overcome sin and is a part of the better promises of the new covenant.
7. You are trying your best to win a battle you can't win according to the scripture.
8. It is suspect at least that you didn't say anything about Zacharias and Elizabeth and only mentioned Paul of which you didn't understand in the first place.
9. You tell me to read the whole context down to the part of Paul talking about the righteousness by faith which is suspect that you wanted to deflect the original argument that you were trying to prove which was no one according to you could live the Mosaic law perfectly.
11. That is disingenuous and deflective and misleading.
12. First of all, you need to learn what your argument is in what you say. Then you need to stick with that point and prove it wrong.
13. You also need to quit leaving other important statements out that are even plainer.
14. Also, you need to quit adding other scriptures that appear deflective that are not a part of the original argument to begin with.
15. The bible says to rightly divide the word not type the scriptures and it will prove the point in every situation. You have proved this because you don't understand context in the first place.
16. What you did about Paul was take the fact of his zeal of persecuting the church disqualifying performing the law blamelessly according to the righteousness of the law.
I can assure you if Paul had known it was wrong he would not have done it in the first place.
17. So you used your own reasoning of persecuting the church and performing the law being opposite and believed it to be impossible. To be honest he had zeal in persecuting the church, touching the righteousness of the law which is in the law blameless. This is saying under the Mosaic law he wasn't doing anything wrong. It was under the new covenant that it was wrong. This means that he was blameless in the law of Moses.
18. At times the children of Israel were blessed and they had to keep all the commandments in order to be blessed because if they broke one they broke all.
So to your point of no one being able to live the Mosaic law perfectly is not scriptural. Once again you are wrong. Jerry Kelso
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Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
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jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
Being justified or not justified by the law of Moses had nothing to do with being able to perform part of the commandments or all of the commandment etc. If that was true why do the commandments at all if it was based on the basis of justification. Your reasoning is wrong again. Jerry Kelso
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