Quid est Veritas?
In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Flippant remarks merely mean that you have no meaningful evidence to present to the contrary. I take this as broad acknowledgement of my position.
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50 People in the Bible Confirmed Archaeologically
- Thread starter joshua 1 9
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I explicitly mentioned the lack of any desert evidence of 2,000,000 people over and over. Do you want me to quote them? It's posts #23, #33, #45 and #83.
Even if we were only talking about Egyptian records, they also recorded huge amounts of information in other ways, such as stone inscriptions.
All my responses are based on what your write. I've even quoted you over and over.
Back to to the Having your Cake fallacy.
Listen, myself and others have asked many times what you are exactly claiming. On one hand, you say you aren't claiming it happened, but then you say it can't be completely excluded, and that "it may have happened". That's like saying that "I'm not claiming that spider man is real, but he can't be completely excluded from current knowledge, and he may after all be real."
We've asked repeatedly for you to be clear, so how about if I make it really easy. Which of these claims do you support?
A. The exodus happened as recorded in the Pentateuch. (You've already said you agree that the Pentatuech story isn't real).
B. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~1.5 million people.
C. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~1.3 million people.
D. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~1.0 million people.
E. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~0.8 million people.
F. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~0.6 million people.
G. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~0.2 million people.
H. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~20,000 people.
I. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~2,000 people.
J. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~200 people.
K. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~20 people.
L. The exodus happened as written, but it was only ~1 person.
MA, MB, MC = same as above, except the miracles like the parting of the sea, burning bush, etc. didn't happen.
DMA, DMB, DMC - Same as M above, except that they didn't go through the desert (and the miracles didn't happen).
PDMA, PDMB, PDMC - same as DM above + the plagues didn't happen.
PhPDMA, PhPDMB, etc - same as PDM above + all the stuff with Pharoah didn't happen (they just snuck out).
Other variations? Go for it - just be explicit. Thanks.
Yes, it does. When one continues to use the "Having your cake" fallacy, and tries to shift the burden of proof, that very much allows any reasonable person to dismiss what they are saying.
Yes, it does. It makes it more likely to be wrong when practically all the experts, who know the evidence, say it is wrong. I've given several examples of the mainstream understanding that Rohl's ideas are not supported. You can give me a bunch of other Egyptologists who support his ideas - or admit that it's most likely wrong.
No, it isn't. The argument from popularity refers to the general populace. It is absolutely reasonable to refer to the views of the consensus or majority of experts, and that's not the fallacy of popularity, and more than stating that we know HIV is likely real because most medical doctors say so.
I would have thought you already knew that. Did you already know that?
If the Exodus happened, you'll have to explain why the story describes the world of the 6th century BC. It lists them going through a bunch of cities that didn't exist until much later than the story is supposedly happening. It's like finding a story about Uncle Sam in the Year 1776, who, after crossing the Potomac, visited the Lincoln memorial, Arlington Cemetery (made in 1866), the Washington monument, and Seattle Washington. You would know that the story was made up no earlier than the late 1800s. The same is true for the Exodus story. http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bibl...kheleifeh-reappraisal-gary-pratico-1985ad.htm
In Christ-
Papias
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Quid est Veritas?
In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Again, stone inscriptions cannot be expected to show such things, which leaves perishable papyrus and the numbers would be much less than the millions in the narrative, for which evidence can be so construed.
Yet you do not follow my arguments at all and merely restate your own.
None of the above. As I said repeatedly, I am saying an Exodus event cannot be excluded completely on current evidence, not that it happened definitively.
Please read my posts.
I've had this type of discussion on historical boards without issue, but somehow people here do not understand the basics of Historical Criticism.
Again not applicable. Please read my posts.
Nope, the popularity fallacy refers within any populace, not just the general populace.
For instance there is a fallacy prevalent amongst the Medical profession that ARDS is due to hypovolaemia, while pulmonologists will tell you its due to the glycocalyx.
Again, a minority view is not immediately excluded and the minority views have been proven correct in the past, so...
Legendary retellings tend to do so. Fantastical Mediaeval histories of Julius Caesar spoke of places that had not yet existed. Balkan and Islamic retellings of Alexander the Great speak of Sofia or Baghdad, again which had not existed.
This is no impediment at all, in fact expected.
...
This is a silly discussion at this point as you are being pointlessly disingenuous. You are not reading what I write at all or ignoring it completely. I am spending my time rewriting what I had already said because you insist on drawing conclusions that I never made and even explicitly repudiated.
I am not going to continue responding to this thread as I am wasting my time. I find it strange that people hold such fixed beliefs, but oh well. To quote CS Lewis: "Faith usually involves a degree of subjective certitude which goes beyond the logical certainty, or even the supposed logical certainty, of the arguments employed...This excess of certitude in a settled assent is not at all uncommon. Most of those who believe in uniformity of nature, Evolution or the Solar System share it." This is what is at play here, a great certitude way in excess of the logical support for it, in my opinion. Regardless...
Good day, sir.
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DogmaHunter
Code Monkey
I can name a few other things that cannot be exluded "completely" on current evidence.
Like the Pyramids being build by, or with the help of, aliens.
The lesson here is that "well, you can't prove that it didn't happen!!!!" is not really an impressive argument.
In fact, it's shifting the burden of proof.
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But what is "much less"? We've asked several times, and you won't say. Even a rough guess? I don't doubt that at some point, a dozen slaves escaped from Egypt. Is that what you are saying?
I laid out about all of the possibilities I could imagine - so what exactly are you imagining if it is "none of the above" that were listed in post #103? You can get rid of all the "Having your Cake" fallacy criticism by simply stating what you are proposing. Otherwise, it's hard to see how anyone would deny that your posts are based on the Having your Cake fallacy.
I do read your posts. When someone refutes your arguments, points out the repeated use of three fallacies by name and description, and supplies support for their arguments, then they are indeed reading your posts - and "Please read my posts." looks like you simply don't have a logical response.
Wrong. The consensus or majority view of experts is relevant information in a discussion, and mentioning it is not fallacious.
If an elite group of people are in a position to know of what they speak, their authority is relevant and should not automatically be discounted. E.g., Is is a legitimate appeal and no fallacy to argue that most physicians believe that a high fat diet is unhealthy, and therefore a high fat diet is unhealthy.
From V. B, here: http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/popular.htmlIf the Exodus happened, you'll have to explain why the story describes the world of the 6th century BC. It lists them going through a bunch of cities that didn't exist until much later than the story is supposedly happening. It's like finding a story about Uncle Sam in the Year 1776, who, after crossing the Potomac, visited the Lincoln memorial, Arlington Cemetery (made in 1866), the Washington monument, and Seattle Washington. You would know that the story was made up no earlier than the late 1800s. The same is true for the Exodus story.http://www.bible.ca/archeology/bibl...kheleifeh-reappraisal-gary-pratico-1985ad.htm
So then maybe we have a lot of scenarios we agree could be the root of the exodus story? For instance, I could imagine a group of 100 slaves escaping under cover of night from Egypt (with no miracles, discussions with Pharaoh, or such), and the story growing over time. It wouldn't contradict the evidence. Yet it's far from what a typical Exodus believer claims. So maybe we do agree?
In Christ-
Papias
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