Kinzer's A BIBLICAL DEFENSE OF ORAL TORAH

Josephus

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Everything that Yah gave Moses was written down. Everything that Moses passed down to Joshua was written down. When they entered the promised land, Joshua read everything that Moses wrote to the people. There was nothing else. The law was lost twice in Old Testament times. Any oral law would have been lost also. Twice. Good thing for them it was only invented after the Babylonian exile.

There is an oral Torah and a written Torah.

"And HaShem spoke to Moses"

(This is the Oral Torah)

and

"Moses wrote down all the words of this Torah."

(He wrote down what HaShem spoke. This is Written Torah)

So there is an Oral Torah, which was first given to Moses. Moses then wrote it down. But what he wrote was divinely inspired so that what was said was fully encapsulated in the words and structure and letters and spaces, even the decorative flourishes of the Torah, so that the entire essense of what was said was captured, even down to the multidimensional inflextions of what G-d said. This is impossible with normal dictation. But with the Spirit of G-d, that is what we have with the Torah handed down to us today.

I agree that everything G-d gave Moses, even the instruction in the miztvah that came to be known as Oral Torah, was written down.

Now, how it's read is a different matter. In this light, I fully believe that all of what is understood by Judaism as oral Torah, is found in the logical multidimensional nature of the entirety of Torah. The Torah explains itself. We only need to pick up on its logical cues and clues to gain clarity when looking at it. We who are generations removed, are even more ignorant of this fact. But it can be proven. I have seen it myself.

Imagine an entire 4 hour long speech, condensed in such a way that an author encapsulates all of it in just a single paragraph or sentence, phrase, or letter, or period or punctuation mark, using the structure and design of the writing and its logical presentation as additional medium for inscribing the entire speech down to where even the inflexions and conjuctions used, let alone the entire speech, could be extracted from it. That is the Torah.

The Torah is oral.

Consider this: why is the first letter of the Torah divinely inspired to be written oversized? To teach us that nothing in the Torah is superfluous, that there is more to be understood from Torah than its immediately apparent face value, and one finds out by asking questions such as these.
 
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visionary

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I have often wondered what it would be like to be the fly on the wall to listen to the ongoing conversation between Moses and Yeshua on Mount Sinai on Moses second run up the mountain to "atone" for His people. Moses: So Sorry.... I broke your Laws... You have to understand I was so astounded at the contrast between what we talked about and what was going on when I got to camp. I couldn't believe it. I was furious. Please forgive me.
Yeshua: I understand.. You eloquently expressed what I was feeling. So what are we going to do about it.
Moses: Well, let me first cut out another block of stone for you to write upon and I promise not to break it again. I will take special care of it this time. Second, please forgive your people, they just got out of Egypt and having been slaves for all their lives are not yet thinking for themselves. They are working with what they know at this point and are making some ghastly mistakes.
Yeshua: So what do you suggest?
Moses: Well, they are use to a temple and services, so let's make one like the one I see you have. It will have to portable to start with, then once we get to the promised land, we can build you a nice place to dwell with us. We need your Presence.
Yeshua: I can do that. I will be with you and will not forsake you.
Moses: Second thing is these people need more than just ten rules to guide their lives. They will have a lot of questions of how to this and that, and I was thinking that if we incorporate all that you have shown me, with a simple outline, then we could be celebrating according to Your Appointed Times, and eating according to your Will.
Yeshua: OK... let's work out the details. We will discuss this and you will write it down so that you don't forget.
Moses: Fair enough.
 
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pat34lee

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Moses then wrote it down. But what he wrote was divinely inspired so that what was said was fully encapsulated in the words and structure and letters and spaces, even the decorative flourishes of the Torah, so that the entire essense of what was said was captured, even down to the multidimensional inflextions of what G-d said. This is impossible with normal dictation. But with the Spirit of G-d, that is what we have with the Torah handed down to us today.

Consider this: why is the first letter of the Torah divinely inspired to be written oversized? To teach us that nothing in the Torah is superfluous, that there is more to be understood from Torah than its immediately apparent face value, and one finds out by asking questions such as these.

There is a more than slight problem here, though with Yah, anything is possible.

Moses didn't write this:

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Or this:

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

But something more like the Paleo Hebrew on this page:
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B01C001.htm

Or in the even older Ancient Hebrew script.
 
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Josephus

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There is a more than slight problem here, though with Yah, anything is possible.

Moses didn't write this:

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Or this:

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.

But something more like the Paleo Hebrew on this page:
http://www.hebrewoldtestament.com/B01C001.htm

Or in the even older Ancient Hebrew script.

Actually, the Ivri (paleo) and Assuri (block) scripts have always co-existed, just as there are two scripts today.

There is more information communicated in the Assuri script (block Hebrew) with its crowns and letter construction, and only in Assuri script are there "jots" (smallest letter yud), and "tittles" (flourishes at the tips of letters) to which Jesus referred to that not the least of these strokes will disappear from the Torah.

The words that appeared in writing on the wall which Daniel translated, was in Assuri script, a script of Hebrew that Daniel, being familiar with the Temple's Torah scroll, was familiar with and able to read it. No one else could read it because no one else was familiar with the script (let alone the Temple's Torah scroll), even though the words themselves were in Hebrew! This tipped off the exiles to realizing that there was a more descriptive Hebrew script (and therefore one literally witnessed written by the finger of G-d) than the regular every day paleo and its generational derivatives that they were used to. This caused such a renaissance and movement of teshuvah among the exiles, that their fervor for the Torah and its exact replication, continues to this very day.

Why were the exiles unfamiliar with the Assuri script that Daniel was able to read? For the same reason there were two sets of stone tablets with the 10 Words, and why one tradition records the samech was suspended in space in one set which was broken (written in Assuri script), and the ayin suspended in space on the other set (written in paleo script). One is less holy, less descriptive than the other, and a reminder of what was lost through rebellion. In the same way, the Temple scroll was written and maintained in Assuri script, but the scrolls disseminated to people for every day study was written in paleo or its nearest generational morph. This loss of information by writing the Torah in paleo derivatives, was not a merit, but a rather a consequence. HaShem hid the delicacies of the Torah from the people because they hid themselves from G-d more and more until exile was warranted. It is a testimony to the sad state of the people's relationship with G-d, that only Daniel, was actually familiar with the script used in the Temple Torah scroll. His knowledge was sealed, vindicated, and approved by G-d by the literal writing from Heaven itself on the wall in Babylon which he alone was able to read. A script of Hebrew lost to the people which became known and was eventually restored with the return of the exiles under Cyrus.

It is with this deduction, that it is concluded that the Torah was indeed originally penned in Assuri script (block Hebrew) with all the crowning and flourishes and thus added information it gives to the text. It was only later disseminated in paleo derivatives as newer and newer generations removed themselves from the holiness of G-d, leading to their exile to Babylon. So much so, that the exiles were completely unfamiliar with the Assuri script... except Daniel, who had studied it in the Temple before Babylon took him away.

When the Torah scroll that was carried in the Ark of the Covenant is finally revealed to the world, it will be seen written in Assuri (block Hebrew), and the accompanying tablets (the second set that was not broken) will be seen written in paleo with a suspended ayin in space.
 
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ContraMundum

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Why bother with other birds which are probably unclean? There are enough that we know are edible.

Actually....it's an interesting point. Think about this scenario: A Jew gets stuck on an remote Island for months on end. Middle-Eastern Bible fare is rare and very difficult to find. How does he survive? What does he eat? Does God hate him for not finding kosher food?

It seems to me that at that point some oral tradition could be useful instruction.

Likewise- how exactly does one shecht? There's an awful lot of unanswered questions in the Torah.
 
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ContraMundum

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Actually, if you look at how they made many of their decisions, you will see there is no system.

Actually, there is...and of course the Bat Kol and all that...but it's not important...

And use it to justify majority rules, which means that a majority of Rabbis can overrule Yahweh. They also claim that they are always right, even when they are proven to be wrong.

That idea that the Rabbis "overrule" YHVH is not quite right, but you're on the right track AFAIK. My understanding is that they believe that as long as they are within Torah that any decisions or rulings that they make within that boundary YHVH will agree with. It is YHVH's sovereign choice to do it that way. I'm not sure how ancient that belief is, but I know it is found in Maimonides. Could be baloney but it does find its way into early Christianity so I suspect it is an old belief.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Actually, there is...and of course the Bat Kol and all that...but it's not important...



That idea that the Rabbis "overrule" YHVH is not quite right, but you're on the right track AFAIK. My understanding is that they believe that as long as they are within Torah that any decisions or rulings that they make within that boundary YHVH will agree with. It is YHVH's sovereign choice to do it that way. I'm not sure how ancient that belief is, but I know it is found in Maimonides. Could be baloney but it does find its way into early Christianity so I suspect it is an old belief.

I believe they derive the notion from the verse that says that the Torah 'is not in heaven.' God gave it to Israel to keep and to the priests and elders to interpret (Deut. 17) where it is not clear. If there were a 'bat kol' from heaven instructing such and such (pertaining to unclear commandments), they believed the Torah gave them authority to rule on the issue that exceeded the authority of the 'bat kol.'
 
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ContraMundum

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I believe they derive the notion from the verse that says that the Torah 'is not in heaven.' God gave it to Israel to keep and to the priests and elders to interpret (Deut. 17) where it is not clear. If there were a 'bat kol' from heaven instructing such and such (pertaining to unclear commandments), they believed the Torah gave them authority to rule on the issue that exceeded the authority of the 'bat kol.'

Yep, that sounds about right!
 
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Dave-W

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I have a problem with Kinzer - and it is not just that he is from Ann Arbor - aka "the other side of Hell."

My brother-in-law tried to attend his congregation and after a while was asked to leave because he was gentile. He is all for separating Jewish and gentile believers.
 
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ErezY

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Probably a knee jerk reaction to the one law push to be identified as a Messianic Judaism. I believe MJ needs to secure it's foundation before it fills it's halls with those trying to reform the movement to suit it's theology. To me this is the root of the BE/OL division. Messianic Jews are attempting to be identified as Jews by world Jewery, and the one law issue is completely derailing this. To me it makes the divide all the more clear. That there are those who see themselves as following a Judaism that no Jewish community identifies with. Having left the Church they are sticking out like soar thumbs in the Messianic world.
 
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Open Heart

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My brother-in-law tried to attend his congregation and after a while was asked to leave because he was gentile. He is all for separating Jewish and gentile believers.
Yeap. Stuart Dauermann is the same way. If you are intermarried, fine. If you are an unusual Gentile that resonates with all of Israel and wants to take on the covenant (much like many of those here in this forum) he encourages you to stay and even perhaps consider conversion to Judaism. Otherwise, he will suggest that perhaps the best place for you is the Christian church.

I believe all the Hashivenu rabbis take that position. The plus side is that their synagogues actually have a good sized number of Jews, rather than just a few token ones. As Stuart says, "You can't have a Judaism without Jews."
 
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pat34lee

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Could be baloney but it does find its way into early Christianity so I suspect it is an old belief.

The Catholics have a similar belief; that the Pope has the power to reinterpret or even change scripture, including the laws and the feasts.
 
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Truthfrees

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G-d gave Moses three things:

Exodus 24:12
“And the LORD said unto Moses: ‘Come up to Me into the mount and be there; and I will give thee the tables of stone, and the Torah and the commandment, which I have written, that thou mayest teach them.'”

The Tablets, the Torah, and the mitzvah for their instruction. One proceeds from the other. From the Tablets, the Torah is extracted, from the Torah, the miztvah. What is the mitzvah? That which was instructed.

It is a sign of exile ignorance to say that what is Oral Torah is not found in the Written Torah. The point is, many have forgotten where, and thus assume it is not found in the Written Torah. But I can assure you that one can logically extract the full and complete details of Tefillin, as well as the full and complete details of what is and is not kosher, as well as any other matter of halacha that is a mitzvah which is instructed, aka taught through from one teacher to another student orally. Whatever is halacha, aka what many call the Oral Torah, is in fact fully extractable from the Written Torah itself. The increasing ignorance of such an understanding in every generation though adds to the confusion and false belief that it is not found such.

It is interesting to note that in Judaism, the belief is that Messiah will reveal where everything in the Oral Torah is expanded from the Written Torah, just as the entirety of the Written Torah is expanded from the 10 Words which were engraved by the finger of G-d on stone tablets.
Well said. :oldthumbsup:
 
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ContraMundum

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The Catholics have a similar belief; that the Pope has the power to reinterpret or even change scripture, including the laws and the feasts.
That's not entirely true. In fact....it's just not.
 
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Lulav

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"The laws governing the wearing of phylacteries were derived by the Rabbis from four Biblical passages (Deut. vi. 8, xi. 18; Ex. xiii. 9, 16). While these passages were interpreted literally by most commentators (comp., however, Ibn Ezra and RaShbaM on Ex. xiii. 9), the Rabbis held that the general law only was expressed in the Bible, the application and elaboration of it being entirely matters of tradition and inference (Sanh. 88b)...."
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12125-phylacteries

You can take that literally but let me ask you this. When the Lord describes the clothing of the high priest He is very descriptive but not so in these verses. He gives no description of how to make them, what they look like, and there isn't anyway one could literally keep all Torah bound to the head and hand, so did He mean to literally tie something to the head and hand, or was He saying, keep it in your heart and soul, and bind them to your actions and thoughts?

Deu 11:18 `And ye have placed these my words on your heart, and on your soul, and have bound them for a sign on your hand, and they have been for frontlets between your eyes;
Deu 11:19 and ye have taught them to your sons, by speaking of them in thy sitting in thy house, and in thy going in the way, and in thy lying down, and in thy rising up,
Deu 11:20 and hast written them on the side-posts of thy house, and on thy gates,
H7194=bound, bind
קשׁר
qâshar
kaw-shar'
A primitive root; to tie, physically (gird, confine, compact) or mentally (in love, league): - bind (up), (make a) conspire (-acy, -ator), join together, knit, stronger, work [treason].

The hand here is the 'yod' the open hand, doing them willingly, between the eyes or before you always seeing them.


Oral Law was written by men who were attempting to interrupt scripture. They didn't always agree between themselves. Even Rambam and Rashi didn't always agree. The Talmud, etc. are commentaries just like the commentaries written by Christian men.
There is so much that is traditions that has nothing to do with anything written in scripture, such as the four cups of wine with the Passover feast or the Kippah.
You asked me where it said that and I showed you. The Sages have determined down throughout the ages just how to do that. You also have to take into consideration outside influences, exiles and the like.

You can take that literally but let me ask you this. When the Lord describes the clothing of the high priest He is very descriptive but not so in these verses. He gives no description of how to make them, what they look like, and there isn't anyway one could literally keep all Torah bound to the head and hand, so did He mean to literally tie something to the head and hand, or was He saying, keep it in your heart and soul, and bind them to your actions and thoughts?

It was important for the priestly garments to be made from specific materials and a specific way for specific reasons, mainly

The High Priest was the channel between heaven and earth. there is a High Priest on earth who emulates the one in Heaven. He was to come into contact once a year with G-d himself and had to be dressed in a specific way for the interaction to not be fatal.

So since there aren't phylacteries in heaven there is not need for specific directions on how to make them. The word in Hebrew translated phylacteries or teffilin means a type of band, something that can bind something to another so there is a physical literal meaning, not just spiritual and the scriptures within are representative of the Torah as a whole.
 
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Hank77

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You asked me where it said that and I showed you.
Sorry, I should have stated my request more clearly. I should have said, where in scripture does it describe boxes containing laws tied to one forehead and left arm.
The High Priest was the channel between heaven and earth. there is a High Priest on earth who emulates the one in Heaven.
Yeshua was/is in heaven dressed in the High Priest garments? Cool, I have wanted to see the ephod and the breastplate.
So since there aren't phylacteries in heaven there is not need for specific directions on how to make them.
So this is the reasoning by the Sages, interesting. Thanks.
 
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