Mother's Regret Transitioning Children

[SilverBear]

The APA acknowledges that the affirmative care model can lead to sterilization of children (aka the inability to have children).

What more evidence do you need?

Still looking for evidence that the hospital is actualy doing this.

 

[SilverBear]

The hospital site describes they follow the the gender dysphoria and gender incongruence guidelines. Those guidelines allow for chemically castrating kids with gender drugs and also support surgeries for kids.

Gender Dysphoria/Gender Incongruence Guideline Resources

The 2017 Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons is an update to the 2009 version, which establishes and standardizes the terminology and safe treatment of gender dysphoric/gender-incongruent persons and reaffirming the role of endocrinologists.

www.endocrine.org

Here is what the guidelines say.

2.1. We suggest that adolescents who meet diagnostic criteria for GD/gender incongruence, fulfill criteria for treatment, and are requesting treatment should initially undergo treatment to suppress pubertal development. (2 |⊕⊕OO)
2.2. We suggest that clinicians begin pubertal hormone suppression after girls and boys first exhibit physical changes of puberty.
So we know what they are doing chemically.

This isn't castration or mutilation

They also recommend waiting until 18 as an age fro surgeries. But it is a RECOMMENDATION only and admit that they believe there is no requirement to follow it and there is nothing to say they shouldn't do surgeries on minors.

and nothing that says they are.

 

[SilverBear]

There was a special to be aired on NBC I think regarding gender clinics and their increasing popularity, etc. They also intended to air a segment on detransitioners....which was a substantial part of the special (20-30 minutes if I remember correctly).

After repeated threats and attacks....the segment was cut down to 5 minutes with many detransitioners edited out entirely.

Evidence?

 

[SilverBear]

In all fairness, while it's true that a very small percentage actually "detransition", that's not synonymous with "regretting the decision".

If someone has already spent countless dollars and transitioned, to the point where they may not even be able to go back (for instance if they've already had bottom surgery), they're pretty much stuck with the path of least resistance in terms of "fitting in to society" which means sticking with it even if they regret their decision.

Or, to put in more bluntly...if you've already had your penis chopped off and had breast implants and been taking feminizing hormones for 5-10 years, you're kind of at the point of no return so a true "detransition" isn't even an option even if you regret the initial decision....at that point, if you have any hope of wanting to "fit in", you're easiest option is to continue identifying as a woman.

Detransition happens for many reasons only a tiny fraction is because of regret.

S. Davies et al 2022 Detransition rates in a national UK Gender Identity Clinic Surveyed 3398 individuals who transitioned over the last two decades. They found 0.47% experienced transition-related regret. Of these, only two went on to actually detransition and become detransitioners.

J. Turban et al 2021 Factors Leading to "Detransition" Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States found that of those who do engage in some form of detransition the majority 83% only did so temporarily due to societal, financial, or family pressures.

 

[Gene2memE]

The APA acknowledges that the affirmative care model can lead to sterilization of children (aka the inability to have children).

What more evidence do you need?

Can I have a citation from the APA?

The only things I can find from the APA concerning sterilization of transgender individuals are notes of concern about "irreversible forced surgery or sterilization of intersex and transgender individuals" in some countries and that "transgender individuals may be victims of forced sterilization or castration".

 

[ThatRobGuy]

but....but what if the other 96% are just...happy?

Why can't we just allow that to be true?

Given that the suicide attempt rate is still pretty high (even after transitioning)

I think it's a stretch to say that 96% are perfectly fine and happy.

While the transition does reduce suicidal ideation by over 30% (which shouldn't be ignored), the baseline suicidal ideation rate is so high that I think it's unrealistic to say "everyone who doesn't detransition must be perfectly happy and content with their decision".


I also think some numbers get conflated here with regards to the conversations about children. With regards to children, the major concern isn't with detransition as much as it is with desistence rates.

While the desistence percentage is likely not as high as the earlier studies had it pegged at (90%) due to some methodology flaws. More current, refined studies (that corrected for many of those methodology flaws) still have that number being over 60%. Which is a high enough number to warrant some caution. Whereas, desistence rates for adults seems to be much much lower.

It would also seem that waiting may even be more prudent now given new surveys and research that's coming out.

UCSF gender clinician Erica Anderson, who is transgender herself, had some interesting findings as well. Of the 25,000 participants in a LGBT+ survey, one third of the participants who wanted to identify as the opposite sex/gender when younger, ended up landing on identifying as non-binary when they got a little older... which adds some considerations to the desistence conversation.

1) Non-binary identity isn't associated with the same usage of surgical and hormonal intervention. (and for the percentage of non-binary who do opt for it, they typically opt for "micro dosing" the hormones, and fewer than 1% of non-binary people seek any sort of surgery.

2) That means there's another desistence path apart from the one people tend to talk about and that maybe needs to be considered. If someone were to go "all in" on surgery and/or hormones at age 16-17 (when they're at a period of life where they're still "finding themselves"), and then realize 5 years later that maybe what they actually are is more in the non-binary realm, they're kind of "past the point of no return" as well if they've already had surgeries.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Detransition happens for many reasons only a tiny fraction is because of regret.

S. Davies et al 2022 Detransition rates in a national UK Gender Identity Clinic Surveyed 3398 individuals who transitioned over the last two decades. They found 0.47% experienced transition-related regret. Of these, only two went on to actually detransition and become detransitioners.

J. Turban et al 2021 Factors Leading to "Detransition" Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States found that of those who do engage in some form of detransition the majority 83% only did so temporarily due to societal, financial, or family pressures.

But one can experience regret without detransitioning. As I mentioned before, if a person has already spent thousands of dollars, and experienced physical changes that are past the point of being reversable, they could experience regret, but not detransition.

 

[rambot]

Given that the suicide attempt rate is still pretty high (even after transitioning)

I think it's a stretch to say that 96% are perfectly fine and happy.

But it's not. Many of these people indicate they are HAPPY with their transition but that their other mental health issues don't simply disappear afterwards.

That doesn't mean they aren't happy with their transition though.

 

[rambot]

Why? You should only get the airtime based on your percentage of the population?

For the same reason that this data point is not necessarily the one you'd want to through your money and research behind:

Sure you address it. I'm not saying ignore it. I'm also not saying silence it.

I just saying it's not worth the time and passion that the trends indicate.

If the thing you're advocating for cannot allow alternative viewpoints to express themselves, alternative explanations to be considered, and attempts to silence people with those viewpoints and explanations.....do you think it's still a good idea to advocate for that thing?

They got 5 minutes.

I posted an article about a trans gentlemen whose a prof in social work who has been researching detransitioning. The article was in the NYTimes.

What does it take for folks to "not feel silenced"?

 

[rjs330]

This isn't castration or mutilation

and nothing that says they are.

Yes it is chemically castrating kids. It's sad that saying so upsets you more that the actual act of doing it to kids.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Hey, remember that small exchange we had regarding "debate" and how few on the left are willing to debate anymore?

Did you see Ana (Kasperian?) Of TYT talk with Ben Shapiro recently?

I only saw a clip of her explaining why she was willing to sit down with him and my jaw dropped. I really hope she and Ben didn't go at each other too hard.

I watched the whole thing, they kept it pretty civil I would say.

I actually don't mind listening to Ana speak (even though I disagree with her on half of the issues), I just have a hard time getting through a full TYT episode due to how obnoxious Cenk can be. (There are times when Cenk's behavior are likened to something of a left-wing Charlie Kirk)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

But it's not. Many of these people indicate they are HAPPY with their transition but that their other mental health issues don't simply disappear afterwards.

That doesn't mean they aren't happy with their transition though.

That's a fair counterpoint...

But given what we know about detransition and desistence rates...and given what we know about desistence rate disparities between young people and adults, any risk of creating more people who will be unhappy with that particular decision later?

The desistence rates for adults is around 5%...the detransition rates for adults based what you guys have mentioned is around 4% give or take. So given that the only people 15 years ago getting certain medical interventions were adults (who were less likely to change their minds), I'd be hesitant to try to predict adolescent outcomes based on data pertaining to 25-40 year olds. And, we know adults tend to have more realistic expectations than adolescents do with regards to body changes, thereby, are less likely to feel "disappointed" with the results.

The overall desistence rates for youth is around 60% if you look at the more current estimates (with some desisting back to cis, while other desist into a nonbinary identity - and nonbinary identity is associated with very little hormone use (and lower dosages when it is used) and almost no surgeries, which means it's almost entirely reversible -- and which according to the UCSF gender clinician Erica Anderson, trans->nonbinary accounts for 1 out of 3 people who identified as the opposite sex/gender during youth & adolescents when surveyed.

Meaning, there's a lot of people who when they're young, don't feel like a "boy", so they assume "that must mean I'm supposed to be a girl", only to determine a few years later "well, I don't really conform to 'girl' either". It's probably best to let that sort of self-discovery play out for bit before doing anything that can't be "undone".

...which is also why I have a very different reaction to the concept of "social transition" than I do to "medical transition". The latter leaves much less of an "off ramp" if, in 5 years down the road, a person feels differently at 21 than they felt at 16.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Still looking for evidence that the hospital is actualy doing this.

I don't think anyone has to go to a hospital to get on puberty blockers and HRT.

 

[Ana the Ist]

For the same reason that this data point is not necessarily the one you'd want to through your money and research behind:

View attachment 328076

Gotcha....keep the marginalised from speaking. Keep them marginalized.

Sure you address it. I'm not saying ignore it. I'm also not saying silence it.

You are saying silence it.

I just saying it's not worth the time and passion that the trends indicate.

That depends upon what exactly the issue is....we aren't talking about some kid randomly beating a chess grandmaster. We're talking about a lifelong and permanent medical intervention into children who don't need it....we aren't talking about chemotherapy here. We're talking about plastic surgery.

They got 5 minutes.

And the entire episode was supposed to be about them.

I posted an article about a trans gentlemen whose a prof in social work who has been researching detransitioning. The article was in the NYTimes.

What post#?

What does it take for folks to "not feel silenced"?

I imagine that it would involve a free and open discussion where an entire activist lobby doesn't threaten and harass them for speaking out.

 

[rambot]

Gotcha....keep the marginalised from speaking. Keep them marginalized.

If we are going to take this form of addressing each other, why are we obliged to hear every single individuals idea, no matter how outlandish it is?
Why is everyone obliged to learn about flat earth be taught in schools? or phlogiston? or phrenology?

You are saying silence it.

I'm not. I'm saying give it the attention the evidence purports it is due.

 

[SilverBear]

Given that the suicide attempt rate is still pretty high (even after transitioning)

I think it's a stretch to say that 96% are perfectly fine and happy.

While the transition does reduce suicidal ideation by over 30% (which shouldn't be ignored), the baseline suicidal ideation rate is so high that I think it's unrealistic to say "everyone who doesn't detransition must be perfectly happy and content with their decision".

C. Dheine 2011 Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden. This 11 year study found no statistical difference in the suicide rate between those who have transitioned and the general population.

I also think some numbers get conflated here with regards to the conversations about children. With regards to children, the major concern isn't with detransition as much as it is with desistence rates.

While the desistence percentage is likely not as high as the earlier studies had it pegged at (90%) due to some methodology flaws. More current, refined studies (that corrected for many of those methodology flaws) still have that number being over 60%. Which is a high enough number to warrant some caution. Whereas, desistence rates for adults seems to be much much lower.

Citations please

It would also seem that waiting may even be more prudent now given new surveys and research that's coming out.

UCSF gender clinician Erica Anderson, who is transgender herself, had some interesting findings as well. Of the 25,000 participants in a LGBT+ survey, one third of the participants who wanted to identify as the opposite sex/gender when younger, ended up landing on identifying as non-binary when they got a little older... which adds some considerations to the desistence conversation.

Citation?

 

[SilverBear]

Yes it is chemically castrating kids. It's sad that saying so upsets you more that the actual act of doing it to kids.

NOoit isn't and i am sorry that this simple fact upsets you so.

 

[SilverBear]

I don't think anyone has to go to a hospital to get on puberty blockers and HRT.

and still no evidence ...

 

[MehGuy]

Good on them.

Although I don't think they should feel too bad. It's not like they deliberately pushed their sons into identifying as girls in order to have trendy "transgender" children. Choose your company wisely, try to avoid hanging around vapid people if you can.

Stories like this show me that some people on the left have a good heart, even if it might be misguided at times.

 

[rjs330]

NOoit isn't and i am sorry that this simple fact upsets you so.

Yeah it is. That's what the drugs were for before we started giving the. To kids.