A verse that single-handedly destroys the dispensational delusion!
- Thread starter random person
- Start date
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
You don't understand common sense or true reasoning and you will take it over anything else and that is the reason you can only come up with arguing with Paul, not with me.
You don't understand Paul so you can not adequately say that statement in truth. Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
Rom_3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Some people in the Bible who were found righteous may have done their best to keep the commandments, but they were justified by their faith instead of their works.
Paul is not that hard to understand, based on what is plainly written in the text.
.
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. You are skating the issue. The issue is not whether or not he was being justified by the law. No one was justified by the law under the old covenant or new covenant as far the way to be saved.
2. The issue was whether or not he was able to keep the law perfectly and he did for he was blameless.
3. They had to do all the law and commandments in order to be blessed. The law did not justify those in the old covenant because David said he was saved by grace and not of works. But at the same time those that performed the law had to live in them and this was the righteousness of the law. This is what Paul said and meant when he mentioned being blameless.
4. Today the righteousness is of faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and his finished work. We are saved by believing by faith but justification is when Christ accepts our works of obedience which he commands us to do and then puts his stamp of approval on it.
5. The scriptures about Zacharias and Elizabeth are even more clearer and to the point and there is no wiggle room to say they didn't keep all the commandments whether it was for a short time or a long time.
6. So your argument is all muddied up with justification when we are talking about keeping or performing all the commandments at one time blamelessly.
You cannot prove otherwise so you should accept the truth. Jerry kelso
Upvote
0
He might have been thought to be blameless according to the other Pharisees when he held the coats of those who stoned Stephen. However, he was not blameless before God.
Paul learned the difference between being judged right with the law by men and being right before God on the road to Damascus.
Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Some of the things Paul said were hard to understand unless viewed in the proper context. This is one of those cases. A person can be viewed as blameless by other men's opinion of the law, but not be right before God.
You cannot persecute the Son of God and be blameless before God.
A similar thing happened on the day Jesus was crucified. The Pharisees asked that the legs be broken so it would not interfere with their Sabbath observance.
.
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. No argument about whether he was pleasing God with killing christians for he was not a new covenant christian.
2. We are talking about whether or not he was keeping the law perfectly. He thought he was doing God's service and did it ignorantly.
3. Phillipians 3:6 is in harmony with Romans 10:5; the righteousness of the law is those that do them shall live in them.
4. If Paul really thought he was not doing the law by killing christians he would not have done it because that is how zealous he was.
He did it ignorantly and so Deuteronomy 18:2-022 must have been his reason.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22; But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Verse 21; And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
Verse 22; When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hathe spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
If this is the reasoning he would have been doing all the commandments including this one.
5. At the same time the question was whether or not a jew could ever live the whole law at one time and be blameless in that sense.
6. God would have never given a law that he would not given the ability to keep because they had to keep it for them to be blessed and not cursed.
7. There are arguments that can stem from this and you can disqualify Paul for ignorantly persecuting christians for anyone after the cross performing the Mosaic law for salvation wasn't performing the new covenant, you can't punch a hole through the fact that
8. Zacharias and Elizabeth were two individuals that plainly says the lived the law blamelessly and they were under the age of the Mosaic law.
9. Christ was the only person to perform the law perfectly for all his life not the only one to ever live it perfectly at all at sometime in their life. When we say the Mosaic law we are talking about all 613 laws of the Mosaic law.
10. Because people could not keep the law consistently and because of it's weaknesses it had to be done away with and we are not under the specific laws and judgements and blessing and cursing system that Israel was under. Though the law was holy and good, these things were the reason the law was a yoke of bondage that Peter stated in Acts 15:10.
11. So the point in consideration about whether the 613 laws of Moses could be kept at one time blamelessly and perfectly is true and is a fact of scripture. Those that did them shall live in them. Shall "live in them" is more of an implication that the whole law could be kept at one time and perfectly.
12. Because the law of sin and death took advantage of the law of Moses that was holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man and made them sin is the implication that the law could not be kept consistently.
13. Jesus kept it consistently and showed it was possible if one lived perfectly to God and Jesus had to do that to be the perfect spotless lamb. So Jesus was the only one to live the law consistently throughout his whole life and never sinned.
14. Concerning the pharisees breaking his legs was also prophesied that it would happen.
14. Zacharias and Elizabeth who lived perfectly at least for a period of time and blamelessly without sin.
15. If you don't believe this about Zacharias and Elizabeth then you must not believe the scripture. Be fair in what the point is and what is true about the main point. Jerry Kelso
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Maybe I do not sin for a few hours while I am sleeping and not dreaming.
Zacharias did not believe the report of the angel and was struck dumb for a time because he doubted the angel's words from God. He and his wife may have been doing their best to keep the commandments, however they were still made of flesh just like us.
Luk 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.
I would think it was a sin not to believe the words of the angel Gabriel.
Nobody is perfect.
.
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean,
1. You are pitiful and legalistic.
2. Pitiful because you want to poke holes in the word of God.
3. Legalistic because you keep trying to force you false interpretation as being the truth.
4. Verse 6 is before verse 20 and Elizabeth did nothing wrong.
You are wrong in both instances.
5. So you can only be sinless in your sleep and if you are not dreaming.
6. Peter said the flesh has ceased from sin so he wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh.
7. We are to be perfect in love but it doesn't sound like you can be from the way you talk, Mr. Nobody's perfect.
8. Paul told the Thessalonians that he prayed that the very God of peace sanctify them wholly; and that there whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. It may not be a probability but it is a possibility and Paul believe in the prayer of faith to accomplish God's will.
10. So you don't seem to even think it was a possibility for a law keeper to perform the whole law at one time blamelessly or perfectly at anytime in their life. It doesn't seem you think you can ever live sinless for any period of time either under the new covenant and that is even more of a shame. Paul said to abstain from the appearance of evil and yet you obviously don't believe that it can be done for any period of time?
11. Do you believe in the dual nature theory or that you are still a sinner that is just saved by grace? Do you understand the difference between possibilities and probabilities? Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
If you will remember, Paul had to confront and correct Peter in regard to the Galatian believers.
You are correct about me being pitiful. I am a rotten sinner, saved by Grace.
Only Christ was perfect.
.
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. The flesh has ceased from sin so Peter wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh.
2. If you are saved from sin you are not a sinner. You were a sinner that was saved by grace.
You can't be a saint and a sinner at the same time in the context of serving two masters at one time. At least not according to scripture.
3. So you are missing the point of possibility and probability.
4. You are still thinking legalistically with the law of Moses mentality.
The reason you misconstrue what I say is because you cannot understand what I say because you are so busy trying to poke holes in what I say that agrees with the scripture and that is why you miss the point altogether. You are wrong again. Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Gal_2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal_2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
If any man claims that he no longer sins, talk to his wife and you will find out he has just broken the 9th commandment...
.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. How long will you stay ignorant in understanding?
2. I don't disagree with whether or not Paul rebuked Peter and being hypocritical which was not walking to the truth.
3. I wouldn't say that a person will not commit a sin in his lifetime after they become a christian.
4. The point to begin with was whether or not one could live the whole Mosaic law at one time blamelessly and the scriptures point it out that it was possible and it happened. I didn't say it happened during their whole life like Christ who never sinned at all in his whole life.
5. Under the Mosaic law it was harder to stay consistent across the board because of the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good that could not help them perform it and the result was living in sin.
6. The bible says the law of Moses which was the old covenant had weaknesses and that the new covenant which is Christ death and resurrection was built on better promises.
This was not and is not because the law wasn't holy and good but Christ can give power to perform the commandment and the law and Christ has given the full measure of the Holy Spirit to be with us and not have interference with the law of sin and death to make us live into self effort.
7. God has done his best to give us everything for our advantage to live free from sin and overcome the enemy.
8. We can still sin just as much as the old covenant believers because we have freewill choice and we still are in a fight of the spirit versus the flesh not because Christ didn't give us every advantage through the new covenant.
9. Technically, if we lived in the Spirit every second of our life we could live sinless because the power of God is that strong. If we can overcome and abstain from sin for one second, one hour, one day, one year, etc. can be done all the time.
10. At the same time, John said all unrighteousness is sin and that covers alot of ground and because we have freewill choice and the fight of the flesh against the spirit we can tend and most likely will sin.
11. The point is not whether one can sin or not for the possibility is always there and we are not perfect in our knowledge and miss the mark. We have to have a greater mindset about being able to overcome sin instead of being defeated with "I can't help but sin" syndrome. This is why to understand Romans 7 in it's proper context is important for those christians who have a defeated attitude because they "can't help but sin" or that they are "only human thinking" to the extreme.
12. The bottom line is that the jews were able to do the rules of the whole law at one time but no one ever did it across the span of their lifetime like Christ.
You were saying that no one could ever keep the whole law at all and this was not true.
13. Today, we have greater promises and we are to be perfect in love and this is possible through the power of Christ.
14. John said if we are born of God doth not commit sin and James said if we sin we have an advocate with the father. There is a possibility not to sin but there is a condition to make sure that you don't sin.
15. I agree with the fact that we will not always be perfect about every single thing we do until we have a resurrected body, then we will have no potential to sin.
16. A conscience of sin will breed giving into sin. A conscience of overcoming sin will breed not giving into sin.
17. Defeated mindset or Victorious mindset? Does a person want to sin more or less? The more you sin the less you are being like God.
If I sin I admit I sin but if I don't sin I don't say I sin because I can't help but sin because I'm human and I sin everyday etc. That is legalistic thinking.
18. If one wants to prove how much a christian can save read Solomon and how vain man is without God.
19. Sinless perfection is not about never being able to sin which some teach but it is about the power of God in one's life so much that the struggle against sin is not a dominant thing. If one has an extreme belief of can't help but sin because you are human says subconsciously Satan has more power to keep you in sin than God has to keep you from sin.
20. So performing the code of ethics of the Mosaic law was possible and did happen scripturally. Abstaining from all appearance from evil is possible and Paul proved that he did everything to mortify the members of his body otherwise he could become a reprobate and he gloried in the cross. Paul never had a mindset of he couldn't help but sin after he became a christian and had received his revelations and went through his trials and sufferings.
21. Being sinless today and being perfect in love is possible and should be manifested more than a christian who believes in sinning more because this is why most believe they are just as good and better than believers.
Once again you are confused about what the true point is. Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
Jerry,
I agree with most of your last post, up to the statement above.
As long as we are alive there will always be a battle between the Spirit and the Flesh.
Like I said before, if a man claims to be without sin, just talk to his wife.
That does not mean it is OK to live constantly in unrepentant sin, without regard for what we know is good and right.
.
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. If you don't believe you can live sinless then you don't believe in overcoming by the power of God.
2. There is always a battle between the Spirit and the flesh but that doesn't mean the flesh has to win.
3. Paul said in Galatians if we walk in the spirit we won't fulfill the things of the flesh.
4. Talk to their wife? There are some that might believe he doesn't sin. There are people that claim that they have never had an argument in their marriage and have been married 50 years. Some say that is impossible? Possibility or probability?
5. Just because you don't see it or it may not be true in your life doesn't mean it is not possible.
6. You say there will always be a battle between the flesh and the spirit and there will be. At the same time Peter said the flesh has ceased from sin so we wouldn't fulfill the things of the flesh.
7. I am not saying you are not going to miss the mark ever and that is not the point. The point is to understand the better promises of the new covenant and take advantage of them to help overcome and not be bogged down in defeat in the battle all the time.
8. Your perception is that because the Spirit and the flesh war we can not live free from sin.
9. If you are overcoming and abstaining from evil you are sinless whether it is for 1 second, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day, 1 year etc.
10. Do you believe that you can't help but sin everyday? If a christian can't live sinless for one day they need some serious help!
11. Paul said he lived blameless in front of his flock. If he was blameless he was sinless. I am not going to admit I sin if I know I am not sinning. If I sin I admit I sin and ask for forgiveness and go on.
12. So tell me do you believe you are going to sin whether you like it or not everyday? Do you think you are going to sin if you abstain from the very appearance of evil? Do you think you are going to fulfill the things of the flesh if you walk in the Spirit?
13. It is not about super christians but some people live closer to God than others because they cultivate their relationship and are in closer communion with God. This doesn't make them anymore superior to one who doesn't commune with God but still loves him and most of them people would never go around talking about how sinless they might be. They stay focused on God because they know how lost and weak they are without God.
14. It is hard pressed to find where Paul sinned after his revelations and when he said he gloried in his cross. There are a couple places people use but they misunderstand the passages.
15. It is not about being perfect at never sinning because then you get into the law mentality. It is about overcoming sin and not having such a conscience of sin that you sin more than not.
16. I already said a christian can sin and most likely will and for the most part do. Does that mean he sins all the time? I just mentioned we can live sinless and didn't put a length of time on it. We sin because we sin willingly or ignorantly and we don't sin either willingly or ignorantly. We either lean to the over coming power of God or we don't. Which do you choose? Jerry kelso
Upvote
0
Jerry,
Are you married?
If you a
Jerry,
Are you married?
If you are, have your wife write a few lines here about how you never sin anymore.
.
Are you married?
If you a
Jerry,
Are you married?
If you are, have your wife write a few lines here about how you never sin anymore.
.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. I never said I never sin anymore. I never said my wife would ever say I am perfect every single moment we have been married. She has thought that I thought I hung the moon at times.
I said if I do sin I ask for forgiveness and go on.
You are still missing the point of the actual issue and still thinking with a law mentality.
2. Obviously you believe you sin. Do you believe you can't help but sin everyday? If so what scripture do you base that on?
3. The original discussion was about whether or not it was possible for any jew to live the Mosaic law completely of the 613 laws at one time blamelessly for some period of time whether brief or long. The scriptures say yes.
4. It is funny how christians want to prove how much more you can sin than you can overcome and live free from sin because they think it will show pride. Who said you had to go around telling people how perfect you are because that is not the point. The point is to encourage people to live in the power of God and not the weakness of the flesh.
5. I worked with people who said they never could sin because of 1 John 3:8-9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin. If this is literal without a condition then how could we have an advocate with the father and James and John would contradict each other. We know this cannot be. The condition would be abiding and remaining in Christ and not practicing sin. If we are constantly sinning we are not an example of Christ but of the father of lies. At least it is a bad witness and a bad perception of the power of Christ.
6. So why don't you answer my questions, do you believe you can't help but sin everyday?
7. Do you believe that you can't help but sin just because you are human attitude? Do you not believe that you can live sinless for any amount of time and if so how much? Answer these 3 questions to have an honest dialogue. Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
Jerry,
In section 1 you agreed with me that we all still struggle with sin.
There were those in the scripture that did their best to keep the Sinai covenant. However, it is an impossible task for those made of flesh, except for Christ.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
This does not mean that we have a license to sin.
We are justified by Grace through Christ, who has paid our sin debt.
.
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. Do you just naturally like to skate the issue and not answer the direct questions?
You still don't get the point.
2. When I say we struggle with sin is because the struggle is the battle.
3. Sometimes we may have more difficulty overcoming some battles than others.
4. The struggle with sin is to be over with concerning struggling to the point that we are always being overcome with sin consistently. More christians have more of a conscience of sin than overcoming with Christ.
4. Paul said that he died to sin once as Christ died. Most people believe you have to backslide 2 steps and struggle around in sin for a little while and then realize they need God to help them overcome.
5. Are you saying I said we still struggle with sin in section 1? Where? You think if you sin every once in a while that you are still chronically struggling with sin?
6. Why don't you just answer directly whether or not if you believe that you can't help but sin everyday?
7. You make out like you are answering my questions and you are not because you don't understand the point in the first place.
8. Any doctrine that teaches that we sin can't help but sin more than overcome with God.
It is impossible for man to keep commandments in self effort except for Christ is basically what you are saying.
9. The truth is that everyone had the ability to keep the commandments with Christ in the old covenant and they did.
10. Do you think all the saints kept the commandments just be self effort all the time? The jews performing the law of those commandments of 613 laws etc. was done away with because of the fact that they could not be kept on a consistent basis not because they could never be done at all at one time.
11. Having a license to sin has nothing to do struggling with sin. If you have a license to sin you are willfully sinning not trying to fight it. Those who struggle with sin more should be fighting the fight of faith and not trying to prove how weak they are or are self effort.
12. I have said before all of us no matter how close we are in our relationship with God if we are not living by faith and are ignorant of Satan's devices we will fail more than overcome.
So do you believe that you are going to sin everyday? Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
Jerry,
If the statement above was correct, it would mean men could save themselves.
That statement is in direct conflict with the words of Paul found below.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Nobody is justified by law keeping.
Nobody but Christ has ever kept the Old covenant.
He had to come to fulfill it, since no one else could fulfill it.
.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
baberean2,
1. You really don't comprehend too well.
2. KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS didn't save a person under the old covenant and even the BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS couldn't save a person.
3. We are not saved or justified by law keeping.
4. All I said is that there were people in the old covenant that at one time or another kept the whole law perfectly. You said if that was true then men could save themselves. You are doing nothing but contradicting yourself.
5. Technically, salvation was not complete for the old covenant believer until Christ died and his blood washed away their sin AT THE CROSS and this is why they and believers of the new covenant were MADE PERFECT TOGETHER.
6. Either you really lack comprehension of what you are saying or you just want to keep accusing me of something that is not true.
7. READ THIS AND UNDERSTAND. IF A PERSON KEPT THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE OLD COVENANT AND IT DIDN'T SAVE THEM ANYWAY THEN YOU HAVE NO BASIS OF ACCUSING ME BY YOUR UNBELIEVABLE, ILLOGICAL REASONING THAT KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS MEANS THAT ALL MEN WOULD BE JUSTIFIED. YOUR POST IS A WRITING CONTRADICTION.
Are you afraid to answer my simple question? Do you believe you can't help but sin each day? Quit evading the question and answer it. Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
Similar threads
