The gift of Tongues

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

OK... So either you're right and some weird babbling practice was part of the Christian tradition and subsequently lost for millennia before being rediscovered in Azusa Street or I'm right and Paul was saying "Hey guys, keep the Mass intelligible"...

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From probably around the middle of the fourth century it does appear that the Person and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit was quashed, as was our understanding with justification by faith up until the Reformation. Now there were undoubtedly those who spoke in tongues during the centuries, which was evidenced amongst the French Heugonauts of the 17th century and with the Irivingites in England between 1830 up until about 1900; but as Roman Catholicism ruled almost supreme in the West for centuries, anyone who dared place their faith in the Scriptures was quickly impacted by the sword or the stake.

As for the USA, Azusa Street (1906) was pre-dated by Parham's ministry in Topeka Kansas in 1901.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

OK... So either you're right and some weird babbling practice was part of the Christian tradition and subsequently lost for millennia before being rediscovered in Azusa Street or I'm right and Paul was saying "Hey guys, keep the Mass intelligible"...

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Even though Paul provided some important general information regarding the use of tongues and prophecy within the congregational setting, his emphasis in chapter 14 was probably more about 'intelligibility as against un-intelligibility' where the congregation must always understand what is happening (and being said) in their midst.

Paul certainly values being able to pray in the Spirit (tongues), but in the setting of the congregation he would sooner hear even a few words spoken in the local language so that others maybe be edified through instruction, direction and admonition, as against even thousands of words of praise that could be spoken by the many as these words of praise had no real value for the congregation when it came to instruction, direction and admonition.

Biblicist said:

From probably around the middle of the fourth century it does appear that the Person and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit was quashed, as was our understanding with justification by faith up until the Reformation. Now there were undoubtedly those who spoke in tongues during the centuries, which was evidenced amongst the French Heugonauts of the 17th century and with the Irivingites in England between 1830 up until about 1900; but as Roman Catholicism ruled almost supreme in the West for centuries, anyone who dared place their faith in the Scriptures was quickly impacted by the sword or the stake.

As for the USA, Azusa Street (1906) was pre-dated by Parham's ministry in Topeka Kansas in 1901.

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Ah of course, it has to be the Catholic Church's fault... The notion of a Great Apostasy is a myth all too common among Protestants, especially the more fundamentalist ones!

Babbling incoherently is noted by Church fathers into the fourth century, you are correct: Eusebius mentions Montanus babbling incoherently but I don't think it's clear whether this just meant that Eusebius considered the content of Montanus's prophecies to have been incoherent itself while perfectly legible.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

Ah of course, it has to be the Catholic Church's fault... The notion of a Great Apostasy is a myth all too common among Protestants, especially the more fundamentalist ones!

Babbling incoherently is noted by Church fathers into the fourth century, you are correct: Eusebius mentions Montanus babbling incoherently but I don't think it's clear whether this just meant that Eusebius considered the content of Montanus's prophecies to have been incoherent itself while perfectly legible.

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A few minutes after I posted my two replies I noticed your that your faith icon was 'Catholic', but as Rome has apologised for its abuses and killings over the centuries then you should be able to acknowledge Rome's horrid history just as Rome itself has been able to do.

Of course, we also have the Roman Catholic paedophilia scandals that are now being addressed right across the world, where here in Melbourne the Roman Catholic leadership has been undergoing a grilling by our regulatory authorities for the past couple of years regarding their constant deceit regarding how they protected their paedophile priests for years, but thankfully things have now changed as a result of the pressures that they have been placed under.

This means that you will need to understand that the Roman Catholic authorities even in our day and particular here in my part of the world, that they have about as much credibility as a politician or a used car salesman who says "Trust me"!

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

Ah of course, it has to be the Catholic Church's fault... The notion of a Great Apostasy is a myth all too common among Protestants, especially the more fundamentalist ones!

Babbling incoherently is noted by Church fathers into the fourth century, you are correct: Eusebius mentions Montanus babbling incoherently but I don't think it's clear whether this just meant that Eusebius considered the content of Montanus's prophecies to have been incoherent itself while perfectly legible.

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Prof. Anthony Thiselton in his monumental work on First Corinthians has gone into a great amount of detail regarding the early churchmen, where at best, even though some of them support the ongoing use of tongues in the church, most of their writings seem to be fairly ambiguous.

Biblicist said:

This means that you will need to understand that the Roman Catholic authorities even in our day and particular here in my part of the world, that they have about as much credibility as a politician or a used car salesman who says "Trust me"!

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This is senseless unbridled anti-Catholicism... I'll dignify your nonsense with a response though.

The Catholic Church has absolutely sought forgiveness for every evil done in the Church's name. This doesn't mean that my Church is carpet to be walked on. The clerical sexual abuse scandals are absolutely horrendous and clearly need to be expunged from the Church, no one has ever denied this and every cover up requires answering and harsh consequences.

The problem of sexual abuse by clergy first came into public attention during the mid-1980s, when the issue was commonly identified as that of "paedophile priests" - that is, an overwhelmingly Catholic problem. (Though clergy in some other denominations use the title "priest", in common parlance the word usually indicates a Roman Catholic setting.) For most of the past century the media refused to examine sexual abuse by clergy of any denomination but beginning in the early 1980s the volume of reporting grew enormously. One wave of scandals crested in 1992-3 when the clergy abuse problem was presented as a far-reaching crisis threatening the moral foundations of the churches. These concerns subsided by about 1994, partly as a result of public revulsion at blatantly false charges brought against Chicago's Cardinal Bernardin.

This is not to say that sexual abuse has not happened but simply that the stereotype of "paedophile priests" damages good people. The worst stereotypes of paedophile priests, the Geoghan case is extremely egregious, this scandal hyper-intensified the media coverage on the issue. This lead to highly exaggerated figures with SNAP claiming that between 2 and 10% of priests were paedophiles and Linkup claiming that up to 16% were paedophiles, and that there may be as many as 10 million victims in the USA. If anything these figures are scaremongering at the least and expressly anti-catholic rhetorically at the worst. The most accurate estimates (which come from a Chicago committee) suggest that a 2% figure is probably correct. This is not to say that 2% is forgiveable but just that to show that there has been a tendency to exaggerate. Given that out of a given population one would generally find that 5% of the male adult population may have paedophile inclinations, we really have not got an infestation in the Catholic Church.

Lastly, I don't consider sexual abuse scandals to be an essentially "Catholic" problem. There is little evidence to suggest that clergy of any kind are more or less likely to abuse than non-clerical groups who have close contact with children.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

This is senseless unbridled anti-Catholicism... I'll dignify your nonsense with a response though.

The Catholic Church has absolutely sought forgiveness for every evil done in the Church's name. This doesn't mean that my Church is carpet to be walked on. The clerical sexual abuse scandals are absolutely horrendous and clearly need to be expunged from the Church, no one has ever denied this and every cover up requires answering and harsh consequences. . .

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So that we can avoid derailing this particular thread, I am pleased that you have acknowledged, as has Rome, that its early history was not always something to be proud of, where it certainly played a major part (at least in the West) with the demise of the spiritual level of the Western Church as a whole; so we can probably leave it as this.

Biblicist said:

where it certainly played a major part (at least in the West) with the demise of the spiritual level of the Western Church as a whole

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That is something that I've never said, nor will the Church ever say something so blatantly wrong...

I think you're blatantly trying to sneak snide remarks against the Catholic Church into your replies for whatever reason. Why? I haven't attacked your faith and you're a Pentecostal a real johnnie-come-lately...

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

That is something that I've never said, nor will the Church ever say something so blatantly wrong...

I think you're blatantly trying to sneak snide remarks against the Catholic Church into your replies for whatever reason. Why? I haven't attacked your faith and you're a Pentecostal a real johnnie-come-lately...

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Hey, when the various Pentecostal denominations have committed wrong, or where they have propogated strange doctrines then please feel free to criticise us as you see fit, as I regularly do myself regarding some of the very odd practices and beliefs that we have within our circles, which I even did back in my post #130.

I have absolutely no problem with facing the various forms of wickedness that exist in our midst where I am in the midst of a thread that addresses the horrid teachings of the NARzie (New Apostolic Renewal movement) which exists within the Pentecostal movement; where if some of their leading practitioners are not properly challenged, then some of their behaviour will undoubtedly follow the same pathways as did the early abuses that were practised by Rome; in fact, in 2013 one of their prominent US leaders even called for a military overthrow of the current US government.

So if I am prepared to face the worst within our movement, then I really expect others to knuckle down and face up to the horrendous wickedness that has (and may still) exist within their own ranks - so blast away at Pentecost as you so choose and if you wish, I will even provide you with some additional ammunition.

Biblicist said:

Hey, when the various Pentecostal denominations have committed wrong, or where they have propogated strange doctrines then please feel free to criticise us as you see fit, as I regularly do myself regarding some of the very odd practices and beliefs that we have within our circles, which I even did back in my post #130.

I have absolutely no problem with facing the various forms of wickedness that exist in our midst where I am in the midst of a thread that addresses the horrid teachings of the NARzie (New Apostolic Renewal movement) which exists within the Pentecostal movement; where if some of their leading practitioners are not properly challenged, then some of their behaviour will undoubtedly follow the same pathways as did the early abuses that we practised by Rome.

So if I am prepared to face the worst within our movement, then I really expect others to knuckle down and face up to the horrendous wickedness that has (and may still) exist within their own ranks - so blast away at Pentecost as you so choose and if you wish, I will even provide you with some additional ammunition.

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Meh, I take Pentecostalism to be a new religious movement and an offshoot of the various American religious scatterings of the nineteenth and subsequently twentieth century. As someone who views Christian identity in terms of apostolicity all I think about the Pentecostal Church is "What a strange innovation..." If pushed comes to shove, as you've done, all I'd say is that while your religion didn't exist mine was contemplating advanced metaphysics. While yours was still in diaper's one of our priests was developing the Big Bang theory, coochie-coochie-coo.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

Meh, I take Pentecostalism to be a new religious movement and an offshoot of the various American religious scatterings of the nineteenth and subsequently twentieth century. As someone who views Christian identity in terms of apostolicity all I think about the Pentecostal Church is "What a strange innovation..." If pushed comes to shove, as you've done, all I'd say is that while your religion didn't exist mine was contemplating advanced metaphysics. While yours was still in diaper's one of our priests was developing the Big Bang theory, coochie-coochie-coo.

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I certainly agree that Pentecostal theology is at best only little more than a century old, but this was the same argument that Rome charged the Reformers with; where the Reformation is now more than 500 years old. As for Pentecosalism being an offshoot of American Christianity, the various countries went their own way from the beginning, where the majority of Pentecostals now live in the Majority World (Third World) where much of their theology differs to that of the West.

With the chappie who was "developing the Big Bang theory", wasn't that Charles Michael Levine who is a Jew, along with his co-producer Bill Prady, oh well, maybe I've possibly got this one wrong.

Biblicist said:

I certainly agree that Pentecostal theology is at best only little more than a century old, but this was the same argument that Rome charged the Reformers with; where the Reformation is now more than 500 years old.

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It does apply still considering how old Christianity actually is...

Biblicist said:

With the chappie who was "developing the Big Bang theory", wasn't that Charles Michael Levine who is a Jew, along with his co-producer Bill Prady, oh well, maybe I've possibly got this one wrong.

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Georges Lemaitre was the first to conceive of a "big bang" although I don't think he called it that.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

It does apply still considering how old Christianity actually is...

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Of course the various Eastern Orthodox traditions would also claim to be the true reflection of Apostolic Christianity as well. One of the more interesting aspects with Pentecostal (and charismatic) theology has been with both its strong connections with Trinitarian and Pneumatic theologies, which has seen probably all the major historical denominations redifining both how they understand Pneumatology and with how they communicate this understanding. Even the Roman Catholic scholars have made some interesting changes, though I am not all that sure as to how this is being reflected within their primary teaching documents.

Georges Lemaitre was the first to conceive of a "big bang" although I don't think he called it that.

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Umm. . . I was being a bit flippant where my reference was to the TV sitcom, The Big Bang Theory.

Biblicist said:

One of the more interesting aspects with Pentecostal (and charismatic) theology has been with both its strong connections with Trinitarian and Pneumatic theologies, which has seen probably all the major historical denominations redifining both how they understand Pneumatology and with how they communicate this understanding.

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This is true, much of pneumatology has experienced a revival of contemplation. Not the sort Pentecostal spirituality would probably have desired, as in the Catholic Church Pneumatology is heavily connected to Ecclesiology, it's always been.

Also, the reverse of your claim is also true, the Pentecostal church also saw the revival of Modalism which is clearly non-trinitarian.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

Also, the reverse of your claim is also true, the Pentecostal church also saw the revival of Modalism which is clearly non-trinitarian.

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From our earliest days with the onset of the Oneness Pentecosal heresy, then with the Latter-Rain movement (1948), with the excesses of the WOF movement and now with the heresies of the NARzie movement, we have certainly be prone to some very serious diversions where they have heavily impacted the Pentecostal movement in a bad way. In my more sombre moments, I tend to wonder if we will ever be able to recover from the horrid teachings and practices of the NARzie movement, but then again, I am looking at this problem from within a human perspective.

With the various ecumenical discussions on the Trinity and with Pneumatology, the various Oneness Pentecostal denominations are not involved, nor would they be taken seriously by the rest of the church.

Biblicist said:

From our earliest days with the onset of the Oneness Pentecosal heresy, then with the Latter-Rain movement (1948), with the excesses of the WOF movement and now with the heresies of the NARzie movement, we have certainly be prone to some very serious diversions where they have heavily impacted the Pentecostal movement in a bad way. In my more sombre moments, I tend to wonder if we will ever be able to recover from the horrid teachings and practices of the NARzie movement, but then again, I am looking at this problem from within a human perspective.

With the various ecumenical discussions on the Trinity and with Pneumatology, the various Oneness Pentecostal denominations are not involved, nor would they be taken seriously by the rest of the church.

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You are correct that they are not taken seriously outside of their own small networks.

You actually seem rather self-aware as a Pentecostal, not the sort of person I imagine would have said those nasty anti-Catholic things you said before. Curious...

Why is it that I have yet to see a Pentecostal or Charismatic have to the ability to speak in another language such as Greek, French and so on with out learning it,but all claim to have this private language? They are part of the endtime apostasy.

Shane658 said:

Why is it that I have yet to see a Pentecostal or Charismatic have to the ability to speak in another language such as Greek, French and so on with out learning it,but all claim to have this private language? They are part of the endtime apostasy.

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Apostasy is strong language... Some people know French or Italian some don't. Those who do have the spiritual gift of knowing another language as St Paul would have considered it. Don't confuse Glossolalia, "speaking another language" with Xenoglossia "the miracle of Pentacost" wherein people magically began to speak in other known languages not having learned them at all prior.

Aelred of Rievaulx said:

You are correct that they are not taken seriously outside of their own small networks.

You actually seem rather self-aware as a Pentecostal, not the sort of person I imagine would have said those nasty anti-Catholic things you said before. Curious...

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Believe me, even though I will face up to whatever sins, evil and false doctrine that we Pentecostals have and will continue to propogate, I am certainly well versed enough with church history to recognise that Rome has a lot to answer for. I probably should say that about 12 months ago I passed on some information to our State police regarding a paedophile that a rather well known Pentecostal leader here in Melbourne had "protected" about 20 years back, so as you can imagine, if I can face up to our own wickedness, then the sins of the various historical denominations are absolutely fair game - let's hope that I can be as honest and judicial with my own life as well!

Edit: Added in 'State police'
Edit: Typo

As my primary interest is with Pneumatology, where my views are heavily conditioned by a strong Trinitarian foundation, this means that I will relate to the better contemporary scholars, be they theologians, exegetical scholars or lexiographers. This demands that I read through the better commentaries and monographs that are based on First Corinthians in particular, where at the moment I currently own 14 contemporary commentaries (along with about four monographs) on First Corinthians. My Avatar contains all of my commentaries on First Corinthians which came about when I had them stacked on my desk during a particular study. As I have an interest with photography I though that it would make a great Avatar, so I grabbed a background screen and hey presto!

Shane658 said:

Why is it that I have yet to see a Pentecostal or Charismatic have to the ability to speak in another language such as Greek, French and so on with out learning it,but all claim to have this private language? They are part of the endtime apostasy.

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As a Pentecosal of 40 years, I can confidently say that it will be highly unlikely that you (or I) will ever hear anyone speaking in a known human language when they are praying in tongues.

Paul goes to some lengths in First Corinthians to explain that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues), that the Holy Spirit will always direct his words to the Father, where in 1Cor 14:2 he goes on to say that no man will be able to understand what the Spirit is saying to the Father.