What is your end times view on the rapture?

[iamlamad]

The Bible doesn't say that. It says the CITY (Jerusalem) was divided into three parts. This is called SOLVING PUZZLES by using logic. What is the City ? Well, in Vial 6 they Gathered the Nations unto Armageddon, which is in Israel, now where does Jesus land ? In Zechariah 14 we see that he lands on the Mt. of Olives (in Jerusalem) just before destroying the Nations that come against Israel.

SO......The City that is divided is Jerusalem, and we understand the Dead Sea will be Dead no longer, the Mountain will split into. So the CITY is Jerusalem, not some fictional Babylon somewhere. You guys just don't seem to be able to put all the verses together, you have to cross reference all the verses to get to the truth.

The Cities of the Nations are THOSE GATHERED AGAINST ISRAEL at Armageddon, which is mentioned in VIAL 6, so they are destroyed, and God remembers Babylon, and thus destroys the Anti-Christ, the 10 Nations and the Kings of the East. After this, IT IS DONE....There is nothing left. These are BABYLON.

I pretty much agreed up to this last point. I am convinced that the great wh**e Mystery Babylon is referring solely to the city of Jerusalem - but only during the time that the Antichrist and False prophet are deceiving the entire world from that city. After all, what they will do will make all previous deceptions seem insignificant.

The real city will be destroyed, but will be rebuilt. The Mystery Babylon that deceives will never live again.

Reread what I said.......Israel rebuilds the Temple, thinking they need animal sacrifices. Elijah returns and preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ being Israel's Savior, Israel REPENTS and ACCEPTS Jesus and the immediately STOP THE SACRIFICIAL OFFERINGS, and start worshiping Jesus and thus make offering of PRAYER and REPENTANCE. Then the Anti-Christ comes in and defiles the Temple. Think about it, how can the Anti-Christ defile a Temple that is not worshiping Jesus at the time he overtakes it ? Any Temple sacrificing animals when Jesus has already paid the PRICE for our Sins, is already DEFILED....Jesus has to be being Worshiped in order for the Temple to be defiled.

I don't think so. It will be the abomination that stops the sacrifices. I believe Enoch and Elijah will be the two prophets but they will not show up until 3 1/2 days before the abomination that divides the week. When Israel (the people in general) see the abomination they will know then who this man really is. They will not be deceived further. But they will face the days of great tribulation. I think they will accept Jesus when they SEE Him and see the nail holes in his hands, and finally realize He was their Messiah after all. And they will mourn.

Remember, this is the 70th week: truly the END of the Old Covenant and the associated laws governing that covenant. As soon as a Gentile man (and certainly not a chosen high Priest) enters the temple, the temple is defiled and they must come up with a red heifer without spot to cleanse it again. But they will have no time. The Beast will be after them. So as Daniel wrote in 9:27 the daily sacrifices will stop.

Of course WE know there will be no need for these sacrifices. Sadly they will not know at this time.

It is a vision of Israel being NO MORE........Then LIVING AGAIN. You guys way over-complicate these visions. This is about the Nation being NO MORE.................Then coming back to life. This is why there is only a Seven Headed Beast...........Without the British Empire or Ottoman Empire. There was no ISRAEL, now there is.

We are at the end. Jesus will reign a 1000 years. But that is after the Anti-Christ is defeated.

Seven heads: Daniel tells us there were ten nations: the Beast takes out 3, leaving 7. I am convinced they are Muslim nations, every one.

That is because what I say is truth, Rev. 17 and 18 comes after Jesus defeats the Anti-Christ in Rev. 16....IT IS DONE. Its obvious. Rev. 17 and 18 are only MORE DETAILED Descriptions of those TWO EVENTS.

This is not true. Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial that ends the week. Jesus own words are that He comes "AFTER" "the tribulation of those days." There is no need to rearrange Revelation. John shows Jesus coming in chapter 19, AFTER those days of tribulation. He did say "immediately" after, so there will not be much time between chapter 16 and chapter 19. How much time? Probably the right amount of time for the marriage and supper. Perhaps a month? (1260 days plus 30 days?)

I have always said that any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proved wrong.

However, as I study chapter 17, it seems to be a description of the 7 headed beast in chapter 13. Chapter 13 was more about the man, chapter 17 is more about his kingdom. However, that being said, at the place John has placed this chapter, right after the end of the 70th week, the Beast is still very much alive.

John wrote:
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

if you have noticed, most of the verbs in Revelation are of the Aorist variety that really shows no tense information at all. But occasionally John uses future tense verbs. I think he does this when he wants to show that the event will be future to where he is in his narrative timeline.

It seems then, that at this point in time, the ten nations has not yet come to destroy Israel, but that happens in chapter 18. And at this time Jesus has not yet returned. My point is, John's chronology is still correct. This chapter is right where it should be.

I am just pointing out (Remember the original talking point) that the book of Revelation OVERLAPS. Thus Rev. 17 is the Harlot being destroyed and since the Harlot is FALSE RELIGION, that has to happen at the same time the Anti-Christ makes his move against the Temple of God !! Use logic man. He comes against ALL RELIGIONS, because he DEMANDS TO BE WORSHIPED as the ONLY GOD !! He destroys Islam and all religions at this same time, thus it happens at the MID-WAY POINT, thus Rev. chapters 6 and 7.

The "harlot" is not exactly "false religion." Jerusalem the harlot: mystery Babylon that deceives the entire world with the Beast's variety of "false religion." At this time all other false religions will have been swallowed up and disappeared by the Beast. For example, Buddhists will choose to take the mark and be doomed or refuse the mark and lose their heads. And Jerusalem is not destroyed until chapter 18 as the ten nations come against her in the last "hour." It will be these ten nations that join in the battle of Armageddon.

Same with Rev. 18, that is only the PLAGUES OF GOD coming against Babylon. (Nations that come against Israel) and the Seal/Trumpets and Vials of God are happening LONG BEFORE Rev. 18, as a matter of fact they END in Rev. 16. IT IS DONE.

I agree: the 70th week is finished with the 7th vial. "It is done!"

Well lets just say you can't see what's clearly written.


No one asked anyone to throw it out, I wrote a whole exegesis on what Chapter 17 means. Again, I am saying that Revelation OVERLAPS. It is not a book that flows in sequence.

I hope you can start a thread and explain this "overlap."

 

[Revealing Times]

Revelation 16:19 reveals 3 things when the earthquake takes place
1) Jerusalem divided into 3 parts
2) the cities of the Gentiles collapsed
3) Babylon collapsed

1. Is correct. 2 is close, but its nor per se Gentiles, though it is. 3. Is not understood imho, Babylon is the Nations (ethos) that fell.

Most powers remember were akin to CITY STATES, Babylon/Rome and Carthage etc. It is probably more correct to say the Cities of the (ethos) or peoples not Nations.

ETHOS =
1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or
living together
1a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
2a) the human race
3) a race, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans,
Gentiles

So the "Cities of the Nations" is not, imho, the proper use. It would be the Cities of the Peoples that come against Israel, at Armageddon. DO YOU GET MY POINT ? This is why we can't trust translations in full, we must do our due diligence.

Restoring ancient Iraqi city of Babylon to former glory

If Saddam, when he was alive was able to rebuild on its ruins then don't knock the possibility of a city that may become a future tourist attraction

All is needed is a fund of money or some corporate giant who wishes to build there or perhaps someone will find resources such as gold or oil
that will make the land precious

It doesn't matter what Saddam wanted nor anyone else, because the Holy Scriptures say IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN !! That is why I keep telling you this:

A Judgment against Babylon
Isaiah 13:19 And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation; Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there, Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there. 21 But desert creatures will lie down there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.…

Jeremiah 51:29
So the land quakes and writhes, For the purposes of the LORD against Babylon stand, To make the land of Babylon A desolation without inhabitants.

Jeremiah 51:37
"Babylon will become a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, An object of horror and hissing, without inhabitants.

I don't just say thing I do not know brother. Gods Holy Word is NEVER WRONG. Babylon will never be again.

I understand what u are saying , but I'm sorry, I don't bye it.

The 10 kingdoms are gonna come against the whoredom of Babylon then accept the beast to worship a man as God and persecute Israel and God will destroy the cities of the nations as well as the armies that have gather on mt meggido

And the beast and false prophet will be the first to be cast into the land of fire

Why do you continue to think Babylon and the Harlot are one and the SAME ? It CAN NOT BE THE SAME.........CAN'T BE. The Kings in league with BEAST Destroy and Burn the Harlot in Rev. 17:16, which happens in Revelation chapter 6 and 7 (Midway point).......BUT.....The same Kings in Revelation chapter 18, CRY and LAMENT the Destruction of Babylon !!

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Do you see the difference ? Babylon and the Harlot are NOT THE SAME ENTITY !! The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION, and Babylon is the PEOPLES THAT COME AGAINST ISRAEL. The BEAST and his cronies, or their Cities/Countries/peoples. This is why the HARLOT rides the BEAST. The one is the FALSE RELIGIOUS side and the other is the FALSE GOVERNMENT SIDE............They are different entities.

Its not the WHOREDOM of Babylon per se. This Babylon (Anti-Christ and 10 Kings) hate the harlot, whereas all the other BEASTS loved the harlot, that is because they loved all of the FALSE RELIGIONS, and this last BEAST will demand to be worshiped as GOD........He wants no Religions, he wants to destroy the HARLOT (ALL RELIGIONS that are False Religions........he also wants to Destroy Christians.).

I believe Israel false messiah will rebuild the temple
"he who comes in his own name" that Jesus prophecied would come will rebuild greater Israel and there will be a false messianic age and Babylon will be rebuilt as well in the land of shinar and the final antichrist will be born in Babylon.... his name will be lucifer and he and his false prophet will seek to take over the already established messianic age

God will allow this man to rise up as punishment for their rebellion. Because they reject Jesus and sought to establish the messianic era by force..., perhaps the Zionist government will have a hand in it . A sort of self fulfilled prophecies

He who comes in his own name is not an end time event. And no one can prove it is. Israel never accepts a FALSE MESSIAH.

 

[Revealing Times]

I pretty much agreed up to this last point. I am convinced that the great wh**e Mystery Babylon is referring solely to the city of Jerusalem - but only during the time that the Antichrist and False prophet are deceiving the entire world from that city. After all, what they will do will make all previous deceptions seem insignificant.

The real city will be destroyed, but will be rebuilt. The Mystery Babylon that deceives will never live again.

Read this thread I started. It will give you a better, deeper understanding of my understanding, and conclusions, no use reposting it here:
Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

I don't think so. It will be the abomination that stops the sacrifices.

Its the Sacrifice and Oblation. An Oblation is akin to an HONORING or a TRIBUTE.......From an unused root meaning to apportion, that is, bestow; a donation; euphemistically tribute; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary):—gift, oblation, (meat) offering, present, sacrifice.

Our prayers to Jesus is just as id we were offering up a Sacrifice unto God. The word added in the verse, Oblation seems to point to a TRIBUTE as if Jesus was being honored. No doubt Daniel knew nothing about this in any detail, so the Sacrifices are still being offered, but its not the SAME SACRIFICE. Jesus death is our Sacrifice. It still takes away our sins. Reading the rest of the Scriptures tells us ISRAEL TURNS back to God before the Abomination of Desolation happens.

The Bible says they TURN before the Day of the Lord. Why would God protect them in the Wilderness for 1260 Days if they have NOT REPENTED ? They only flee because they have UNDERSTOOD JESUS' WARNING in Matthew. This is why they will not be deceived by the False Prophet, because Jesus has WARNED THEM....Not to go to the Desert or any Secret Chamber.........For I will come in the EASTERN SKIES.

Seven heads: Daniel tells us there were ten nations: the Beast takes out 3, leaving 7. I am convinced they are Muslim nations, every one.

The 10 Horns have nothing ( The LINK I gave you has all this in DETAIL)
to do with the Seven Headed Beast per se, except the make up ONE OF THE HEADS with the Anti-Christ, they are ONE KINGDOM, but the BEAST HIMSELF has the power, because they give their powers unto him. This is why there is not 11 Horns on the Seven Headed Beast as there is 11 horns in Daniel. The Little Horn is the Seventh Head........and the 10 horns are on top of his Head. Then you have the other Six Heads which are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.

The Beast will kill 3 but there will still be 10 Kingdoms. That means only that 3 Kings try to PULL BACK, and are destroyed. There is NO MUSLIM ANGLE save the Kings of the East. They are all Muslim Kingdoms who are enticed to fight against Israel but only after ISLAM has been Destroyed.

This is not true. Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial that ends the week. Jesus own words are that He comes "AFTER" "the tribulation of those days." There is no need to rearrange Revelation. John shows Jesus coming in chapter 19, AFTER those days of tribulation. He did say "immediately" after, so there will not be much time between chapter 16 and chapter 19. How much time? Probably the right amount of time for the marriage and supper. Perhaps a month? (1260 days plus 30 days?)

By your own definition then Jesus can NEVER RETURN, because the Bible tells us that if Jesus had not shortened those Days, NO FLESH would have been saved, meaning there is murder right up until Jesus return. You can not separate the TRIBULATION/TROUBLES from Jesus' coming back, you guys try to get way to technical, to prove a point. It means WHEN HE COMES, he is destroying all who caused the TROUBLES as well as bringing the last vestiges of troubles WITH HIM WHEN HE DESTROYS THE ANTI-CHRIST.

No one rearranges Revelation. It is just a fact that the book is not in sequential order. Rev. 16 ends Revelation as per this worlds Age as we know it. Rev. 17 happens around Rev. 6 and 7, Rev. 18 is the Judgments of God or Seals/Trumpets/Vials raining down on Babylon. Its obvious, but too many people want to stay with old out-dated thought processes.

Where does Jesus come ? Zechariah 14 says he comes to the Mt of Olives and DESTROYS THE NATIONS that have encamped against Israel, and Revelation 16 tells us where they are Gathered, Armageddon or MEGGIDO. Its the SAME EVENT MAN.

9 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

This is Jesus defeating the foes of Israel. Just like there is TWO CREATION stories in Genesis. We had the END...IT IS DONE....Then we got the Detail in Rev. 17 about HOW THE HARLOT (False Religion) was Destroyed (Rev. 6 and 7) and how Babylon False Gov.) was Destroyed by the Seals/Trumpets/Vials from Rev. chapters 6-16 and the we get the BATTLE of Rev. 16 in GREAT DETAIL in Rev 19. These are just facts. JUST LIKE IN Genesis 2, we get the CREATION STORY OF MAN, IN DETAIL. They just had a far different style of writing back then.

I have always said that any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology will be proved wrong.

However, as I study chapter 17, it seems to be a description of the 7 headed beast in chapter 13. Chapter 13 was more about the man, chapter 17 is more about his kingdom. However, that being said, at the place John has placed this chapter, right after the end of the 70th week, the Beast is still very much alive.

John wrote:
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Like I said, MY LINK, says all I can ever say about this.

The "harlot" is not exactly "false religion." Jerusalem the harlot: mystery Babylon that deceives the entire world with the Beast's variety of "false religion." At this time all other false religions will have been swallowed up and disappeared by the Beast. For example, Buddhists will choose to take the mark and be doomed or refuse the mark and lose their heads. And Jerusalem is not destroyed until chapter 18 as the ten nations come against her in the last "hour." It will be these ten nations that join in the battle of Armageddon.

There is no MYSTERY BABYLON...My link explains that. The Beast and Company DESTROY THE HARLOT. Its not the BEASTS RELIGION else he would have to destroy himself. The Billions murdered will be mostly Muslims. The Christians will be in Heaven.

I hope you can start a thread and explain this "overlap."

I could, but its so obvious.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I agree: the 70th week is finished with the 7th vial. "It is done!"

You need to educate your self on the origin of your Belief

Left Behind by the Jesuits - Scriptures Prove Secret Pre-tribulation Rapture is Anti-biblical

 

[iamlamad]

Why do you continue to think Babylon and the Harlot are one and the SAME ? It CAN NOT BE THE SAME.........CAN'T BE. The Kings in league with BEAST Destroy and Burn the Harlot in Rev. 17:16, which happens in Revelation chapter 6 and 7 (Midway point).......BUT.....The same Kings in Revelation chapter 18, CRY and LAMENT the Destruction of Babylon !!

I disagree. Why not just believe what John wrote?

Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Further, John tells us which "great city."

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

There has never been and never will be a city that deceives like this city of Jerusalem, while the Beast and False Prophet are there. They deceive the whole world.

Note: "the woman"
Rev, 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Make no mistake: the woman is Babylon and Babylon is the woman riding the Beast, and both refer to the city of Jerusalem.

"Burn the Harlot in Rev. 17:16, which happens in Revelation chapter 6 and 7 (Midway point)"

It seems you escape reality two ways here: first the midpoint is in chapter 11. This can easily be proven by seeing where in Revelation the woman flees. (Jesus told us they would flee after seeing the abomination.) Next, chapter 6 is the seals that MUST BE broken before any Trumpet can be sounded. After all, the seals are preventing the scroll from being opened to reveal the trumpets. The 7th seal is the offical opening of the 70th week, and the midpoint does not come until 3 1/2 years later in chapter 11, at the 7th trumpet.

 

[iamlamad]

You need to educate your self on the origin of your Belief

I need no education on that point. God spoke to me: I heard is voice and His words. He sent me to find "the exact midpoint clearly marked." After he told me how to find the midpoint, He said the entire 70th week was "clearly marked." it is marked by 7's. Believe it, for it is truth.
By the way, at the 7th vial, it is written, "it is done." Some translations say finished. What is finished? The 70th week.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said: ↑
I pretty much agreed up to this last point. I am convinced that the great wh**e Mystery Babylon is referring solely to the city of Jerusalem - but only during the time that the Antichrist and False prophet are deceiving the entire world from that city. After all, what they will do will make all previous deceptions seem insignificant.

The real city will be destroyed, but will be rebuilt. The Mystery Babylon that deceives will never live again.
Click to expand...
Read this thread I started. It will give you a better, deeper understanding of my understanding, and conclusions, no use reposting it here:
Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...and-the-seven-headed-beast-explained.7980377/

You begin on a false note: you disagree with what John wrote. John tells us that the woman, the harlot (whom God calls Babylon) is a CITY. Why would you disagree with God? Do you imagine He was joking?

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said: ↑
I don't think so. It will be the abomination that stops the sacrifices.
Its the Sacrifice and Oblation. An Oblation is akin to an HONORING or a TRIBUTE.......From an unused root meaning to apportion, that is, bestow; a donation; euphemistically tribute; specifically a sacrificial offering (usually bloodless and voluntary):—gift, oblation, (meat) offering, present, sacrifice.

Our prayers to Jesus is just as id we were offering up a Sacrifice unto God. The word added in the verse, Oblation seems to point to a TRIBUTE as if Jesus was being honored. No doubt Daniel knew nothing about this in any detail, so the Sacrifices are still being offered, but its not the SAME SACRIFICE. Jesus death is our Sacrifice. It still takes away our sins. Reading the rest of the Scriptures tells us ISRAEL TURNS back to God before the Abomination of Desolation happens.

The Bible says they TURN before the Day of the Lord. Why would God protect them in the Wilderness for 1260 Days if they have NOT REPENTED ? They only flee because they have UNDERSTOOD JESUS' WARNING in Matthew. This is why they will not be deceived by the False Prophet, because Jesus has WARNED THEM....Not to go to the Desert or any Secret Chamber.........For I will come in the EASTERN SKIES.

What did Daniel write?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

I hope you understand the "he" as the Beast of Rev. 13. If you don't we might as well quit now.
He, the man of sin, will cause the sacrifice to cease. HOW? Paul tells us:

2 Thes. 2
3 ...that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The moment he enters the Holy of Holies, the temple is descrated and the daily sacrifices must cease. The Temple must be cleansed before sacrifices can start again. But the Beast will not give them time to do that.

Why would God protect them? That is very simple: God has made promises to the Jews.

"Reading the rest of the Scriptures tells us ISRAEL TURNS back to God before the Abomination of Desolation happens."
Please show us. I have never found such a verse.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said: ↑
Seven heads: Daniel tells us there were ten nations: the Beast takes out 3, leaving 7. I am convinced they are Muslim nations, every one.
The 10 Horns have nothing ( The LINK I gave you has all this in DETAIL)
to do with the Seven Headed Beast per se, except the make up ONE OF THE HEADS with the Anti-Christ, they are ONE KINGDOM, but the BEAST HIMSELF has the power, because they give their powers unto him. This is why there is not 11 Horns on the Seven Headed Beast as there is 11 horns in Daniel. The Little Horn is the Seventh Head........and the 10 horns are on top of his Head. Then you have the other Six Heads which are Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome.

The Beast will kill 3 but there will still be 10 Kingdoms. That means only that 3 Kings try to PULL BACK, and are destroyed. There is NO MUSLIM ANGLE save the Kings of the East. They are all Muslim Kingdoms who are enticed to fight against Israel but only after ISLAM has been Destroyed.

Daniel 7
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

These ten have nothing to do with the 10 that throw in with the Beast for one hour, in my opinion.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said: ↑
This is not true. Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial that ends the week. Jesus own words are that He comes "AFTER" "the tribulation of those days." There is no need to rearrange Revelation. John shows Jesus coming in chapter 19, AFTER those days of tribulation. He did say "immediately" after, so there will not be much time between chapter 16 and chapter 19. How much time? Probably the right amount of time for the marriage and supper. Perhaps a month? (1260 days plus 30 days?)
Click to expand...
By your own definition then Jesus can NEVER RETURN, because the Bible tells us that if Jesus had not shortened those Days, NO FLESH would have been saved, meaning there is murder right up until Jesus return. You can not separate the TRIBULATION/TROUBLES from Jesus' coming back, you guys try to get way to technical, to prove a point. It means WHEN HE COMES, he is destroying all who caused the TROUBLES as well as bringing the last vestiges of troubles WITH HIM WHEN HE DESTROYS THE ANTI-CHRIST.

...

Where does Jesus come ? Zechariah 14 says he comes to the Mt of Olives and DESTROYS THE NATIONS that have encamped against Israel, and Revelation 16 tells us where they are Gathered, Armageddon or MEGGIDO. Its the SAME EVENT MAN.

9 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

This is Jesus defeating the foes of Israel. Just like there is TWO CREATION stories in Genesis. We had the END...IT IS DONE....Then we got the Detail in Rev. 17 about HOW THE HARLOT (False Religion) was Destroyed (Rev. 6 and 7) and how Babylon False Gov.) was Destroyed by the Seals/Trumpets/Vials from Rev. chapters 6-16 and the we get the BATTLE of Rev. 16 in GREAT DETAIL in Rev 19. These are just facts. JUST LIKE IN Genesis 2, we get the CREATION STORY OF MAN, IN DETAIL. They just had a far different style of writing back then.

I CAN separate the tribulation troubles from Christ's return, because THE BIBLE does. After all, are we not suppose to be following the bible?

Jesus does NOT shorten those days by His early return! He will shorten those days by pouring out the vials of His wrath. And yes, people WILL be being murdered right up until Jesus returns in chapter 19 - AFTER the 70th week has finished.

I don't get technical! I just follow what John tells us, with proper understanding.

No one rearranges Revelation. It is just a fact that the book is not in sequential order. Rev. 16 ends Revelation as per this worlds Age as we know it. Rev. 17 happens around Rev. 6 and 7, Rev. 18 is the Judgments of God or Seals/Trumpets/Vials raining down on Babylon. Its obvious, but too many people want to stay with old out-dated thought processes.

This is complete nonsense and you will not be able to prove it with scripture. It is at best human reasoning. The fact is, Revelation is in the proper order and you keep trying to rearrange it, showing us you don't understand John's chronology.

Get this straight: Rev 16 ends the 70th week! But time goes on and Jesus will soon after return. People are still alive in the world - even in Jerusalem which city will be burned.
Revelation 17 happens after the 7th vial had ended the week. But the first part of the chapter does describe the Beast's empire, which will probably be set up by the midpoint of the week. Revelation 18 is Jerusalem being destroyed. Many nations will descend on Israel for the battle of Armageddon. Chapter 18 shows us Jerusalem's destruction.

 

[iamlamad]

"There is no MYSTERY BABYLON"

Why bother continuing when you deny plain scripture?

 

[dfw69]

1. Is correct. 2 is close, but its nor per se Gentiles, though it is. 3. Is not understood imho, Babylon is the Nations (ethos) that fell.

Most powers remember were akin to CITY STATES, Babylon/Rome and Carthage etc. It is probably more correct to say the Cities of the (ethos) or peoples not Nations.

ETHOS =
1) a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or
living together
1a) a company, troop, swarm
2) a multitude of individuals of the same nature or genus
2a) the human race
3) a race, nation, people group
4) in the OT, foreign nations not worshipping the true God, pagans,
Gentiles

So the "Cities of the Nations" is not, imho, the proper use. It would be the Cities of the Peoples that come against Israel, at Armageddon. DO YOU GET MY POINT ? This is why we can't trust translations in full, we must do our due diligence.



It doesn't matter what Saddam wanted nor anyone else, because the Holy Scriptures say IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN !! That is why I keep telling you this:

A Judgment against Babylon
Isaiah 13:19 And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation; Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there, Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there. 21 But desert creatures will lie down there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.…

Jeremiah 51:29
So the land quakes and writhes, For the purposes of the LORD against Babylon stand, To make the land of Babylon A desolation without inhabitants.

Jeremiah 51:37
"Babylon will become a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, An object of horror and hissing, without inhabitants.

I don't just say thing I do not know brother. Gods Holy Word is NEVER WRONG. Babylon will never be again.



Why do you continue to think Babylon and the Harlot are one and the SAME ? It CAN NOT BE THE SAME.........CAN'T BE. The Kings in league with BEAST Destroy and Burn the Harlot in Rev. 17:16, which happens in Revelation chapter 6 and 7 (Midway point).......BUT.....The same Kings in Revelation chapter 18, CRY and LAMENT the Destruction of Babylon !!

Revelation 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Do you see the difference ? Babylon and the Harlot are NOT THE SAME ENTITY !! The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGION, and Babylon is the PEOPLES THAT COME AGAINST ISRAEL. The BEAST and his cronies, or their Cities/Countries/peoples. This is why the HARLOT rides the BEAST. The one is the FALSE RELIGIOUS side and the other is the FALSE GOVERNMENT SIDE............They are different entities.

Its not the WHOREDOM of Babylon per se. This Babylon (Anti-Christ and 10 Kings) hate the harlot, whereas all the other BEASTS loved the harlot, that is because they loved all of the FALSE RELIGIONS, and this last BEAST will demand to be worshiped as GOD........He wants no Religions, he wants to destroy the HARLOT (ALL RELIGIONS that are False Religions........he also wants to Destroy Christians.).



He who comes in his own name is not an end time event. And no one can prove it is. Israel never accepts a FALSE MESSIAH.

Will see .. peace

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I need no education on that point. God spoke to me: I heard is voice and His words. He sent me to find "the exact midpoint clearly marked." After he told me how to find the midpoint, He said the entire 70th week was "clearly marked." it is marked by 7's. Believe it, for it is truth.
By the way, at the 7th vial, it is written, "it is done." Some translations say finished. What is finished? The 70th week.

Revelation 17:4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

ever wonder what the cup is full of?

 

[iamlamad]

Revelation 17:4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

ever wonder what the cup is full of?

Why would I wonder when John wrote, "full of abominations and filthness of her fornication?"

What is the meaning? It is the false teaching coming from Jerusalem (while the Beast and False Prophet are there) SO EVIL they deceive the entire world. They are leading people to worship a false god. That is the abomination and the fornication.

 

[Revealing Times]

I disagree. Why not just believe what John wrote?

Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Further, John tells us which "great city."

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

I do believe what John Said. Which is why I posted Scriptures to prove Babylon and the Harlot are TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES. Now as to what John is saying in Revelation 17:18. These past BEAST GOVERNMENTS have always been COMBINED hence the Harlot rode the BEAST. Hence that great city is what ? What did the Angel tell John or show John n the Vision ? That the Harlot had BABYLON THE GREAT imprinted on her head. In other words she was ONE WITH the Babylonian type Governments that came against Israel. In other words every one of he BEASTS that came against Israel had FALSE/EVIL RELIGION at is core, none of them served the REAL/TRUE God !! They served DEVILS.

That GREAT CITY Represents all the Beasts, God called it the HEAD OF GOLD, so it was the purest form of Anti-God Government, pro Demonic worship. We know via the bible, which I quoted, Babylon will never be inhabited again, it is a METAPHOR. Babylon represents all the WICKED KINGDOMS, and the Harlot represents ALL THE DEVIL WORSHIP. Both go hand and hand until the end, when the Anti-Christ will DESTROY the Harlot, because there can be no Harlot ( Islam, Witchcraft, Buddhism. etc. etc. ) she has to be DESTROYED.....Thus Rev. 17:16, she is destroyed by the Kings. The same Kings Cry and Lament when BABYLON is Destroyed, because Babylon is the ONE WORLD GOV. SYSTEM, and the peoples that come against Israel. Get off of Babylon being a City, the Holy Bible say she will never be inhabited again. ITS METAPHORIC, like much of Revelation, you have to figure out the code.

 

[Revealing Times]

There has never been and never will be a city that deceives like this city of Jerusalem, while the Beast and False Prophet are there. They deceive the whole world.

Note: "the woman"
Rev, 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

Make no mistake: the woman is Babylon and Babylon is the woman riding the Beast, and both refer to the city of Jerusalem.

"Burn the Harlot in Rev. 17:16, which happens in Revelation chapter 6 and 7 (Midway point)"

Like I said, my views are in the link. The Woman IS NOT Jerusalem, that makes ZERO SENSE Brother. You take A verse somewhere that calls Israel/Jerusalem a prostitute, and that is done hundreds of time, and to you that means nothing else can be a Harlot, even though it is ALL FALSE RELIGION. The Harlot (Jerusalem) has never been linked with the BEAST SYSTEM, not can it be, a BEAST SYSTEM is a nation that Conquers Israel, Jerusalem can't Conquer itself. The Harlot and THE BEAST has to BE ONE !! And Jerusalem CAN NOT FIT.........CAN NOT FIT.

It seems you escape reality two ways here: first the midpoint is in chapter 11. This can easily be proven by seeing where in Revelation the woman flees. (Jesus told us they would flee after seeing the abomination.) Next, chapter 6 is the seals that MUST BE broken before any Trumpet can be sounded. After all, the seals are preventing the scroll from being opened to reveal the trumpets. The 7th seal is the offical opening of the 70th week, and the midpoint does not come until 3 1/2 years later in chapter 11, at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation is NOT IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER !! Like I said, there are a few places that cover the Mid-way point. The Seals are after the Anti-Christ takes over, so THAT IS the MID-WAY POINT. The Anti-Christ is BROUGHT FORTH in Seal 1, and starts Conquering in SEAL 2, that is the MIDWAY POINT.

The Rapture happens, that opens the 70th Week, not a Seal. The Anti-Christ comes forth and starts conquering in the Seals.

Rev. 17, 18 and 19 are at MIDWAY POINT also.

 

[Revealing Times]

Why bother continuing when you deny plain scripture?

Because I can READ PLAIN SCRIPTURE..........

REV. 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. (KJV)

The Meaning of the Woman and of the Beast (HCSB)
7 Then the angel said to me, “Why are you astonished? I will tell you the secret meaning of the woman and of the beast, with the seven heads and the 10 horns, that carries her.

So the ANGEL tells JOHN why did you wonder ? will tell you the SECRET/MYSTERY of the WOMAN and the BEAST........Then in verses 8-18 the Angel proceeds to Reveal the SECRET/MYSTERY to John, and its there for ALL TO SEE, yet they do not see it and still call it a MYSTERY. This is akin to Daniels visions, then an Angel explained his visions TO HIM, yet to you its still MYSTERY BABYLON, even though it isn't. God read what the Angel told Daniel. I explain it my thread I started on the Subject. WHY DOES EVERYONE SAY....Mystery Babylon ? Because they are not LISTENING VERY GOOD !!

 

[Revealing Times]

You begin on a false note: you disagree with what John wrote. John tells us that the woman, the harlot (whom God calls Babylon) is a CITY. Why would you disagree with God? Do you imagine He was joking?

Explained above.

Daniel 7
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

These ten have nothing to do with the 10 that throw in with the Beast for one hour, in my opinion.

WHAT ? The Little Horn and 10 Horns in Daniel is the 10 Horns and the Anti-Christ. COME ON. That's elementary.

I CAN separate the tribulation troubles from Christ's return, because THE BIBLE does. After all, are we not suppose to be following the bible?

NOT SO......The bible says Jesus comes and DESTROYS THE BEAST....The BEAST doesn't just stop destroying and killing, that makes NO SENSE, and you know it, Jesus has to com back to keep mankind from destroying himself. Time to admit that was a bad DEBATE POINT .

Jesus does NOT shorten those days by His early return! He will shorten those days by pouring out the vials of His wrath. And yes, people WILL be being murdered right up until Jesus returns in chapter 19 - AFTER the 70th week has finished.

I don't get technical! I just follow what John tells us, with proper understanding.

You just need to admit that the Trouble isn't over until Jesus comes back. When Jesus comes back he stops the troubles once he destroys the trouble makers. I will not even debate this point further, it is baseless.

This is complete nonsense and you will not be able to prove it with scripture. It is at best human reasoning. The fact is, Revelation is in the proper order and you keep trying to rearrange it, showing us you don't understand John's chronology.

If you can't see the obvious, that's on you.

Get this straight: Rev 16 ends the 70th week! But time goes on and Jesus will soon after return. People are still alive in the world - even in Jerusalem which city will be burned.
Revelation 17 happens after the 7th vial had ended the week. But the first part of the chapter does describe the Beast's empire, which will probably be set up by the midpoint of the week. Revelation 18 is Jerusalem being destroyed. Many nations will descend on Israel for the battle of Armageddon. Chapter 18 shows us Jerusalem's destruction.

Rev. 17, 18 and 19 all happen before the ending of the 16th Chapter, except where Jesus throws the Anti-Christ and False Prophet into HELL. You arguing the same point over and over doesn't change it. If that's your view, that's your view, you know mine, why rehash it ?

 

[Revealing Times]

What did Daniel write?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease...

I hope you understand the "he" as the Beast of Rev. 13. If you don't we might as well quit now.
He, the man of sin, will cause the sacrifice to cease. HOW? Paul tells us:

2 Thes. 2
3 ...that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

He is the Anti-Christ. What point was I making ? That Israel was SERVING JESUS by the time the Abomination of Desolation happens. Him putting a stop to the Sacrifices doesn't have to mean Animal Sacrifices, and notice, Daniel adds the word OBLATION, as in a TRIBUTE to someone. We offer up Jesus as our Sacrifice DAILY for our sins. My point was/is, Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah before the Anti-Christ takes over Jerusalem, that is why they HEED Jesus' words and FLEE to the Wilderness and why God protects them in the Wilderness. Thus they never, never serve a FALSE MESSIAH !!

The moment he enters the Holy of Holies, the temple is descrated and the daily sacrifices must cease. The Temple must be cleansed before sacrifices can start again. But the Beast will not give them time to do that.

Why would God protect them? That is very simple: God has made promises to the Jews.

"Reading the rest of the Scriptures tells us ISRAEL TURNS back to God before the Abomination of Desolation happens." .
Please show us. I have never found such a verse.

If they were sacrificing Animals, that would be an ABOMINATION. That's the POINT...... Jesus is accepted as the Messiah before the Anti-Christ defiles the TEMPLE, thus it goes from Jesus being worshiped in the TEMPLE to the Anti-Christ placing an IMAGE of Himself in the TEMPLE. Thus the TEMPLE is DEFILED. You can't defile that which is already defiled, id SACRIFICES were being offered when Jesus has already paid the price, that would be a defilement in itself.

Malachi 4:5-6 and all of Zechariah 12 and 13. I have only posted it here 100 times.

 

[Revealing Times]

Why would I wonder when John wrote, "full of abominations and filthness of her fornication?"

What is the meaning? It is the false teaching coming from Jerusalem (while the Beast and False Prophet are there) SO EVIL they deceive the entire world. They are leading people to worship a false god. That is the abomination and the fornication.

Actually that's a picture of Daniel chapter 5, GO READ IT.....The Cups and the Kings of Babylon defiling Gods HOLY TEMPLE CUPS....Then God says MENE, MENE, TEKEL, your Kingdom has been taken from you this day.