A response to racism in American Orthodoxy

[gzt]

It's the circle of people involved with this open letter. These "anti-racism" crusaders.

They have knowingly falsely accused people of running these sock accounts before, just to put pressure on them, because they thought these people knew the real identity of the people behind the account and wanted them to give it up. I have seen the FB message exchange with one person - they even threatened serious violence against this person after acknowledging they knew he was not the person running the sock account.

This is just more hearsay and speculation spinning up.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

That would be trivially false.

How do you know? That's the problem with defining what constitutes a "hate" symbol.

If you define it by the objective rhetoric attached to it, what statistical percentage of people who use it have to be connected to racist rhetoric to render the symbol itself racist? Any number you give will be ultimately arbitrary and will drown out all innocent minorities who do not pair it with any rhetoric.

If you define it by the subjective feelings of those who interpret it as a "hate" symbol, you lack any way of enforcing a rule of law because subjective feelings are unverifiable. I may say I am offended by a symbol for any number of reasons--media attention (like the girl in Toronto whose hijab was allegedly cut, except that it never was and the story was made up), personal vendetta against the person who used the symbol, monetary gain in the form of a lawsuit. Even if brain scans came cheap (and they don't), you could never confirm that "racism" was the reason because while there are statistically average places for "hatred" to be represented in the cerebral cortex, we are now far enough ahead of the original Penfield research on such matters to know that brain maps are highly individualized and constantly in flux. And you need to confirm if you're going to pursue judicial action.

This is not to say that bigoted uses of symbols never take place, but it is to say that they are highly a matter of opinion and therefore can never be effectively defined as a crime.

 

[gzt]

I regret ever commenting on this whole issue. One side are nazis the other side is in another ditch. I'm really just here mourning the whole mess. Forgive me for my comments.

That's understandable, but opposition to racism and the TWP folks isn't "partisan", even if one statement is coming from a questionable source - it's common to all Orthodox and people of goodwill.

 

[Platina]

This is just more hearsay and speculation spinning up.

Actually its not, considering that, as I said, I have personally read the Facebook exchange where violence was threatened against an innocent person. No hearsay, no speculation.

And I know the seminarian who is being spoken of here. Nothing I've said is less than fact.

 

[Platina]

Patently absurd.

Supporting Black Lives Matter and inventing a racism problem in the Church is absurd.

 

[gzt]

And I know the seminarian who is being spoken of here. Nothing I've said is less than fact.

Well, yes, I presumed as much, given that that's the only source of the flow of information about this. Who else would know who this is?

 

[Platina]

Other people who know him.

 

[FireDragon76]

No offense, my stumbling upon a parish that supports white supremacy almost kept me from the faith. I am thankful I had the balance of another parish. Otherwise I would have been Catholic today.

My impression was that because Orthodoxy was small and non-maistream in the US, it attracted alot of "colorful" characters. I think that's particularly a danger in the American South, where many Protestant churches are trying to actively change their attitudes on race. There could be the impression that Orthodoxy represents a safe space for negative attitudes on race because of the churches having a reputation for cultural isolation.

 

[gzt]

My impression was that because Orthodoxy was small and non-maistream in the US, it attracted alot of "colorful" characters. I think that's particularly a danger in the American South, where many Protestant churches are trying to actively change their attitudes on race. There could be the impression that Orthodoxy represents a safe space for negative attitudes on race because of the churches having a reputation for cultural isolation.

Yes, I think this is one of the reasons we need to be vigilant on this front and speak out on and articulate how this is unacceptable in the Church.

 

[gzt]

Other people who know him.

Well, yes, but here's my point: in most places the discussion on this article is focused on the TWP aspect. Before you confirmed that the one line really does refer to a seminarian who is indeed under investigation, we weren't talking about that and probably would not have. The seminary faculty - of whatever seminary this is - investigating are bound both by their academic and spiritual roles not to discuss it and, forgive me for presuming because I'm not up on the discourse elsewhere, I haven't seen opponents of this student openly discussing what's going on, which means the source of all the noise is ultimately the student himself. Frankly, the seminary officials are serious and sober folks so a public campaign is unnecessary if the fellow is innocent, by the way, so what's the point? One doesn't want to inflict the "Streisand Effect" on your friend. The other problem is that this noise, being generated purely by the student in question, can't really be paid attention to, as the same thing would be coming out if he were on the alt-right or if he were not, and his friends only have what he says - whether or not it's an accurate representation of the truth - the additional voices are not additional testimony on the issue. Suffice it to say, I'm not interested in this either way apart from any findings from the seminary itself and think this kind of discussion only strews more refuse about.

 

[ArmyMatt]

by the by, the seminarian in question issued an apology and affirmed that racism is indeed heretical, and that all races are welcome in the Church and all races deserve equal protection under the law.

he said it was certain comments he made and his profile pic, which was the Confederate flag, were why folks thought he was a white supremacist. there is still zero evidence that he also posts under a different account.

FYI.

 

[gzt]

Obsession with neo-Confederacy isn't really the sort of thing people should mix themselves up with.

 

[ArmyMatt]

clearly wasn't obsession with neo anything. it was a guy who had pride in his Southern heritage and got heated. he apologized for scandaling anyone and asked forgiveness. if he was obsessed, he would not have taken it down and apologized for it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

he apologized for scandaling anyone and asked forgiveness.

Sounds good to me. That's what we do, and God forgives and we forgive, and we move on. No point to continue scandal ...

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sounds good to me. That's what we do, and God forgives and we forgive, and we move on. No point to continue scandal ...

amen

 

[prodromos]

Obsession with neo-Confederacy isn't really the sort of thing people should mix themselves up with.

I could mention somebody else's seeming obsession, but I won't .

 

[gzt]

Anyway, I hope that's what it was and that he's repented of it. As I said before, I'm not interested in the court of public opinion.

 

[gzt]

I could mention somebody else's seeming obsession, but I won't .

My obsession with not understanding your cryptic remarks, yes.

 

[Platina]

by the by, the seminarian in question issued an apology and affirmed that racism is indeed heretical, and that all races are welcome in the Church and all races deserve equal protection under the law.

he said it was certain comments he made and his profile pic, which was the Confederate flag, were why folks thought he was a white supremacist. there is still zero evidence that he also posts under a different account.

FYI.

Hopefully that will be the end of it, but I can't say I have any faith in his accusers to do the right thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hopefully that will be the end of it, but I can't say I have any faith in his accusers to do the right thing.

I hope so, but I doubt it as well. I read what one of the signers demanded the seminarian do for him to leave the seminarian alone, and is was pretty ridiculous.