A Question on Faith

[AmericanCatholic]

If faith is both necessary and sufficient for salvation, for what purpose does God "test" people?

 

[Yarddog]

If faith is both necessary and sufficient for salvation, for what purpose does God "test" people?

To build faith.

 

[Stryder06]

If faith is both necessary and sufficient for salvation, for what purpose does God "test" people?

To separate wheat from the chaff

 

[AmericanCatholic]

To separate wheat from the chaff

If so, then one's good acts ('acts of faith') in response to God's "tests" are a necessary component of faith, and therefore good acts are also a necessary but not necessarily sufficient part of salvation.

 

[squint]

If faith is both necessary and sufficient for salvation, for what purpose does God "test" people?

Paul tells us that 'faith' actually 'works' through LOVE.

John also tells us that we can 'claim' we love God, but if we don't love our brothers we are LIARS. So claiming 'faith toward God' is quite irrelevant to loving our brothers.

The test? To see if we have 'love' present and in action to our brothers and our enemies. Without the ACTION portion, LOVE is void and therefore FAITH is void and LIES DEAD.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Paul tells us that 'faith' actually 'works' through LOVE.

John also tells us that we can 'claim' we love God, but if we don't love our brothers we are LIARS. So claiming 'faith toward God' is quite irrelevant to loving our brothers.

The test? To see if we have 'love' present and in action to our brothers and our enemies. Without the ACTION portion, LOVE is void and therefore FAITH is void and LIES DEAD.

Put simply, faith is necessary for salvation. Good acts are necessary for faith. Therefore, good acts are necessary for salvation.

 

[squint]

To separate wheat from the chaff

And this example of so called faith is a working of 'faith' that is used to condemn and to sentence to ETERNAL DEATH.

This kind of 'faith' resembles LOVE to our brothers and our enemies not ONE WHIT. It is self serving, self vested and used to CONDEMN other people. The very people that GOD BRINGS to 'test' the VALIDITY of LOVE.

That kind of 'faith formula' looks like this=

LOVE = the OPEN CONDEMNATION UNTO POTENTIAL OF ETERNAL DEATH of others.

Now, not too many like to TRUTHFULLY handle this openly obvious conclusion, but it IS a most logical view of what that type of 'faith' is, which formula I REJECT as being ANYTHING remotely similar to LOVE.

 

[squint]

Put simply, faith is necessary for salvation. Good acts are necessary for faith. Therefore, good acts are necessary for salvation.

I am very reluctant to say 'what constitutes' LOVE having actually transpired in any person. I would even go so far as to CUT MY FELLOW MAN the 'benefit of the doubt' and say,

YES, probably ALL PEOPLE have loved some way at some time.

So, your task, should you decide to USE THE MEASURE of 'actions of LOVE' must therefore also define what that is and consists of.

I might find that action to be quite penetrating and existing, even if it seems to 'us' to be HARD TO FIND.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Hentenza]

If so, then one's good acts ('acts of faith') in response to God's "tests" are a necessary component of faith, and therefore good acts are also a necessary but not necessarily sufficient part of salvation.

And yet:

Romans 4:4-5
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Do we oblige God with our works?

 

[MrPolo]

Put simply, faith is necessary for salvation. Good acts are necessary for faith. Therefore, good acts are necessary for salvation.

That's correct. As James defined the apostolic understanding of faith, it is that which is as inseparable from works as the body is to the soul. (James 2:26)

 

[Stryder06]

If so, then one's good acts ('acts of faith') in response to God's "tests" are a necessary component of faith, and therefore good acts are also a necessary but not necessarily sufficient part of salvation.

Correct. As the saying goes, there is a difference between working to be saved and working because you are saved. Christ Himself did many good works, and as such so did His disciples. Their works however were not done in a vain attempt to obtain salvation for themselves, but rather, they were done because of the love of Christ that was in them.

 

[Stryder06]

And this example of so called faith is a working of 'faith' that is used to condemn and to sentence to ETERNAL DEATH.

This kind of 'faith' resembles LOVE to our brothers and our enemies not ONE WHIT. It is self serving, self vested and used to CONDEMN other people. The very people that GOD BRINGS to 'test' the VALIDITY of LOVE.

That kind of 'faith formula' looks like this=

LOVE = the OPEN CONDEMNATION UNTO POTENTIAL OF ETERNAL DEATH of others.

Now, not too many like to TRUTHFULLY handle this openly obvious conclusion, but it IS a most logical view of what that type of 'faith' is, which formula I REJECT as being ANYTHING remotely similar to LOVE.

Wow, your legs must be real strong with all the jumping your doing to get to these conclusions.

This statement reflects your own feelings and in no wise is relevant to my statement that you quoted.

 

[squint]

Wow, your legs must be real strong with all the jumping your doing to get to these conclusions.

This statement reflects your own feelings and in no wise is relevant to my statement that you quoted.

You can make that claim, but the use of your so called FAITH does turn to the facts shown and you cannot show otherwise.

In fact you openly display that as your results.

Paul provided us the FACT of 'how faith works"

FAITH IS----> LOVE in ACTION.

So, what have you done with LOVE?

You turn LOVE in action into this formula:

LOVE = PERSONAL OBEDIENCE

Where there is no PERSONAL OBEDIENCE there is instant CONDEMNATION and the potential of ETERNAL DEATH.

Therefore your formula is openly obvious:

LOVE = the potential of instant condemnation and the potential of eternal death

But YOU have also devised a formula to 'get you out of the mess'

Love then is for YOU = Personal Obedience, admitted failure, repentence, reinstatement into Personal Obedience.

But UNTO OTHER people who do not subscribe to your 'PERSONAL OBEDIENCE' format there is NO SOLUTION. Love to THEM in your formula CAN ONLY RESULT IN THIS as previously stated:

LOVE = the potential of condemnation REALIZED by not subjecting to your PERSONAL OBEDIENCE FORMULA and then the POTENTIAL OF ETERNAL DEATH.

In your hand then by the process of simple mathematical formulation as it pertains to other people outside your PERSONAL OBEDIENCE format is this:

LOVE = CONDEMNATION and the POTENTIAL OF ETERNAL DEATH.

You can deny the simplicity of these facts, but they ARE your own stated facts.

enjoy!

squint

 

[AmericanCatholic]

And yet:

Romans 4:4-5
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 11:6
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Do we oblige God with our works?

"And yet" implies a contradiction that ought not to exist in the nature of a perfect system created by a perfect God. If it is "by grace", and not by works, then it cannot be by faith, because we have already established that faith requires good works. This creates a second problem: if it is "by grace", then anyone who seeks faith as means of salvation is no different than those who only seek works as a means of salvation. It is for their own purposes rather than "[obliging] God".

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Correct. As the saying goes, there is a difference between working to be saved and working because you are saved. Christ Himself did many good works, and as such so did His disciples. Their works however were not done in a vain attempt to obtain salvation for themselves, but rather, they were done because of the love of Christ that was in them.

Is there a parallel difference between "believing to be saved and believing because you are saved"?

Is it possible for one to believe out of selflessness?

 

[Hentenza]

"And yet" implies a contradiction that ought not to exist in the nature of a perfect system created by a perfect God.

It is a perfect "system'. God has all wisdom.

If it is "by grace", and not by works, then it cannot be by faith, because we have already established that faith requires good works.

What kind of faith? Is works required for faith or is works a result of faith?

This creates a second problem: if it is "by grace", then anyone who seeks faith as means of salvation is no different than those who only seek works as a means of salvation. It is for their own purposes rather than "[obliging] God".

Can anyone work for grace? Is grace of man or of God?

 

[E.C.]

If faith is both necessary and sufficient for salvation, for what purpose does God "test" people?

To be sure that one's faith is solid and to spiritually mature.

 

[Stryder06]

Is there a parallel difference between "believing to be saved and believing because you are saved"?

Is it possible for one to believe out of selflessness?

I think it starts off one way and leads to the other. But of course that depends on where God finds you. Some people may indeed believe out of fear initially, I mean we're only human. I don't think it bothers God that people may come to him initially because they don't want to burn, or because they are uncertain of what will happen to them after death.

Of course I don't think anyone can remain a Christian with fear as their driving factor.

And as far as believing because of selfish reasons, well of course that is possible, but the end result won't be what the individual desires. Judas was greedy and stayed with Christ out of selfish ambitions. The rich young ruler believed, but selfishness keep him from following after Christ.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Put simply, faith is necessary for salvation.

yes

Good acts are necessary for faith.

no

Therefore, good acts are necessary for salvation.

no

 

[Stryder06]

You can make that claim, but the use of your so called FAITH does turn to the facts shown and you cannot show otherwise.

If you say so...

In fact you openly display that as your results.

Paul provided us the FACT of 'how faith works"

FAITH IS----> LOVE in ACTION.

So, what have you done with LOVE?

You turn LOVE in action into this formula:

LOVE = PERSONAL OBEDIENCE

Here I was thinking it was Christ that gave us that equation when He said "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Where there is no PERSONAL OBEDIENCE there is instant CONDEMNATION and the potential of ETERNAL DEATH.

Well I don't recall anyone being saved because they are openly and willingly in rebellion against God.

Therefore your formula is openly obvious:

LOVE = the potential of instant condemnation and the potential of eternal death

You know the formula that you say is obvious and my own is foreign to me.

But YOU have also devised a formula to 'get you out of the mess'

Love then is for YOU = Personal Obedience, admitted failure, repentence, reinstatement into Personal Obedience.

You tell me how you can be saved without being repentant

But UNTO OTHER people who do not subscribe to your 'PERSONAL OBEDIENCE' format there is NO SOLUTION. Love to THEM in your formula CAN ONLY RESULT IN THIS as previously stated:

Says who? That "formula" is universal.

LOVE = the potential of condemnation REALIZED by not subjecting to your PERSONAL OBEDIENCE FORMULA and then the POTENTIAL OF ETERNAL DEATH.

Only in the world of Squint.

In your hand then by the process of simple mathematical formulation as it pertains to other people outside your PERSONAL OBEDIENCE format is this:

LOVE = CONDEMNATION and the POTENTIAL OF ETERNAL DEATH.

You can deny the simplicity of these facts, but they ARE your own stated facts.

enjoy!

squint

No these are your own ideas in regards to how you view my denomination. I can't help that. Like it or not Squint, there is a single truth, love does involve rebuke and correction, and I'm fully convicted in that idea. If you don't like that than it's own you, but again, I'm in real good company with these ideas so I think i'll just have to deal with it.