A verse that single-handedly destroys the dispensational delusion!

[jerry kelso]

I will agree that someone is confused, because the Lord is God.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

You might notice Jerry that the elements melt with fervent heat in both verse 10 and verse 12, which shows they are the same event.

.

baberean2,

1. You are still confused.
The Day of the Lord is the second coming when Christ will come out of Heaven with all the saints from the old testaments saints to the new testament saints and the tribulation saints of those who didn't take the mark of the beast as the last of the believers raptured to Heaven and no living believers are raptured with them.

2. There is the first renovation which lifts the curse of which all creation is groaning to be free of Romans 8:22-25. This will be at the Day of the Lord; the Second Coming; the Battle of Armageddon that will save Israel and the whole earth and at the beginning of the KOH reign of Christ with physical Israel of spiritual jews saved by the blood of Christ and the saints on earth who contain the old testament saints before the law and during the church period and includes the tribulation saints from the souls under the altar to the 144,000, the two witnesses and the blessed dead who didn't take the mark of the beast.

3. After the 1000 years that Satan has been bound in the pit so he cannot tempt the people on earth he will be loosed and he will deceive the nations of those people at that time who have not received Christ but have lived accordingly to the civil law.
God will destroy those at the last rebellion with fire from heaven.

4. After the GWTJ the New Heaven and the New Earth will be created.
So the 2nd renovation by fire is what Peter is talking about which happens at the end of the 1000 years because Christ has to reign first before he can do this renovation and before Christ can deliver up the KOH to the Father so God can be all in all. This is when the KOH earthly sphere will be in complete harmony with the KOG universal. This is why God will be all in all.
For your scenario to work and be the same thing Christ physical reign would have to be today for he must reign first before death can be done away with including sin and rebellion. This is why the Catholics misuse the spiritual reign of Christ now within the Davidic Covenant as the physical reign working through the church. This destroys the validity of the actual reality of the physical aspect of Isaiah 9:6-7. This is allegorical teaching to the extreme. This is also why they try to make the 1000 years as not being a literal 1000 years. Even if that were true it still would not hinder or do away with the progression of how the tribulation and the KOH unfold to the KOG all in all.
This is why they are accused of Replacement theology and being anti-semitic. They replace the physical nation with the church of today and because the Pope is the vicar of the earth and their church is the only church to get to God and be saved even Protestants who are their children is why many believe they are internally in the upper crest of the leadership they are anti-semitic.
Yes, God foreordained the church but he also foreordained the jewish nation and the covenants concerning Abraham are true for both and some are the same and some are not the same.
Salvation through the fulness of grace is for both jew and gentile in one body alike. It is also for the physical jews to be saved through grace and inherit the KOH to rule and reign. Jesus taught this when he said, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This is still in effect for Israel and was the meaning only for Israel concerning the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.
Members of the church in this age are to be meek because of who they are and not what they do and they will inherit the earth because he who suffers shall reign 2 Timothy 2:12. This doesn't mean that the church will be at the head of the nations or that the land promised to Israel in the Kingdom age will go to a mixture of jew and gentile of the church. Judaism was the culture of the jews not gentiles or gentile believers and it will be the way of living except under the new covenant and not the law of Moses.

So going back to the last renovation will be at the end of the Day of the Lord and will be the beginning of the Day of God of the New Heaven and the New Earth. This is what you refuse to believe. Once again you are wrong and do not understand proper context. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. You are still confused.
The Day of the Lord is the second coming when Christ will come out of Heaven with all the saints from the old testaments saints to the new testament saints and the tribulation saints of those who didn't take the mark of the beast as the last of the believers raptured to Heaven and no living believers are raptured with them.

2. There is the first renovation which lifts the curse of which all creation is groaning to be free of Romans 8:22-25. This will be at the Day of the Lord; the Second Coming; the Battle of Armageddon that will save Israel and the whole earth and at the beginning of the KOH reign of Christ with physical Israel of spiritual jews saved by the blood of Christ and the saints on earth who contain the old testament saints before the law and during the church period and includes the tribulation saints from the souls under the altar to the 144,000, the two witnesses and the blessed dead who didn't take the mark of the beast.

3. After the 1000 years that Satan has been bound in the pit so he cannot tempt the people on earth he will be loosed and he will deceive the nations of those people at that time who have not received Christ but have lived accordingly to the civil law.
God will destroy those at the last rebellion with fire from heaven.

4. After the GWTJ the New Heaven and the New Earth will be created.
So the 2nd renovation by fire is what Peter is talking about which happens at the end of the 1000 years because Christ has to reign first before he can do this renovation and before Christ can deliver up the KOH to the Father so God can be all in all. This is when the KOH earthly sphere will be in complete harmony with the KOG universal. This is why God will be all in all.
For your scenario to work and be the same thing Christ physical reign would have to be today for he must reign first before death can be done away with including sin and rebellion. This is why the Catholics misuse the spiritual reign of Christ now within the Davidic Covenant as the physical reign working through the church. This destroys the validity of the actual reality of the physical aspect of Isaiah 9:6-7. This is allegorical teaching to the extreme. This is also why they try to make the 1000 years as not being a literal 1000 years. Even if that were true it still would not hinder or do away with the progression of how the tribulation and the KOH unfold to the KOG all in all.
This is why they are accused of Replacement theology and being anti-semitic. They replace the physical nation with the church of today and because the Pope is the vicar of the earth and their church is the only church to get to God and be saved even Protestants who are their children is why many believe they are internally in the upper crest of the leadership they are anti-semitic.
Yes, God foreordained the church but he also foreordained the jewish nation and the covenants concerning Abraham are true for both and some are the same and some are not the same.
Salvation through the fulness of grace is for both jew and gentile in one body alike. It is also for the physical jews to be saved through grace and inherit the KOH to rule and reign. Jesus taught this when he said, Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth. This is still in effect for Israel and was the meaning only for Israel concerning the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4.
Members of the church in this age are to be meek because of who they are and not what they do and they will inherit the earth because he who suffers shall reign 2 Timothy 2:12. This doesn't mean that the church will be at the head of the nations or that the land promised to Israel in the Kingdom age will go to a mixture of jew and gentile of the church. Judaism was the culture of the jews not gentiles or gentile believers and it will be the way of living except under the new covenant and not the law of Moses.

So going back to the last renovation will be at the end of the Day of the Lord and will be the beginning of the Day of God of the New Heaven and the New Earth. This is what you refuse to believe. Once again you are wrong and do not understand proper context. Jerry kelso

Once again your "story" does not match the text.

In 2nd Peter chapter 3 we have the New Heavens and the New Earth coming on the Day of the Lord, which occurs at the Second Coming. The timing of the event is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and in Revelation 16:15 when Christ comes as a thief to the ungodly.

There is one people of God, not two.

Jesus told the Jews the kingdom would be taken from them...

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


... and it would be given to a nation bearing fruit.

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Once again your "story" does not match the text.

In 2nd Peter chapter 3 we have the New Heavens and the New Earth coming on the Day of the Lord, which occurs at the Second Coming. The timing of the event is found in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and in Revelation 16:15 when Christ comes as a thief to the ungodly.

There is one people of God, not two.

Jesus told the Jews the kingdom would be taken from them...

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


... and it would be given to a nation bearing fruit.

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

.

baberean2,

1. It doesn't say the New Heaven and the New Earth is coming on the Day of the Lord.

2. It says the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. It does not say that about the Day of God.

3. It says the Day of the Lord that the heavens shall pas away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

4. The Day of God is where the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

5. In a question form and verse 13 says in answer to the Day of God; Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

6. The heaven and earth will never be annihilated but will be purified by heat of fire.

7. The first time will be on the Day of the Lord after the battle of Armageddon and at the end of the 1000 years and the second time will be to bring in the New Heaven and the New Earth.

8. At the Day of the Lord Christ will just begin to reign. He will get rid of sin as in things that defile and unbelievers at that time but it will not be the final purification because sin and rebellion cannot be fully put down until Christ reigns a 1000 years. What part of this do you not understand. He cannot forever get rid of death until he reigns 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and this cannot be done until he reigns 1000 years Revelation 20:1-3,7.

9. There is one people and that is born again bought by the blood of the new covenant, jew and gentile alike.

10. The spiritual physical jews will be at the head of the nations ruling and not the church of jews and gentiles of this period.

11. This doesn't mean there are two people of God. That is a misleading statement from your opinion and your desire to thwart what the word of God says and what I have told you more than a few times. How dare you keep saying that I am saying something that I am not! That is wrong and sinful and you ought to apologize for it. All you want to do is try and prove your wrong doctrine. You need to quit doing that because it is unfair to say the least.

12. It would be different if you would have said in the beginning, I believe this is what you are saying. However, I have said it and explained it enough that you know better and that you are the one who is not being fair or truthful.

13. Jesus told the jews the KOG would be taken from them and given to another.
I have explained this time and time again and you keep thwarting the same thing the word of God says and means like I told in context.

14. It is talking about the spiritual aspect of the KOG which was the spiritual rule the jew was to have in Jesus day by believing in the Messiah and repenting Matthew 4:17 Repent for the KOH is at hand; Matthew 6:33; Seek ye first the KOH and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. Luke 17:20-21. The KOG cometh without observation.

15. You may have believed that I was saying something different but I wasn't and it is you who keeps making the same mistake of your faulty hermeneutics.

16. The KOG in this passage is not the PHYSICAL KOG LOT ALONE THE PHYSICAL KOH.
It wasn't the covenants about the physical nation of bloodline jews that was given to the gentiles but the spiritual aspect of the KOG which today is the new covenant. Before the cross it was not the death, burial and resurrection of Christ directly because Christ didn't preach it and they didn't have a clue about it. It was by believing he was the Messiah who would save them from their sins and set up the KOH so they could rule and reign.

17. Paul said, God had not forsaken his people the nation of Israel, not the church. You are wrong again and quit making these statements that try to cast a bad light on the truth of the word.

18. The church is a nation that is a micro-organism and Peter for the most part was talking to jews who were scattered and he did have much of the mindset about the KOH and the jews ruling the nations. He kept this message alive because he knew God had not forgotten his people. Him and Paul agreed but you want to use your spiritual jew theory to the extreme to diss what they both said, meant, and agreed upon. Shame on you.

19. So once again you are dead wrong and my story does match up because it is not my story but the bible's story.

20. You cannot debunk about the purification by fire on or right after the Day of the Lord and at the end of the Day of the Lord to make way for the Day of God when he will make a new heaven and new earth.

21. Christ cannot give the KOH over to God the Father at the Day of the Lord because he has to reign first for a 1000 years at that.

22. God will not be all in all until all sin and rebellion is put down and death done away with and the sinners judged. Give me a break and start being honest for a change. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

baberean2,

1. It doesn't say the New Heaven and the New Earth is coming on the Day of the Lord.

2. It says the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night. It does not say that about the Day of God.

3. It says the Day of the Lord that the heavens shall pas away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

4. The Day of God is where the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

5. In a question form and verse 13 says in answer to the Day of God; Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

6. The heaven and earth will never be annihilated but will be purified by heat of fire.

7. The first time will be on the Day of the Lord after the battle of Armageddon and at the end of the 1000 years and the second time will be to bring in the New Heaven and the New Earth.

8. At the Day of the Lord Christ will just begin to reign. He will get rid of sin as in things that defile and unbelievers at that time but it will not be the final purification because sin and rebellion cannot be fully put down until Christ reigns a 1000 years. What part of this do you not understand. He cannot forever get rid of death until he reigns 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and this cannot be done until he reigns 1000 years Revelation 20:1-3,7.

9. There is one people and that is born again bought by the blood of the new covenant, jew and gentile alike.

10. The spiritual physical jews will be at the head of the nations ruling and not the church of jews and gentiles of this period.

11. This doesn't mean there are two people of God. That is a misleading statement from your opinion and your desire to thwart what the word of God says and what I have told you more than a few times. How dare you keep saying that I am saying something that I am not! That is wrong and sinful and you ought to apologize for it. All you want to do is try and prove your wrong doctrine. You need to quit doing that because it is unfair to say the least.

12. It would be different if you would have said in the beginning, I believe this is what you are saying. However, I have said it and explained it enough that you know better and that you are the one who is not being fair or truthful.

13. Jesus told the jews the KOG would be taken from them and given to another.
I have explained this time and time again and you keep thwarting the same thing the word of God says and means like I told in context.

14. It is talking about the spiritual aspect of the KOG which was the spiritual rule the jew was to have in Jesus day by believing in the Messiah and repenting Matthew 4:17 Repent for the KOH is at hand; Matthew 6:33; Seek ye first the KOH and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. Luke 17:20-21. The KOG cometh without observation.

15. You may have believed that I was saying something different but I wasn't and it is you who keeps making the same mistake of your faulty hermeneutics.

16. The KOG in this passage is not the PHYSICAL KOG LOT ALONE THE PHYSICAL KOH.
It wasn't the covenants about the physical nation of bloodline jews that was given to the gentiles but the spiritual aspect of the KOG which today is the new covenant. Before the cross it was not the death, burial and resurrection of Christ directly because Christ didn't preach it and they didn't have a clue about it. It was by believing he was the Messiah who would save them from their sins and set up the KOH so they could rule and reign.

17. Paul said, God had not forsaken his people the nation of Israel, not the church. You are wrong again and quit making these statements that try to cast a bad light on the truth of the word.

18. The church is a nation that is a micro-organism and Peter for the most part was talking to jews who were scattered and he did have much of the mindset about the KOH and the jews ruling the nations. He kept this message alive because he knew God had not forgotten his people. Him and Paul agreed but you want to use your spiritual jew theory to the extreme to diss what they both said, meant, and agreed upon. Shame on you.

19. So once again you are dead wrong and my story does match up because it is not my story but the bible's story.

20. You cannot debunk about the purification by fire on or right after the Day of the Lord and at the end of the Day of the Lord to make way for the Day of God when he will make a new heaven and new earth.

21. Christ cannot give the KOH over to God the Father at the Day of the Lord because he has to reign first for a 1000 years at that.

22. God will not be all in all until all sin and rebellion is put down and death done away with and the sinners judged. Give me a break and start being honest for a change. Jerry Kelso

During the early years of the Plymouth Brethren, Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together. Later Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" doctrine of the Irvingites and divided scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church. When Newton would not accept Darby's new doctrine, Darby made a personal attack on Newton that split the group. If you debate modern Dispensationalists sooner or later the same thing happens.

In the post above, you have said I have been sinful and need to apologize for it.

I have plainly shown throughout our discussion that the Dispensational interpretation does not match the text.
Your claim that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are different is just one of many examples.

A parallel study of the Gospels reveals the error of this logic.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


When you are shown that the text does not match what you are claiming, you just ignore it and continue with the "story".

.

 

[jerry kelso]

During the early years of the Plymouth Brethren, Benjamin Newton and John Darby worked together. Later Darby adopted the "Secret Rapture" doctrine of the Irvingites and divided scripture into that for the Jews and that for the Church. When Newton would not accept Darby's new doctrine, Darby made a personal attack on Newton that split the group. If you debate modern Dispensationalists sooner or later the same thing happens.

In the post above, you have said I have been sinful and need to apologize for it.

I have plainly shown throughout our discussion that the Dispensational interpretation does not match the text.
Your claim that the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are different is just one of many examples.

A parallel study of the Gospels reveals the error of this logic.

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.



Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luk 9:2 And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Mat 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.


When you are shown that the text does not match what you are claiming, you just ignore it and continue with the "story".

.

baberean2,

1. Once again you have to go on a rabbit trail to try and prove your point about the rapture.
You cannot prove from Revelation your post rapture and you cannot debunk what the scriptures say that I have shown you.

2. Once again you have to try to make an argument of dispensationalism teachers and where you think they go wrong and some things they may say that are not perfect.
It doesn't matter to me because I believe in what the context of the scripture and the proper historical context of the subject across the board.
You are so interested in debunking the dispensational system of thinking that you miss the truth and it is because you want to prop up your denominational berean doctrine up and I am not trying to defend the system so it is you that are into the teachings of men. How sad that is.

3. Once again you want to confuse the issue on the KOH and the KOG because you want to make them identical in every respect and they are not the same in their respective physical aspects or spiritual aspects.
What I mean by that is the the KOH is the earthly sphere of the universal KOG which is the whole universe.
The KOG universal as far as the physical universe can be interchangeable for lack of better terms with the KOH physical aspect because the KOH earth is a part of the whole universe.
The KOH in it's spiritual aspect contains spiritual things. However, the jews were never told to seek the KOH physical kingdom for spiritual salvation.
Matthew 6:33 and Luke 17:20-21 both concern the spiritual factor in the term of the KOG which was the spiritual rule in their hearts.

4. Matthew is the only one who uses the term KOH and it was jewish in nature. It is never used in the church era. The KOG is love, joy and peace etc. The Kingdom of his dear Son is what we are translated in spiritually which deals with salvation through the cross.

5. Matthew 4:17 is the Physical KOH and they were to repent in order to be eligible to enter into the physical KOH reign on earth.

6. Mark 1:14, Jesus was preaching the gospel of the KOG which is the spiritual aspect of the KOG.

7. Verse 15; the KOG was at hand was physical because the KOH was a part of the KOG. They were to repent and believe the gospel which was of the spiritual aspect of the KOG in verse 14.

8. Matthew 11:11-12; This passage Jesus is speaking John the Baptist and what the jews saw and how the scripture said he was more than a prophet because he was God's messenger to prepare the way for the Messiah. He was the forerunner of Christ.
As great as John the Baptist was notwithstanding the least in the KOH was greater than he. This is because they were coming into the KOH for the time was at hand for the law and the prophets could only prophesy whereas John was preparing and introducing the reality which was the Messiah Jesus Christ. This was the physical KOH.

9. Luke 16:16; Jesus was answering to the pharisees hypocrisy and covetousness and trying to serve two masters and being pious by being highly esteemed among the people and yet God saw them as an abomination.

10. The law and prophets were until John; since that time the KOG is preached, and every man presseth into it. Again the reality was Jesus Christ and the fulfillment physically of the law and prophets and the spiritual KOG was preached for salvation and they pressed into it.

11. Matthew 10:7; KOH was the physical KOH at hand and they preached so they could enter in.

12. Luke 9:2 KOG-spiritual aspect to be preached

13. Matthew 19:23-24; Jesus was talking to the young man who had great possessions in verse 22. KOH for the rich man to enter was the physical KOH. Verse 24 uses the term the KOG as the spiritual aspect. That is why the disciples were amazed and asked in the next verse, Who then can be saved?

14. So your view of the scriptures do not match and it is because you choose not to recognize the differences of the KOH and the KOG.

15. The jews recognize these differences and and they will agree also that there are two different kingdoms and yet just one Physical KOG because it is the whole universe and the physical earth is a small sphere of the universe. You cannot deny this.

16. There are many kingdoms on the earth but they all are a part of the universe. Jesus will come to claim and take over all these kingdoms in the future according to Revelation 11:15.

17. Once again I have explained all this again among multiple times and you don't understand it or just ignore it or just don't want to believe the truth. You are trying to squeeze blood out of turnips and you are the one who is bleeding and dying from such out of context posts.

18. Once again you have failed to prove your point on the KOH and the KOG and more than that you have failed to debunk the scriptural position I have given. The reason you think you are always proving is because you don't and can't debunk what I have shown with the scriptures and proper context etc. All you can do is prove your point with wrong context and building up straw men. You have tunnel vision and with tunnel vision will never come to the truth on the KOH and the KOG across the board and the same with the Pre-tribulation rapture.

19. You can claim what you believe to your context but you cannot prove you are right to the biblical context. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

You have tunnel vision and with tunnel vision will never come to the truth on the KOH and the KOG across the board and the same with the Pre-tribulation rapture.

Then I am in good company.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American preacher taught a pretrib removal of the Church when the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Then I am in good company.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, no American preacher taught a pretrib removal of the Church when the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776.

.

1. No American preacher?
That don't mean a thing because there were preachers and theologians that believed in the Byzantine Empire and through the Dark Ages which would not be known very well because of the RCC.

2. Daniel didn't know the whole matter and was told that it would not be revealed till the end of times.

3. As far as Darby is concerned, he received and made known the timing of the rapture 3 years before Macpherson told her vision and her vision said nothing about a pre-trib rapture.
Her account either way is irrelevant like I have said before because it is what the Bible says and means in its proper context.

4. There were many things that couldn't be understood about the pre-trib rapture when Israel wasn't even a nation until 1948.

5. Now you can argue this wasn't of God prophetically and it would appear to be true for they still are backslidden but there are jews that can show the scriptures for this and the fact is that the nation had to be re-established because in the tribulation they will be the center focus of the 10 horns and the Antichrist and they are now as well.


6. I have more to base on the scripture about the position of Israel the nation in the light of prophecy concerning them being a nation today and the hatred of Ishmael's descendants the Arab's which the bible says the hand would always would be against them.

7. Do you understand anything that is going on right now politically with the NWO and how they do not like Israel for the most part and how the Arabs want to annihilate them completely and yet you believe they have no prophetic significant in the future.

8. You have no scriptural basis to prove your post trib rapture because no american preacher supposedly preached nothing but the post trib rapture view. Get some common sense for a change. Once again you are wrong. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

1. No American preacher?
That don't mean a thing because there were preachers and theologians that believed in the Byzantine Empire and through the Dark Ages which would not be known very well because of the RCC.

2. Daniel didn't know the whole matter and was told that it would not be revealed till the end of times.

3. As far as Darby is concerned, he received and made known the timing of the rapture 3 years before Macpherson told her vision and her vision said nothing about a pre-trib rapture.
Her account either way is irrelevant like I have said before because it is what the Bible says and means in its proper context.

4. There were many things that couldn't be understood about the pre-trib rapture when Israel wasn't even a nation until 1948.

5. Now you can argue this wasn't of God prophetically and it would appear to be true for they still are backslidden but there are jews that can show the scriptures for this and the fact is that the nation had to be re-established because in the tribulation they will be the center focus of the 10 horns and the Antichrist and they are now as well.


6. I have more to base on the scripture about the position of Israel the nation in the light of prophecy concerning them being a nation today and the hatred of Ishmael's descendants the Arab's which the bible says the hand would always would be against them.

7. Do you understand anything that is going on right now politically with the NWO and how they do not like Israel for the most part and how the Arabs want to annihilate them completely and yet you believe they have no prophetic significant in the future.

8. You have no scriptural basis to prove your post trib rapture because no american preacher supposedly preached nothing but the post trib rapture view. Get some common sense for a change. Once again you are wrong. Jerry Kelso

Jerry,

One of my former pastors gave a sermon explaining how we do not have to world about global government, because we will be raptured off the planet before it happens.

After I sat down in his office and talked to him about it, he then gave me two books to read written by Tim LaHaye.

In other words he was telling me that God will take His best souldiers off the field of battle 7 years before Christ returns.

It was a good "story" that he told.

Sister Corrie Ten Boom is one of my heroes.

She and the rest of her family loved the Jewish people so much that they hid them from the Nazis during WWII. When they were discovered they were all sent to the concentration camps. Some of Corrie's family died in the camps. In 1974 Corrie wrote a letter telling about the damage she had seen which was done by the false pretrib doctrine, in countries under persecution. That persecution could be coming here.

There is currently a case pending in Iowa where churches are being told the government can control the content of the church's sermons.

http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/government-claims-power-to-control-content-of-sermons/


In this video clip, a modern woman from the U.S. reads Corrie's letter.

.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

One of my former pastors gave a sermon explaining how we do not have to world about global government, because we will be raptured off the planet before it happens.

After I sat down in his office and talked to him about it, he then gave me two books to read written by Tim LaHaye.

In other words he was telling me that God will take His best souldiers off the field of battle 7 years before Christ returns.

It was a good "story" that he told.

Sister Corrie Ten Boom is one of my heroes.

She and the rest of her family loved the Jewish people so much that they hid them from the Nazis during WWII. When they were discovered they were all sent to the concentration camps. Some of Corrie's family died in the camps. In 1974 Corrie wrote a letter telling about the damage she had seen which was done by the false pretrib doctrine, in countries under persecution. That persecution could be coming here.

There is currently a case pending in Iowa where churches are being told the government can control the content of the church's sermons.

http://www.wnd.com/2016/07/government-claims-power-to-control-content-of-sermons/


In this video clip, a modern woman from the U.S. reads Corrie's letter.

.

berean2,

1. I never said there would be no tribulation and Jesus said this to the jews and Paul said if ye suffer ye shall reign to the church.

2. I have told you that the Bible says to occupy till he comes.

3. As believers we overcome tribulation in the church age whether it be by being a martyr or not.

4. The lady in the video had much tribulation and say many die so she would automatically think there is no missing the tribulation.
We are talking about not being here during the Great Tribulation which is a specific period concerning the time of Jacob's trouble which concern's the nation of Israel's purging to fulfill their covenants of Abraham and David which involves a specific piece of land that covers a specific area larger than it is now and it involves rulership which David will be the King over all Israel and Christ will be King over all the earth and the earthly Jerusalem will be the capitol of the earth.

5. The people in the hall of faith were looking for a better country that they were promised and did not receive at that time but were proud to be martyrs for Christ Hebrews 11:13, 33-40.

6. Once again you have failed to understand the scriptures which are above all accounts.
It would be contradictory to teach escapism from your point of view or even the ladies from Corrie Ten Boom's day.
I have said before the timing of the rapture is important and that even at that we have to occupy until he comes whether pre, mid, or post.
Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his disciples who were jews and said if it wasn't for days being shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. He was talking about the jewish elect. There will be gentile saints in the tribulation and they are martyred and will be a part of the tribulation saints.
The old testament saints were not all martyr's even though some individual's were. Today, there are martyrs of the church and some are not. There is no where in scripture that says the church has to go through the Great Tribulation or the Time of Jacob's trouble especially to be purged. The bible says nothing shall prevail against the church. These are true believers not the professing church. This is why the church is weak because of wrong teaching and thinking the professing church is the true church and it is not.

7. Yes, we will overcome all things to inherit all things in our appropriate time. We cannot be on earth to meet Christ in the air and then go back to Heaven to automatically come out of Heaven to do battle with those on earth because we are in heaven before the tribulation Revelation 5:9-10, during Revelation 11:18, and right before coming out of Heaven Revelation 19:7-10,11-15.

8. The old testament saints didn't receive the promises how they understood it and yet we are faithful.
I have never agreed with Tim LaHaye of escaping to become lax about the gospel. If that is the case with how it is taught are not taught to occupy and to be faithful until the end whether they are martyred.
People can get lax and do get lax because of the post trib because they believe they can sow their wild oats and get saved later.
Many post tribbers are of Dominion theology and believe they will bring in the Kingdom by preaching to the whole world and this can deceive people to believe all will get better before the post coming.

9. So there are all kinds of reasons that can be said to be laxed in any position.
This is why the truth of the Bible is what counts.
Enoch was translated before the flood which was judgement upon all the earth. This is said to be a type of the rapture of the church.
Paul said, if ye suffer ye shall reign but didn't say everyone would have to be a martyr but even he was a martyr himself. Paul was the one who revealed the rapture that didn't have nothing to do with the second coming of which he knew well what that was.

10. The old testament doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and there was no understanding about living people being resurrected with them. John 11:24 Martha mentioned about the resurrection of the last day of the dead because her brother was dead and she was talking about knowing he would be resurrected the last day. This goes with the book of Revelation that shows that last day of a resurrection are only dead believers Revelation 15:1-2, 20:4-6.
Hebrews 6:1-2 talks about these old testament doctrines which were the principles of the doctrine of Christ who taught the old testament law of Moses and they were to leave those and go onto perfection which was the new covenant of the death, burial and resurrection.
Paul revealed the mystery of the church and the rapture of the living believers and the dead believers which the new testament only understand the last day resurrection of the dead.

11. So once again you are wrong according to the word of God. Now if you think you can show the rapture at the second coming from the book of Revelation go ahead. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to his disciples who were jews and said if it wasn't for days being shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. He was talking about the jewish elect.

He had already told these men about His Church in Matthew chapter 16 and the Great Commission to the Church is found at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

Yes, they were Jewish and Christ already knew they would be the Apostles who would lead His Church.

He was talking to the first members of the New Covenant Church.

"So once again you are wrong according to the word of God. Now if you think you can show the rapture at the second coming from the book of Revelation go ahead."

Every time I have done so, you ignore it.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

(Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Jesus said the candlesticks are symbols of the churches.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?)

Paul said the two Olive Trees are a symbol of the Church, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted together.


Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Here we have the Olive Trees and the Candlesticks, which are a symbol of the Church according to Jesus and Paul, are resurrected and taken up into a cloud.
How much clearer could it be?


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.




.

 

[jerry kelso]

He had already told these men about His Church in Matthew chapter 16 and the Great Commission to the Church is found at the end of Matthew's Gospel.

Yes, they were Jewish and Christ already knew they would be the Apostles who would lead His Church.

He was talking to the first members of the New Covenant Church.

"So once again you are wrong according to the word of God. Now if you think you can show the rapture at the second coming from the book of Revelation go ahead."

Every time I have done so, you ignore it.


Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

(Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Jesus said the candlesticks are symbols of the churches.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?)

Paul said the two Olive Trees are a symbol of the Church, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles grafted together.


Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Here we have the Olive Trees and the Candlesticks, which are a symbol of the Church according to Jesus and Paul, are resurrected and taken up into a cloud.
How much clearer could it be?


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.




.

baberean2,

1. The jewish nation had already rejected Jesus when Jesus made the statement about the future of the new covenant. That is why the gospel started at Calvary and afterwards the Great Commission.

2. I don't disagree the apostles were the first in the church because Israel were the ones with the covenants and not the gentiles. Everyone knew the gentiles would be saved through Israel but they didn't understand about the mystery of the church of jew and gentile on the same level.
The mystery of the church is different than the gospel of the new covenant to be saved. So these are two different things that you are trying to use to muddy up the waters.

3. The essence of Jesus telling them that they would suffer persecution and they would be killed Matthew 10:16-20 came true later on and it also Jesus made reference to the future tribulation concerning the jews and their purification to become a righteous nation Matthew 24:9-24.
Nation didn't rise against nation at 70 A.D. such as will happen in the future tribulation, it was the jews were trying to stay alive and it was the Romans that annihilated them and the temple etc.
In the last days jews will trying to survive but nations will rise against nation before and it is called the beginning of sorrows. Plus the fact the whole world had not been populated so the second coming couldn't have happened at 70 A.D. which is a preterist view.
Once again you are confused with the proper context.

4. You have not proved anything from the book of Revelation alone of a post trib rapture involving living saints coming from the earth and the dead in Christ coming out of heaven to meet in the clouds and then go back to Heaven to come straight out of Heaven to do battle at Armageddon. You have to get scriptures from other books and build up straw men to do this.
Those in the first resurrection are the tribulation saints who have martyred and who have gone to heaven and they were resurrected and in Heaven before the 7 vials which was months before the second coming of Christ.
Common sense tells you that you have no leg to stand and you are just trying to uphold your wrong doctrine.

5. The two witnesses are not the church of jews and gentiles and besides the two witnesses are raptured in the middle of the tribulation and the remnant are looking on. At the second coming the remnant will be looking for them to come down from Heaven to save them as in Revelation 19:11-15. Instead the are giving glory to God that they have been raised from the dead.

6. Jesus said the candlesticks were churches that doesn't mean it is the same as the 2 witnesses in Revelation 11 because it wasn't the same as in Zechariah's day for there was no church of jew and gentile. Your reasoning once again is flawed.

7. Paul explained the blessing of gentiles came through Israel and because of Israel's rejection the gentiles would be an avenue of blessing and for jealously to Israel to come back to God as a nation when the time comes. You are wrong in your assessment and the context of the word.

8. Revelation 11:15 will be in the middle of the tribulation and it is being said for the purpose to show that the time has come for the time of Jacob's trouble that will make the way for the second coming. It wasn't fulfilled until the end of the tribulation.

9. Revelation 11:18 was spoken in the middle of the tribulation and the nations were angry and the wrath has come and the time of the dead that they should be judged will happen at the end of the tribulation, the reward of the prophets and saints are happening in the middle of the tribulation for they are already there. Prophets and the church are in heaven till the end of the tribulation and those earth dwellers trying to destroy will be destroyed at the end of the tribulation.
In the overall context and all together the first part of verse 18 will not happen till after the middle of the tribulation and those destroyers at the battle of Armageddon.
Once again you are wrong like usual and you need to learn the proper context and how to reconcile them together. You still cannot show the post trib rapture view in the book of Revelation alone. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation 11:15 will be in the middle of the tribulation and it is being said for the purpose to show that the time has come for the time of Jacob's trouble that will make the way for the second coming. It wasn't fulfilled until the end of the tribulation.

9. Revelation 11:18 was spoken in the middle of the tribulation and the nations were angry and the wrath has come and the time of the dead that they should be judged will happen at the end of the tribulation, the reward of the prophets and saints are happening in the middle of the tribulation for they are already there.

Jerry,

So, the 7th trumpet at Revelation 11:15 is the last trumpet in the Bible and you claim this is the middle of the tribulation.

Then you turn around and say the time of the judgment of the dead, which is found at Revelation 11:18 will happen at the end of the tribulation.

This Dispensational logic does not compute.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

As the lies about the origins of the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation have popped up again, I will only say that these have been thoroughly proved to be lies, again and again, and the proof has been repearedly presented to the man who continues to circulate them here.

This doctrine most certainly did not originate with Irving's group, but has been taught by numerous others throughout the entire history of the church. It was taught in early and late ancient times, in early and mid medieval times, in the time of the enlightenment, in the time of the industrial revolution, and even by two writers in the early years of the nineteenth century, before Irving began to teach it.

Being a student of church history, I personally spent literally years studying the split between Darby and Newton, and its effect on the Plymouth brethren. And I truly believe that I have devoted more time to the study of this subject than any other living man. As a result of that study, I can confidently assure anyone that their split had nothing to do with eschatology. It was about ecclesiology, and nothing else. Later, after the initial split was finalized, Darby raised a second accusation against Newton. And this accusation again had nothing to do with eschatology. It was about Christology, and nothing else.

I am aware that there were some that claimed that their split was really about the pre-tribulation rapture. But that accusation is simply not true.

I did not just read, but I studied, the entirety of the many hundreds of pages that Darby wrote about this split and the one that followed it. Darby "threw the book at" Newton. But in all these many hundreds of pages, he never made Newton's rejection of the pre-tribulation rapture an accusation at all. Indeed, Darby's ecclesiastical doctrines formally forbade division between Christians over such matters as eschatology.

And as a side note, my personal library contained well over sixty volumes written by Darby, as well as a great many more written by his associates. But as all of their writings are now far more easily available online, I recently donated most of these books to other ministries.

 

[jerry kelso]

Jerry,

So, the 7th trumpet at Revelation 11:15 is the last trumpet in the Bible and you claim this is the middle of the tribulation.

Then you turn around and say the time of the judgment of the dead, which is found at Revelation 11:18 will happen at the end of the tribulation.

This Dispensational logic does not compute.

.

baberean2,

1. The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet in the book of Revelation. It is not the last trump that will ever be blown concerning Israel.
You have to understand that there are many trumpets blown during the feasts.

2. The 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials are all in succession one after another; the 7 seals first, the 7 trumpets second and the 7 vials last. This covers the Wrath of the lamb that covers the 7 trumpets that are blown.
The Wrath of God covers the time of the 7 vials that are poured out.

3. Revelation 1 John is addressing the churches in verse 4 and the maine them is the second coming is in verse 7.
The book is for the 7 churches of Asia but it is also for the church age for it is a prophecy and the revelation of Jesus Christ Revelation 1:1-3.
John sees the vision of the seven candlesticks and the seven stars which are the 7 churches and the 7 angels or pastors of the church. The vision shows Christ in the middle of the candlesticks.

4. Chapter 2 and 3 are about the conditions of the church and how they are in every age of the church. Chapter 3 the church age is over and in Revelation 4 they are raptured to heaven because John is caught up through the door of heaven and shown the things that would be after the church age. There is the throne room scene with the 24 elders who represent the saints who will rule the earth and who cast their crowns before the throne.

5. Revelation 5 The lion of Judah is the one worthy to open the book which is written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals Revelation 5:1. This book contains the judgements to redeem the earth for he is the kinsman Redeemer in the book of Ruth.

6. Revelation 6 the seals are opened and reveal different horsemen which is the antichrist coming to power and most likely the 10 horns as well of which he comes up among.
The first martyrs are the souls under the altar who are told to wait for their brethren to be killed which would be the second half tribulation saints. Then there are signs in the heaven etc at the end of the 6th seal and the wrath of the lamb is fixing to come.

7. The 1st parenthetical is Revelation 7 with the 144,000 jews who are preserved through the trumpet judgements and are in heaven in the middle of the tribulation as the manchild. The great multitude of earthlings in heaven and before the throne worshipping and John is asked by one of the elders of those arrayed in white robes? John didn't know but the elder did and it was the last half of the tribulation that came through great tribulation which would be the 2nd half of the tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble.

8. Revelation 8 starts with the 7th seal and there is silence of a half hour which is about the time in the Yom Kippur service and these angels are preparing to blow. These trumpet angels are all a part of the wrath of the lamb Revelation 8 and 9.

10. Revelation 10 is a parenthetical and it is about the book that the Lion of Judah had opened with the 7 seals and it is written within these other judgements. John eats this book which is symbolic and is sweet as honey because of the good that will come and yet bitter to the belly of what judgements will come.

11. Verse 7 says the mystery of God would be finished in the days of the voice of the seventh angel. It couldn't have been the immediate kingdoms of the world becoming Christ which is the second coming for that was no mystery. The mystery was in Revelation 12 which is not a parenthetical but is actually happening with the sun clothed woman (Israel) Manchild (144,000) Dragon (Satan). After Satan cannot kill the manchild Satan and his angels go to heaven and do battle and is cast out of heaven so he cannot be the accuser of the brethren any longer. He no longer has access to the throne to accuse the brethren.
12. Revelation 11 is the AOD of the temple that is to be rebuilt. 2 witnesses which are two individuals that protects Israel and some say the building of the temple which take 3.5 years to build which would put this in the first half of the tribulation concerning the temple. I don't know that I totally agree with the 2 witnesses would be in the first half especially if Elijah and Enoch are the 2 witnesses. Also, the earthquake that is mentioned in this passage seems to go with the one in the end of the tribulation. The remnant is not mentioned until Chapter 12 which is not a parenthetical, and they are fleeing in the middle of the tribulation because Satan is fixing to turn over the reins to the Antichrist in chapter 13.

13. So the remnant is fleeing in Revelation 12 in the middle of the tribulation and watching the 2 witnesses resurrect in Revelation 11 and giving God glory would seem to be at the end of the tribulation.

14. Revelation 13 is about the Antichrist kingdom and the False prophet as his religious leader.

15. Revelation 14 The 144,000 are in heaven and the 3 messenger angels and the blessed dead anouncement.

16. Revelation 15 are the tribulation saints in the last half of the tribulation who don't take the mark of the beast and sing the song of Moses and the lamb showing that jews will have the new covenant. This is right before the 7 vials are poured out in Revelation 16. These are the martyrs that are in the first resurrection and are resurrected so the Wrath of God can be poured out on the beast kingdom worshippers in Revelation 16 and this leads up to the battle of Armageddon where the saints will come out of heaven with Christ to do battle one earth.

17. So as you can see just because something is mentioned in one place doesn't mean that it is fulfilled right then and there. You have to understand the proper contexts and make sure they line up with each other.

18. The parenthetical passages work in and around the 7 seals and can be mentioned in one passage and fulfilled in another passage.

19. Look at the 144,000; they are mentioned in the 1st parenthetical in chapter 7 and sealed right then but go all the way to the 2nd half of the tribulation before they are raptured to heaven.

20. The 2 witnesses are mentioned in the middle of the tribulation but there ministry is in the last half and they are killed in the last half of the tribulation.
You still cannot show a post trib rapture at the second coming of Christ just in the book of Revelation.

21. You can't even show it in Revelation 15 before the 7 vials are poured out for they are all martyrs that are in heaven and the only ones mentioned in the first resurrection in Revelation 20. There are different raptures at different times.

22. I'll mention them one more time. Christ the first fruits who was dead and rose again. Afterward they that are at Christ coming which would be the pre-trib rapture for we are in Christ.

23. The ones not mentioned are the martyred souls under the altar in heaven; no rapture given, the 144,000 who are living jewish souls raptured to the throne, redeemed from among men and redeemed from the earth and nothing about the dead in Christ being raised from the earth with them.

24. The 2 witnesses who are martyrs and raptured to heaven without any living believers from earth.

25. The tribulation saints of the blessed dead who are martyrs to round out the first resurrection and there are no living saints raptured with them in Revelation 15 or Revelation 20.

26. So your theory of a post rapture at the second coming is untrue and you cannot and have not proved it from those contexts yet and you won't be able to and you know it. You have to build up straw men from other passages to build your false scenario. Jerry kelso

 

[BABerean2]

As the lies about the origins of the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation have popped up again, I will only say that these have been thoroughly proved to be lies, again and again, and the proof has been repearedly presented to the man who continues to circulate them here.

This doctrine most certainly did not originate with Irving's group, but has been taught by numerous others throughout the entire history of the church. It was taught in early and late ancient times, in early and mid medieval times, in the time of the enlightenment, in the time of the industrial revolution, and even by two writers in the early years of the nineteenth century, before Irving began to teach it.

Being a student of church history, I personally spent literally years studying the split between Darby and Newton, and its effect on the Plymouth brethren. And I truly believe that I have devoted more time to the study of this subject than any other living man. As a result of that study, I can confidently assure anyone that their split had nothing to do with eschatology. It was about ecclesiology, and nothing else. Later, after the initial split was finalized, Darby raised a second accusation against Newton. And this accusation again had nothing to do with eschatology. It was about Christology, and nothing else.

I am aware that there were some that claimed that their split was really about the pre-tribulation rapture. But that accusation is simply not true.

I did not just read, but I studied, the entirety of the many hundreds of pages that Darby wrote about this split and the one that followed it. Darby "threw the book at" Newton. But in all these many hundreds of pages, he never made Newton's rejection of the pre-tribulation rapture an accusation at all. Indeed, Darby's ecclesiastical doctrines formally forbade division between Christians over such matters as eschatology.

And as a side note, my personal library contained well over sixty volumes written by Darby, as well as a great many more written by his associates. But as all of their writings are now far more easily available online, I recently donated most of these books to other ministries.

When given a choice between a man who claims to currently be the world's foremost apologist for John Nelson Darby and others who are independent researchers, the readers of this forum will have to decide for themselves who is telling the unvarnished version of the truth.

The sources below provide the second option.

I have listed the article about Grant Jeffrey at the top of the list, because when it comes to telling the truth about the history of the Pretrib doctrine, his revision of the historical facts would be a good place to start.


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

Left Behind or Led Astray?
Good Fight Ministries
http://www.leftbehindorledastray.com/

 

[Biblewriter]

When given a choice between a man who claims to currently be the world's foremost apologist for John Nelson Darby and others who are independent researchers, the readers of this forum will have to decide for themselves who is telling the unvarnished version of the truth.

Look back and find when and where I ever even implied that I am even an apologist for John Nelson Darby. I am a historian and a Bible student. In the past, I was particularly interested in the contention between Darby and Newton, which eventually led to a division of the Plymouth brethren into two groups, the Exclusive brethren (Darby's group) and the Open brethren. The end result of this extensive study was that I left Darby's group and am now part of the Open camp, not of the Exclusive camp. But as I said, that contention was about ecclesiology, not about eschatology.

You believe who you want to believe, because you want to believe it. But the evidence is readily available for anyone who wants to know the truth. And the actual facts are exactly the opposite of what you want to believe.

The only way to certify that someone never said such-and-such, is to review everything he said on the point. So it is impossible to prove that Darby did not say any particular thing. So in this case, the only available witness is an expert witness, which in this particular case is me. So I agree that I have not, and can not, prove that Darby, or for that matter, anyone else, never said any particular thing. But everyone even slightly familiar with the contention knows what it was about. And if you study the claims made by those that say something else, you will notice that they are pure opinion, not backed by any facts whatsoever. They cite the debate between Darby and Newton about eschatology, which indeed took place, and then, without a shred of historical evidence, claim that this was the real source of their eventual separation. But everyone who has even the slightest knowledge of the doctrines of the Plymouth brethren knows that they never did, and still do not, separate over differences of opinion. To this day there are still many anti-dispensationalists and anti-pre-tribbers in the Plymouth Brethren. We often energetically debate eschatology during the week, and then on Sunday we all sit down together and worship our common Lord. We do the same in regard to other subjects as well. We do not allow differences of opinion to separate us. But we do resolutely separate from others in regard to doctrines which deny the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

But I have indeed proved that many others taught a rapture before the great tribulation, and at least the main elements of dispensationalism, throughout the history of the church. And I have indeed proved that others, even in Darby's lifetime, taught both a pre-tribulation rapture and a fully developed dispensationalism well before Irving or Darby did. So I have indeed conclusively proved that the rest of what you are alleging is false. And I have presented this proof to you. Yet you continue to circulate these same lies.
<staff edit>
In my earnestness to defend my positions on eschatology, I have occasionally erred. But when others have presented the proof that what I said was not correct, I stopped saying it. And in one case I even dropped a point because someone here correctly pointed out to me that I could not prove what I was saying.

 

[BABerean2]

Look back and find when and where I ever even implied that I am even an apologist for John Nelson Darby. I am a historian and a Bible student. In the past, I was particularly interested in the contention between Darby and Newton, which eventually led to a division of the Plymouth brethren into two groups, the Exclusive brethren (Darby's group) and the Open brethren. The end result of this extensive study was that I left Darby's group and am now part of the Open camp, not of the Exclusive camp. But as I said, that contention was about ecclesiology, not about eschatology.

You believe who you want to believe, because you want to believe it. But the evidence is readily available for anyone who wants to know the truth. And the actual facts are exactly the opposite of what you want to believe.

The only way to certify that someone never said such-and-such, is to review everything he said on the point. So it is impossible to prove that Darby did not say any particular thing. So in this case, the only available witness is an expert witness, which in this particular case is me. So I agree that I have not, and can not, prove that Darby, or for that matter, anyone else, never said any particular thing. But everyone even slightly familiar with the contention knows what it was about. And if you study the claims made by those that say something else, you will notice that they are pure opinion, not backed by any facts whatsoever. They cite the debate between Darby and Newton about eschatology, which indeed took place, and then, without a shred of historical evidence, claim that this was the real source of their eventual separation. But everyone who has even the slightest knowledge of the doctrines of the Plymouth brethren knows that they never did, and still do not, separate over differences of opinion. To this day there are still many anti-dispensationalists and anti-pre-tribbers in the Plymouth Brethren. We often energetically debate eschatology during the week, and then on Sunday we all sit down together and worship our common Lord. We do the same in regard to other subjects as well. We do not allow differences of opinion to separate us. But we do resolutely separate from others in regard to doctrines which deny the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

But I have indeed proved that many others taught a rapture before the great tribulation, and at least the main elements of dispensationalism, throughout the history of the church. And I have indeed proved that others, even in Darby's lifetime, taught both a pre-tribulation rapture and a fully developed dispensationalism well before Irving or Darby did. So I have indeed conclusively proved that the rest of what you are alleging is false. And I have presented this proof to you. Yet you continue to circulate these same lies.

Nor is it sufficient to hide behind the fact that others say what you want to believe. For when you continue to circulate statements, pretending that they are historically significant, after you have seen the proof that these statements are not true, you are willfully presenting disinformation. This is not the behavior of a godly Christian.

In my earnestness to defend my positions on eschatology, I have occasionally erred. But when others have presented the proof that what I said was not correct, I stopped saying it. And in one case I even dropped a point because someone here correctly pointed out to me that I could not prove what I was saying.

 

[jerry kelso]

baberean2,

1. The concept of a pre-trib rapture is represented as a type of Enoch Genesis 5:24 before the flood.
Moses in Revelation 19 was taken up to the mount and raptured up to heaven.
Noah escaped tribulation of the earth in the ark of safety.
Lot escaped the wrath of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Rahab escaped the falling of the walls of Jericho.
Escaping particular tribulations or wrath of God is not knew and being rapture up to Heaven escaping tribulation and wrath is not knew as Enoch did and even Elijah who escaped Ahab and Jezebel who were trying to kill him.

2. The concept of a pre-tri rapture was also taught by Dr. John Gill in 1748 and by Peter Jerihu in 1687 and alluded to by Ephraim the Syrian A.D. 373 and the Shepherd of Hermas taught 10 years after the Revelation was written by John.
So the theory that the pre-tribulation was never before 1830 by the woman who prophesied is debunked, not to mention that Darby understood and mapped out this view 3 years before the woman in 1830.

3. Tekiah Ha Godolah is the longest and the loudest last trumpet blast during the Feast of Trumpets.
Rosh Hashanah is the civil New Year on the Hebrew Calendar Matthew 24:36 where nobody knows the hour or day.
The rapture is a pattern of the feast of trumpets which is tied into the jewish wedding which is a picture of the marriage of Messiah. When the groom came to receive his bride, the wedding celebration continued for 7 days. This may be why the suggestion or implication is why the church will be in Heaven for the entire tribulation.
Revelation 8-11 the 7 trumpets are in the middle of the tribulation and are judgements of natural disasters on earth. This is why it could not be the feast of trumpets.
The tribulation is parallel to events on the Day of Atonement (when the nation of Israel was judged).
The feast of tabernacles represents the future Kingdom of the Messiah ruling on earth.

4. So Christ was crucified near Passover in the tomb during unleavened bread and seen alive during 1st fruits. The church was birthed at Pentecost.
3 fall feasts have future fulfillment.
This means that the rapture is paralleled to the feast of trumpets before the tribulation which is paralleled to events on the Day of Atonement (when the nation of Israel was judged).
The feast of tabernacles is represented by the kingdom of the Messiah ruling on earth.
God's order cannot be changed.

5. There is nowhere in Revelation that says there is or implies a rapture of living saints from the earth meeting Christ coming with the dead in Christ from Heaven to the clouds after the tribulation and right before the second coming.
The First resurrection is the out resurrection of believers among the dead sinners. They are at different times: Christ the first fruits, those that are at his coming, (pre tribulation rapture saints).
In the tribulation the martyrs of the souls under the altar are seen in heaven.
The 144,000 are raptured alive in the middle of the tribulation because they are seen in Mt. Sion which is the Heavenly Mt. Sion and they are before the throne of God.
The blessed dead are in the 2nd half of the tribulation which sing the song of Moses and the Lamb and are the martyrs that didn't take the mark of the beast which are the same as in Revelation 20:4-6 and they are resurrected as the last group and there is no mention or implication of living saints resurrected with them. Also, they are raptured before the 7 vials of wrath which are after the 7 seals and the 7 trumpets.
You would have to believe that the 7th seal, 7th trumpet and the 7th vial happen at the same time but who says it takes a half hour to get from heaven to earth and who says there would be silence for the 4 beasts alone worship without stopping day and night forever.
The 7th trumpet is in the middle of the tribulation and not at the end and the 7th vial follows after the 7 trumpets are blown.

6. So once again you are misinformed and so concentrated on dispensationalists that you miss the teaching of what the bible really says. The patterns of the jewish feasts have been around much longer than Darby or the post trib rapture view which you think Paul taught. You are wrong again as usual. Jerry Kelso

 

[BABerean2]

Darby understood and mapped out this view 3 years before the woman in 1830.

You must have been listening to Dr. Tommy Ice or reading some of the nonsense from the "Rapture Ready" website.

Darby's 1829 paper found below is written from the viewpoint of a Historicist, Amillennial.

It is Darby's own words that debunk your statement above.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/PROPHET/02001E.html


.

 

[jerry kelso]

You must have been listening to Dr. Tommy Ice or reading some of the nonsense from the "Rapture Ready" website.

Darby's 1829 paper found below is written from the viewpoint of a Historicist, Amillennial.

It is Darby's own words that debunk your statement above.

http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/darby/PROPHET/02001E.html


.

baberean2,

1. It doesn't matter what Darby said, the fact is that Dr. John Gill in 1748 and Peter Jerihu in 1687 and alluded to by Ephraim the Syrian in A.D. 373 and the Shepard of Hermas 10 years after John the Revelator wrote Revelation. Those are facts.
I don't know who Tommy Ice is.

2. The bible shows the type of rapture and escaping tribulation in different ways.
You believe in escaping the wrath of God of the battle of Armageddon because you believe that the saints will be raptured to the clouds and then to Heaven so they can come right back down to the Battle of Armageddon. That is not scriptural and you can't prove it.
The blessed dead who are the last martyrs seen in heaven is before the 7 vials even begins. Even then you have to build up a straw man to have the living believers to be resurrected with them. Do you understand this or is it that you don't want to admit it?

3. You believe in escaping and I believe in escaping. Yours is an escaping of the battle of Armageddon. Mine is the whole tribulation. Mid tribbers believe the 1st half until the man of sin is revealed to begin his Antichrist kingdom.
Escaping tribulation is scriptural for God's people. For those who teach or make people feel they can be slack in witnessing is not scriptural.
For those who teach or make people feel they can wait and not feel an urgency of accepting Christ is wrong.
The bible says to occupy till he comes and to be faithful. The bible says if we suffer we shall reign.
We always have tribulation but he has overcome and we are over comers by the blood right now and the tribulation saints will in the future.
We could be persecuted right now and many are now in many places persecuted and martyred.
No matter what position one may hold about the future rapture christians have to always keep in mind to be faithful to the end of their lives.
The saints in the past were made a promise but they didn't receive the promise in their lifetime but they didn't relax and let everyone go to hell and they gave their lives for Christ.
Once again you cannot prove your point biblically without using straw men and you can't prove about Darby and the post trib historic amillennialist. Jerry Kelso