a thought to ponder

[mae300]

I thought Theory was a Theory because it could not be proven as fact correct?...However many people treat Evolution as a fact and not a theory...just an observation.

 

[TheBear]

I thought Theory was a Theory because it could not be proven as fact correct?...However many people treat Evolution as a fact and not a theory...just an observation.

Have a look at what scientific theory means.

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm

 

[Pete Harcoff]

I thought Theory was a Theory because it could not be proven as fact correct?...However many people treat Evolution as a fact and not a theory...just an observation.

Not exactly. Theories in science are actually extremely well supported explanations for certain phenomenon in nature. In the case of evolution it is a well supported by evidence from direct observation (i.e. observing evolutionary mechanisms in modern populations) and with evidence that suggests it has occured throughout the history of life on Earth (mainly from genetic and fossil evidence).

It's generally treated as a fact because it is so well supported, but like any theory in science, it is subject to falsification if evidence arises that falsifies it. So far, that hasn't happened.

 

[dad]

You said people get arrested these days for being Christian, and the best example you can provide is that of a man getting arrested 2000 years ago for treason ?

Look at what is illegal in schools. Bibles, The Lord's prayer I hear some places, tracts, teaching about Jesus as creator, etc. Even some disipline and godly teachings that happen at homes. The stated reasons people get arrested may not say, 'for being christian' but that is in effect what a lot of it is.

it is 'persecution''

Great, you admit it.

I am sure some of their aims may have been valid but they were not simply arrested for being Christian.

Says you. A Christian come with certain actions, like preaching the gospel. When laws exist that make this impossible, they are disobeyed. Like the early apostles who were beaten, and warned not to preach any more.


Acts 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them, 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men

..
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. 42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

Best of luck with all that.

No luck needed.

 

[Byelotsar]

Look at what is illegal in schools. Bibles, The Lord's prayer I hear some places, tracts, teaching about Jesus as creator, etc. Even some disipline and godly teachings that happen at homes. The stated reasons people get arrested may not say, 'for being christian' but that is in effect what a lot of it is.

Yeah, that's a real tragedy, what with the whole "following the Constitution" and stuff. I don't see Mohammad being taught to children as the Lord's Prophet. I don't see the Eightfold Path being taught as the way to enlightenment. In fact, I don't see any religions being espoused at all! Christianity might be the One Religion, but as long as all these other religions aren't being espoused, this isn't even close to persecution.

As for the stuff about "discipline and godly teachings that happen at homes" bit, I'd have to see evidence of a gov't raid on somebody's house just because they were Christian. I seriously doubt anything like that has happened in any Western nation. We just don't outlaw private religious practice.

 

[Cassandra]

I'd like to point out to any lurkers out there that the Theory of Evolution is not, or has it ever been, an Origins theory.

 

[dad]

Oh common! Bibles are not ILLEGAL in our schools!! There are thousands of Christian club on campus both at the high school and college level.

dad, how do you explain that? I want an answer!!

A resident assistant in a dormitory at the University of Wisconsin in Eau Claire has been told that he cannot hold informal Bible study sessions in the dorm because it would amount to an illegal endorsement of religion by a state employee, ..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174719,00.html


State sponsored prayer in the public schools, whether in the classroom or at graduation ceremonies, violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and offends the consciences of those would not choose to participate in the prayers.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/williams.htm

It is only a band of silver, imprinted with a Bible verse, worn by a schoolgirl.
But the decision by one of the country's top state schools to ban American-style 'purity rings' -

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1800271,00.html

Then there is the case of the Montgomery County Public Schools’ refusal to distribute take-home flyers to parents announcing after-school meetings of Child Evangelism Fellowship “because the group is evangelical and its predominate objective is proselytization.” When challenged in federal court by Christian Legal Society attorneys, the Maryland school system admitted it routinely distributed flyers for other student groups, including those with religious purposes.

http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=5750&catID=2&forID=&searchfield=&usrID=&

Spanking is in the news again, and parents have every reason to be concerned that anti-spanking fanatics will not rest until corporal punishment is banned throughout society. In recent weeks, the spanking issue has gained public attention from Brookline, Massachusetts to Great Britain and several points in between. A concerted effort by self-designated child experts is directed at subverting parental rights and parental authority by eliminating spanking and replacing discipline with a relationship of negotiation between parent and child.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20040623/6115.htm

The Red Cross has banned Christmas nativity decorations from its UK charity shops in case they offend customers of other faiths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2597481.stm

Kindergartners at a public school in Oregon were invited to bring cards to a Christmas party, but a teacher barred one student from distributing his holiday greeting because it mentioned Jesus Christ, prompting a lawsuit filed yesterday.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37029

The extent of the antichristian spirit that prevades many countries has not reached total proportions yet. They allow a little extra curricular activity. But do not pretend it is not antichrist at heart, and getting more so, deary. Soon the bible will be illegal. All men will have to get the mark of the beast by force of law. People like telephone will likely say something like.' 'Oh it isn't the mark of the beast we need this for security, and ..etc'

 

[JohnR7]

If you are a teacher - why do you teach stuff without knowing jack about it?

Where is your evidence that she does not know "jack about it"? If your going to accuse someone of something, then you need to produce the evidence. Although a personal attack of this sort is a violation of the rules.

 

[mae300]

There were many theories that have been disproved among the centuries...ie...the earth being flat...it took time to actually show that wasn't the case all I am saying is that evolution is still a theory...even some evolutionists believe in different aspects of evolution...different theories...different ideas...

 

[pantsman52]

There were many theories that have been disproved among the centuries...ie...the earth being flat...it took time to actually show that wasn't the case all I am saying is that evolution is still a theory...even some evolutionists believe in different aspects of evolution...different theories...different ideas...

Please, PLEASE go read up on what the SCIENTIFIC defenition of a theory is. This is getting so very old.

 

[pantsman52]

Where is your evidence that she does not know "jack about it"? If your going to accuse someone of something, then you need to produce the evidence. Although a personal attack of this sort is a violation of the rules.

She asked the tried and true "Why are there still monkeys" question and didn't know what a scientific theory was.

 

[Nooj]

all I am saying is that evolution is still a theory

And that's what it will ever be.

Facts are repeatedly confirmed observations.
Hypotheses are a testable statement that collect these facts.
Theories are well-supported explanations that bring together the facts, the observations, the data and laws.

I drop an apple. It falls to the ground. This experiment has been conducted thousands of times by many different people. It is a FACT.

A hypothesis for this FACT is that there is a force of attraction, called gravity, that is responsible for why the apple fell.

A theory for this HYPOTHESIS combined with FACTS, is that gravity is a universal force that explains a wide range of phenomena seen in the Universe, perhaps using particles of force called gravitons and that interactions between gravitons is what we feel as gravity.

Evolution is a FACT. It is a repeatedly confirmed observation. Just like gravity is a FACT.

But evolution is also a THEORY. Just like gravity is a THEORY.

 

[flicka]

A resident assistant in a dormitory at the University of Wisconsin in Eau Claire has been told that he cannot hold informal Bible study sessions in the dorm because it would amount to an illegal endorsement of religion by a state employee, ..
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174719,00.html


State sponsored prayer in the public schools, whether in the classroom or at graduation ceremonies, violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and offends the consciences of those would not choose to participate in the prayers.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/williams.htm

It is only a band of silver, imprinted with a Bible verse, worn by a schoolgirl.
But the decision by one of the country's top state schools to ban American-style 'purity rings' -

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1800271,00.html

Then there is the case of the Montgomery County Public Schools’ refusal to distribute take-home flyers to parents announcing after-school meetings of Child Evangelism Fellowship “because the group is evangelical and its predominate objective is proselytization.” When challenged in federal court by Christian Legal Society attorneys, the Maryland school system admitted it routinely distributed flyers for other student groups, including those with religious purposes.

http://www.goofigure.com/UserGoofigureDetail.asp?gooID=5750&catID=2&forID=&searchfield=&usrID=&

Spanking is in the news again, and parents have every reason to be concerned that anti-spanking fanatics will not rest until corporal punishment is banned throughout society. In recent weeks, the spanking issue has gained public attention from Brookline, Massachusetts to Great Britain and several points in between. A concerted effort by self-designated child experts is directed at subverting parental rights and parental authority by eliminating spanking and replacing discipline with a relationship of negotiation between parent and child.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20040623/6115.htm

The Red Cross has banned Christmas nativity decorations from its UK charity shops in case they offend customers of other faiths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/2597481.stm

Kindergartners at a public school in Oregon were invited to bring cards to a Christmas party, but a teacher barred one student from distributing his holiday greeting because it mentioned Jesus Christ, prompting a lawsuit filed yesterday.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37029

The extent of the antichristian spirit that prevades many countries has not reached total proportions yet. They allow a little extra curricular activity. But do not pretend it is not antichrist at heart, and getting more so, deary. Soon the bible will be illegal. All men will have to get the mark of the beast by force of law. People like telephone will likely say something like.' 'Oh it isn't the mark of the beast we need this for security, and ..etc'

I don't want to hijack and evo thread so I won't post on this again but I will say this....most of those sources involve cases where there is church/state seperation issues that protect the church as much as they protect the state. They are NOT antichristian.

The purity ring issue is NOT a Christain issue. Purity rings have nothing to do with Christain faith...it's a fad that the school doesn't want to deal with, which is their choice.

Spanking is NOT a christian issue either. Why is this even being brought up?

Feeling persecuted is often the result of insecutiry.

 

[Lucretius]

There were many theories that have been disproved among the centuries...ie...the earth being flat...it took time to actually show that wasn't the case all I am saying is that evolution is still a theory...even some evolutionists believe in different aspects of evolution...different theories...different ideas...

Laymen's Look at Science

Hypothesis -> Theory -> Law -> Fact

Scientists Look at Science

Fact -> Hypothesis -> Law -> Theory

In order from least to most important. Laymen tend to think facts are most important, and also that theories can somehow magically evolve into laws. Both of these are wrong. Facts are least important to science because they are just simply observations — it's the interpretation of the observations, and the explanatory power that can be derived from the observations, that is most important — and that is what a theory does: joins together a large body of facts and laws in order to explain a given phenomenon.

 

[dad]

....most of those sources involve cases where there is church/state seperation issues that protect the church as much as they protect the state. They are NOT antichristian.

Of course they are. They are against Christ. They tossed Him out, They tossed out crosses, prayer, bible, bible classes, and anything else that wreaked of God. They must account for that, and I assure you, they will.

The purity ring issue is NOT a Christain issue. Purity rings have nothing to do with Christain faith...it's a fad that the school doesn't want to deal with, which is their choice.

It shows even one darn verse is not tolerated from the bible in schools.

Spanking is NOT a christian issue either. Why is this even being brought up?

Pr 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Heb 11:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Feeling persecuted is often the result of insecutiry.

I wouldn't know, I don't feel that way. I simply ackowledge the facts.

 

[dad]

Evolution is a FACT. It is a repeatedly confirmed observation. Just like gravity is a FACT.

But evolution is also a THEORY. Just like gravity is a THEORY.

Not evolution from a common ancestor!!!!!! That is the real issue. That is a fact.

 

[Cassandra]

Wait......THERE ARE STILL MONKEYS??!!!??!!!

 

[Valkhorn]

What is wrong with presenting scientific evidence for creationism in the science class?

There isn't any. Science cannot confirm or deny the existence of any god or gods.

How can you miss this, John?

 

[Ryal Kane]

Where is your evidence that she does not know "jack about it"? If your going to accuse someone of something, then you need to produce the evidence. Although a personal attack of this sort is a violation of the rules.

That said, you do have a point. Heatherwayno may be misguided in her perceptions of evolution but making digs at her isn't going to help matters at all. So far her behaviour on the thread has been decent.
There's a very large difference between ignorance and willfull ignorance. Ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of. We all suffer it to some extent in various fields.
However an unwillingness to learn is different and frustrating. Heather asked questions in the OP and was answered. The thread decended into questioning her aptitude for her job and while points made may have been valid thye were not productive or conductive to discussion. ...

Man, now I'M sounding like a school teacher. An English teacher at that. Sorry.

Heather, as I recommended before, pick a single point about evolution that troubles you, start a thread and it can be covered.

 

[lemon_drop]

Why do you, as a teacher and not a minister, tell them that?

I can only speak for myself as a public school teacher. It is perfectly acceptable to tell kids what different people believe, even when it comes to religion. What we can't do is tell the kids what to believe. In some of the literature textbooks at our school, there are teachings from the Bible, Koran, and Buddhism just to name a few. I realize that science classes are a lot different from those based on literature. However, I see no problem exposing kids to various points of view. For example, one could teach evolution but show that some see evolution from a theistic perspective, others do not. Neither has to be presented as being correct. The listener will decide for herself which is correct. My experience with teens has shown me that they are not as impressionable as one would suspect. If you vilify or keep information from them, they will most likely want to explore it. Those who reject the teaching of ID within science may actually be doing it a favor. Eventually, kids will see the rejection of ID by the status quo and become interested in learning about it.