Mother's Regret Transitioning Children

[rambot]

I'm curious about everyone's response to this study:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/soin.12154

The results show that religious affiliation is a significant predictor of LGBT individuals’ happiness. LGBT individuals who identify as Catholic, agnostic or atheist, or with no particular religious affiliation report lower levels of happiness compared to mainline Protestants

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I'll be honest...the "non-binary" claim is just a fad imo. It doesn’t refer to an actual gender. In fact, I think it's nothing but a placeholder for people who fundamentally look inside and realize there is no "feels like a man/woman" feeling....because it either doesn't exist or isn't identifiable without feeling it's opposite.

Rather than unending the whole agenda...."non-binary" sidesteps the very inconvenient possibilities of transgenderism actually being nothing more than the desire to be the opposite sex....and gender being a false construct.

That's quite possible that the non-binary thing is a "fad"...some people who claim the status certain make it look that way in certain instances, but even then, I think the same cause for concern still stands with regards to young people getting surgical and hormonal interventions.

Whether it's a fad or it's real, the end result is the same in that it's a person potentially doing something to themselves at age 16-17, that they could end up wishing they hadn't done once they're 25.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Citations please

Citation?

Not sure exactly which parts you're looking for citations on...but if you're referring to Erica Anderson's research and the polling that went into it regarding a large percentage of people who identify as opposite sex early on, and then fall into a nonbinary role later on (as well as the desistence rate data -- including the part where they originally, incorrectly, thought it was 90%, but then lowered it to 60%) are covered here

The Controversial Research on 'Desistance' in Transgender Youth | KQED

For decades, follow-up studies of transgender kids have shown that a substantial majority eventually ceased to identify as transgender. But some gender researchers say that research is faulty.

www.kqed.org

C. Dheine 2011 Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in Sweden. This 11 year study found no statistical difference in the suicide rate between those who have transitioned and the general population.

Suicide ideation rate and suicide rate are two different things.

Suicidal ideation refers to people having thoughts of (or considering) suicide. Suicide rate refers to people who actually do it.

As noted, the suicide ideation rate is reduced by over 40% (which is a good thing) post transition, but the suicide ideation rate (baseline) pre-transition is already really high.

Suicidality Among Transgender Youth: Elucidating the Role of Interpersonal Risk Factors - PubMed
82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide

New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery are Significantly Less Likely to Experience Psychological Distress or Suicidal Ideation - Fenway Health

BOSTON, April 28, 2021—A new study published today in JAMA Surgery found that gender-affirming surgery is associated with improved mental health outcomes

fenwayhealth.org

44% reduction in the odds of past-year suicidal ideation.


So, if you had 10,000 transgender people.
8,200 would have suicidal ideation (on average)

If you allowed all of them to transition as they see fit, that 44% reduction (from 8,200) would mean that 4,600 (of the 10,000) would still being having suicidal ideation.


I would also note, your long-term follow-up study example was from Sweden, a country that has more rigorous standards before they allow someone to embark on such an endeavor.

Like with anything else, more time spent upstream and more probing questions and consultation with experts (in order to diligently weed out people who aren't good candidates for it) leads to less regret later when it comes to major life altering decisions.

My primary issue with this isn't that there are people who want to transition via surgery or hormonal supplementation, my issue is that due diligence isn't being done, and people are proposing these sorts of things for age ranges where we know impulse control is lacking. I don't want a 16 year old to do this sort of thing for the same reason I don't want a 16 year old to have a gun, get married, or opt for a vasectomy.

I often use the Tattoo analogy. 78% of people who get a tattoo between 18-20 regret the decision later.

If there was a better screening process and better consultation before getting one done to make the sure the person "really" wanted to do it, or they made people wait until age 25 before getting the tattoo, the "regret rate" would be much lower.

 

[SilverBear]

I think there is something wrong with your numbers. The conclusion was this.

Conclusion​

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.


Are you saying the conclusions are wrong?

They had more to say and I can quote them if you wish. But if the authors of the study say 1 more is substantially higher then I have to really doubt this study. They are really off base with the study if you are correct. Much of what they had to say is completely wrong if you are right.

between 1989 and 2003 there were 3 suicides among the subjects that had completed transition. If you go looking you can find a number of interviews Cecilia Dhejne the author of the study gave where she discusses how some are quote mining and misusing her work ....in pretty much the fashion you are here.

 

[SilverBear]

The evidence that youths who haven't transitioned are in some danger of suicide is lacking.

Yet we keep hearing claims about that.

 

[SilverBear]

Yeah.



And you want me to cite the APA because in your mind....they don't know these treatments sterilize children?

I want you to actually refence your claim.

 

[SilverBear]

Makes you wonder why a worldly platform has to censor it, because Youtube is known for censoring things it doesn't agree with, I mean "lies"

You tube has a long hisotry of removing content that violates their terms of service agreement

 

[SilverBear]

Not sure exactly which parts you're looking for citations on...but if you're referring to Erica Anderson's research and the polling that went into it regarding a large percentage of people who identify as opposite sex early on, and then fall into a nonbinary role later on (as well as the desistence rate data -- including the part where they originally, incorrectly, thought it was 90%, but then lowered it to 60%) are covered here

The Controversial Research on 'Desistance' in Transgender Youth | KQED

For decades, follow-up studies of transgender kids have shown that a substantial majority eventually ceased to identify as transgender. But some gender researchers say that research is faulty.

www.kqed.org

Did you read this before you posted? I ask that with all sincerity because it isn't about Anderson's research but rather why the numbers you are quoting are not trustworthy...

Suicide ideation rate and suicide rate are two different things.

Suicidal ideation refers to people having thoughts of (or considering) suicide. Suicide rate refers to people who actually do it.

Yes i do know the difference
the same long term study found that individuals who has transitioned were actually at a lower risk for suicidal ideation and attempts. that that same 1989 t0 2003 time period 29 transitioned individuals had ideations/attempts while the control group of the general population had 44 incidents

As noted, the suicide ideation rate is reduced by over 40% (which is a good thing) post transition, but the suicide ideation rate (baseline) pre-transition is already really high.

Suicidality Among Transgender Youth: Elucidating the Role of Interpersonal Risk Factors - PubMed
82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide

and why does the study you link think the cause of this is?

New Study Shows Transgender People Who Receive Gender-Affirming Surgery are Significantly Less Likely to Experience Psychological Distress or Suicidal Ideation - Fenway Health

BOSTON, April 28, 2021—A new study published today in JAMA Surgery found that gender-affirming surgery is associated with improved mental health outcomes

fenwayhealth.org

44% reduction in the odds of past-year suicidal ideation.


So, if you had 10,000 transgender people.
8,200 would have suicidal ideation (on average)

If you allowed all of them to transition as they see fit, that 44% reduction (from 8,200) would mean that 4,600 (of the 10,000) would still being having suicidal ideation.

you might want to read the full study before pulling numbers out of thin air.

I would also note, your long-term follow-up study example was from Sweden, a country that has more rigorous standards before they allow someone to embark on such an endeavor.

Evidence?

Like with anything else, more time spent upstream and more probing questions and consultation with experts (in order to diligently weed out people who aren't good candidates for it) leads to less regret later when it comes to major life altering decisions.

My primary issue with this isn't that there are people who want to transition via surgery or hormonal supplementation, my issue is that due diligence isn't being done, and people are proposing these sorts of things for age ranges where we know impulse control is lacking. I don't want a 16 year old to do this sort of thing for the same reason I don't want a 16 year old to have a gun, get married, or opt for a vasectomy.

I often use the Tattoo analogy. 78% of people who get a tattoo between 18-20 regret the decision later.

If there was a better screening process and better consultation before getting one done to make the sure the person "really" wanted to do it, or they made people wait until age 25 before getting the tattoo, the "regret rate" would be much lower.

i see a lot of assumptions here

 

[rjs330]

between 1989 and 2003 there were 3 suicides among the subjects that had completed transition. If you go looking you can find a number of interviews Cecilia Dhejne the author of the study gave where she discusses how some are quote mining and misusing her work ....in pretty much the fashion you are here.

Lol, how can quoting the entire conclusion be quote mining. It appears if your understanding of the numbers are correct then THEY are the ones that greatly exaggerated. If that's the case then I find their total study extremely untrustworthy.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yet we keep hearing claims about that.

And anytime someone wants to back those claims up....they can.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I want you to actually refence your claim.

Oh I know. I'm asking why. @Gene2memE is probably interested in the facts. I can't recall you ever caring about the evidence at all....for example, remember when you told that story about the 17yo girl who came across the trans woman in the locker room and you told everyone that trans woman had "bottom surgery" years ago, without evidence, and contrary to the article in the OP?

Seems to be little point in providing you any evidence at all. It doesn't influence your opinions in any noticeable way from where I'm sitting.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Did you read this before you posted? I ask that with all sincerity because it isn't about Anderson's research but rather why the numbers you are quoting are not trustworthy...

If the way it's worded is what you take issue with, then I'll rephrase it as "interpretation of the survey", better?

Yes i do know the difference
the same long term study found that individuals who has transitioned were actually at a lower risk for suicidal ideation and attempts. that that same 1989 t0 2003 time period 29 transitioned individuals had ideations/attempts while the control group of the general population had 44 incidents

Your reply made it sounds like you were conflating the two. I made a post about the suicide ideation rate, and your rebuttal was talking about the suicide rate.

and why does the study you link think the cause of this is?

There's a combination of factors at play...some of them internal, some of them environmental.

you might want to read the full study before pulling numbers out of thin air.

Which number did I pull out of thin air? The numbers I had highlighted in yellow in the post you were replying to were copied and pasted directly from the studies
82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide
44% reduction in the odds of past-year suicidal ideation.

Evidence?

Evidence of Sweden having more rigorous standards with regards to transitioning?

I believe this was the study you linked earlier, but this link covers some of it, the process (during the time period this link covers) mentions that it involved the person receiving a dysphoria diagnosis and being referred to one of six specialized teams in the country, and if approved by one of those teams, the person applies for permission from a federal regulatory board.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.To ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And they've opted to go even stricter recently

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

i see a lot of assumptions here

What, that more consultation and counseling time with regards to big decisions (in order to weed out people who may not be good candidates) will reduce the amount of "buyer's remorse" later?

You can call that an "assumption", but it's one (based on common-sense caution) that most people have based on everything we know about human behavior and observing other big decisions people make. And the younger (and more impulsive) a person is, the more thoughtful consideration is warranted.

Take the stats on marriage for example:

Divorce Statistics and Facts | What Affects Divorce Rates in the U.S.?

We found every divorce statistic, study and fact you need to know - over 115 in all. Find out what impacts divorce (spoiler: almost everything).

www.wf-lawyers.com

 

[Ana the Ist]

I want you to actually refence your claim.

Desperate poster....why don't you come to your senses?

You've been out refencing your claims...even though they weren't actually your claims.....

But desperate poster? It must be lonely waiting for evidence....not that it doesn't exist....but there's no point in showing it now. Desperate poster......your habit of asking everyone to qualify even the slightest claim, has been well documented...it happens so often now, the results are predictable....

*prior statements to be sung in the tune of "Desperado" by The Eagles*

@SilverBear you may not remember this, but I recall your original position on this issue....

1. It's not happening. It's been wildly overblown and every individual case is treated with the utmost care.

2. Anyone who refuses to concede to every trans activist demand is a bigot/transphobe..

3. You claim work at a gender clinic and have firsthand knowledge of what happens there.

Has any of these positions changed?

 

[SilverBear]

Lol, how can quoting the entire conclusion be quote mining.

Because of the way you are using that summary. everything is lumped together and you are trying to pick out a single piece to justify your personal prejudice but the study itself is not supporting your position

It appears if your understanding of the numbers are correct then THEY are the ones that greatly exaggerated. If that's the case then I find their total study extremely untrustworthy.

So you are rejecting one of the largest and most comprehensive studies available because you don[t like the results

 

[SilverBear]

And anytime someone wants to back those claims up....they can.

and when you are asked ot back up your claims....well apparently you don't want to back them up.

 

[SilverBear]

Desperate poster....why don't you come to your senses?

oh I know you won['t ever back up your APA claim, because you can't

You've been out refencing your claims...even though they weren't actually your claims.....

But desperate poster? It must be lonely waiting for evidence....not that it doesn't exist....but there's no point in showing it now. Desperate poster......your habit of asking everyone to qualify even the slightest claim, has been well documented...it happens so often now, the results are predictable....

*prior statements to be sung in the tune of "Desperado" by The Eagles*

@SilverBear you may not remember this, but I recall your original position on this issue....

1. It's not happening. It's been wildly overblown and every individual case is treated with the utmost care.

2. Anyone who refuses to concede to every trans activist demand is a bigot/transphobe..

3. You claim work at a gender clinic and have firsthand knowledge of what happens there.

Has any of these positions changed?

I know you won't do it but i will ask anyhow. Please cite where i actually said any of this

 

[rjs330]

Because of the way you are using that summary. everything is lumped together and you are trying to pick out a single piece to justify your personal prejudice but the study itself is not supporting your position

I'm quoting the ACTUAL CONCLUSION of the study. They are not my words or my conclusion. It's the conclusion those that did the study actually made.
It is YOU that are drawing different conclusions than the authors did. Are you claiming that the authors of the study came to the wrong conclusion?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If the way it's worded is what you take issue with, then I'll rephrase it as "interpretation of the survey", better?



Your reply made it sounds like you were conflating the two. I made a post about the suicide ideation rate, and your rebuttal was talking about the suicide rate.
View attachment 328166

There's a combination of factors at play...some of them internal, some of them environmental.

Which number did I pull out of thin air? The numbers I had highlighted in yellow in the post you were replying to were copied and pasted directly from the studies
82% of transgender individuals have considered killing themselves and 40% have attempted suicide
44% reduction in the odds of past-year suicidal ideation.

Evidence of Sweden having more rigorous standards with regards to transitioning?

I believe this was the study you linked earlier, but this link covers some of it, the process (during the time period this link covers) mentions that it involved the person receiving a dysphoria diagnosis and being referred to one of six specialized teams in the country, and if approved by one of those teams, the person applies for permission from a federal regulatory board.

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.To ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And they've opted to go even stricter recently

Summary of Key Recommendations from the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen/NBHW)

Background In February 2022, the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare (NBHW) issued an update to its health care service guidelines for children and youth

segm.org

What, that more consultation and counseling time with regards to big decisions (in order to weed out people who may not be good candidates) will reduce the amount of "buyer's remorse" later?

You can call that an "assumption", but it's one (based on common-sense caution) that most people have based on everything we know about human behavior and observing other big decisions people make. And the younger (and more impulsive) a person is, the more thoughtful consideration is warranted.

Take the stats on marriage for example:

Divorce Statistics and Facts | What Affects Divorce Rates in the U.S.?

We found every divorce statistic, study and fact you need to know - over 115 in all. Find out what impacts divorce (spoiler: almost everything).

www.wf-lawyers.com

The studies I've read regarding the use of puberty blockers and HRT in "patients" as young as 12 (not FDA approved as treatment either...think about that. They gave emergency approval to a vaccine of unknown efficacy that's never been tried before in less than a year, but they won't approve these treatments for trans youth). And there's an outrageous irony in the discussion of these treatments that's obvious to anyone with half a brain....

They're well aware that unless you've already undergone puberty....and you decide to end HRT in a relatively short time, there will be damage to your reproductive ability .....permanently. To say that these treatments sterilize children isn't much of an exaggeration.

What is suggested is for the Dr to walk through options for fertility like cryogenic freezing of sperm or eggs....and doing this multiple times for any child younger than 17. Why? Because they don't believe a child that young can fully understand the sacrifice they are making at that age. They're simply too young to fully grasp what an infertile adulthood looks like....

An that's wild to me....because they're only in this position because someone decided they were capable of choosing to be a man or woman contrary to the very biological reality they were born into.....at 12 years old.

It's hard for me to explain how that happens without first stating that trans activists have injected their ideological and political beliefs directly into a community that is being corrupted by political and corporate interests.

oh I know you won['t ever back up your APA claim, because you can't

If @Gene2memE pops back into the thread and expresses an interest in the citation, I'll gladly PM it to him.

There's no reason at all to give it to you....I don't think you even disagree with the claim.

I know you won't do it but i will ask anyhow. Please cite where i actually said any of this

Post #166. You asked me to refence my claim lol.

 

[rjs330]

oh I know you won['t ever back up your APA claim, because you can't

I know you won't do it but i will ask anyhow. Please cite where i actually said any of this

All right let's do this. We've been doing this a while with you and know a lot of what you've said. But let's do this now to confirm.

1. Do you believe it's not happening and is widely over blown? Do you believe all these cases are handled in the utmost care?

2. Do you believe that anyone who refuses to give in to trans activists demands is a transphobe or a bigot?

3. You work at a gender clinic and have first hand knowledge of what happens there?

Let's see how you respond.

 

[SilverBear]

The studies I've read regarding the use of puberty blockers and HRT in "patients" as young as 12 (not FDA approved as treatment either...think about that. They gave emergency approval to a vaccine of unknown efficacy that's never been tried before in less than a year, but they won't approve these treatments for trans youth). And there's an outrageous irony in the discussion of these treatments that's obvious to anyone with half a brain....

Goserelin FDA approval

Leuprolide FDA approval

Histrelin FDA approval

Triptorelin FDA approval



Try again