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Point #16 in your OP! Perhaps you owe Skywriting an apology.
No, I don't - he ripped that statement out of context, but I will overlook it for now.
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Point #16 in your OP! Perhaps you owe Skywriting an apology.
Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Sarcasm does not make an argument valid.Indeed. Hell is especially 404 when we get to the writings of the apostles. Hell is such a terrible place to end up in that, none of the apostles ever talk much about it. It's almost like, either the apostles were totally unaware of any such a place, or, they just left it out of all their letters so Christians after them could have all of the fun threatening people with it.
What does "every knee will bow" mean? Do you honestly think that all mankind will willingly, humbly bow before God?But it doesn't seem to matter how many verses you cite about, every knee bowing (Philippians 2:10), everything in heaven and earth being subdued to Christ (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:28), Jesus being the Saviour of the world (John 4:42, 1 John 4:14, 1 Timothy 4:10), God reconciling all things to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:20). None of that matters because they can point to a few verses (usually in symbolic passages) that have the word "fire" in them and then say "See? God will not reconcile all things to Him, Christ isn't the Saviour of the world, He won't subdue all things to Him, every knee won't bow; because this verse has the word 'fire' in it; and oh, this verse says 'punishment' so you see? Everyone burns in horrific suffering for all of time except for me! That's the good news! None of the apostles said any of this because they left it all to me to say!" and you can just reply, "Truly you have a dizzying intellect" and leave it at that.
God does love us that much, but the rest of what you've posted, perhaps in haste, is only part of the theology,imo.
Jesus is the Word, which was God and was with God at the beginning of creation ("Let US"...) from the foundation of the earth....and it was God's (Triune) plan all along for Jesus to take on flesh, live as that lowly (Humble) man, die that miserable death... AND conquer death and hell (Revelation 1:18) AND resurrect to a new body glorified AND ascend into heaven where He sits at God the Father's right hand.
Without the conquering death and hell (notice they are separate entities) and resurrecting, we would all still be lost in our sin.
For two years' study, which I commend you for, how much was in the original languages? Someone in the thread said they didn't pay any attention to the Hebrew "stories" and I beg to say that without a good understanding of God's language--the Hebrew language--you cannot fully understand God's Word.
This above statement I believe to be true especially if you are reading and studying in English. English is a limited language. It's almost as though a lazy language which lumps all manner of emotions and views together in as few words as possible. This is as opposed to Greek which has a word for nearly every nuance of a meaning, and to Hebrew which is more like playing 5D chess. Not only are there some 13 different verb conjugations,( and plenty of verb categories) there are numbers and symbols represented within the language which when all pieced together give a very detailed description of a matter. English pales in comparison.
Yes, there are different names in English for what we all might think of as "hell". There are different levels and degrees of torture, as described in God's Word. Surely you did find these in your studies.
May I suggest, since you do give testimony to being a believer, that you begin with faith and belief that God's Word is true and on that premise seek His truth regarding what you wish to learn, such as about hell.
Why would you find a need for a Savior if there is nothing from which to be saved, I wonder.
Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Sarcasm does not make an argument valid.
What does "every knee will bow" mean? Do you honestly think that all mankind will willingly, humbly bow before God?
Romans 16:20Anyone can make scripture say almost they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done.
(20) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1 Corinthians 15:25
(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:27
(27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Ephesians 1:22
(22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Hebrews 2:8
(8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 10:13
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
I just a quick search because I know for a fact hell does exist, and found that hell is often confused with the lake of fire according to this website http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html. Hell is referring to sheol (hades in greek) which is a place were souls go once they die the first death, referred to in Revelation 2:11. The second death is eternal, not the first death, and this is where the lake of fire exists as a place of eternal punishment and separation from God. This is where the confusion lies because hell is often mistranslated as to be the lake of fire but how can that be if on the final day death and hell are cast into the lake of fire according to revelation 20:14. So while you may have identified the confusion, to say that a place of eternal separation of God and punishment doesn't exist is blasphemy. Your right there is no connection between Satan and hell but there is between Satan and the Lake of fire. God warns of the second death, where there is the lake of fire.
Also points 2, 3, 12, 13, 14, 15 you made is your opinion. Hell is a real place, and the lake of fire is a real place, but they are not the same.
If any of my points have Bible verses attached, they are likely not my opinion, IMHO. How do you know Hell is a real place - been there lately, have you?
The real blasphemy is believing and teaching that the wicked go to eternal, conscious torment in Hell. Why? Look at Genesis 2 - God made man by breathing the Spirit of Life into a non-living body. Thus, while you are alive, you carry this Spirit, which I suppose to be one of the Seven Spirits of God. To be conscious in Hell, or anywhere else, you MUST have this Spirit in you. Therefore, ECT in Hell means God's Spirit is down there too, and that, my friend, puts Hell theology on very dangerous ground.
While I concede that we all have biases to a greater or lesser degree. To counter any biases I may have I refer to Hebrew and Greek grammars and lexicons and consult credible, verifiable, historical sources. Rejecting those sources out-of-hand as "rabbinical traditions" does not disprove them and reflects some bias of your own.You are also filtering your OT understanding through centuries of rabbinical tradition, aren't you? Layers of Christian theology versus layers of Jewish theology - it's difficult enough to dig out the truth, without posters who won't admit their biases...
I know what you are implying, and in fact I kept my study tools very simple, but I did use interlinear texts when needed. No, I am not proficient with Hebrew or Greek. However, I found that Hell is such an unworthy opponent, that I did not need to be a linguist to demonstrate that it is a 404. As I continued, I began to suspect trickery on the part of the KJV translators, but nailing that down was not my main goal, just a By The Way.
You tell me to begin with faith, etc...and then ask what our Savior is for? Do you not know that He came to save us from our sins, and from death? I never saw a statement that Jesus the Christ came to save us from Hell.
In fact, it may surprise you to learn that Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else in the Bible. He told us that God is absolutely holy and just, and some day He will judge all evil. Think about that a moment. Do you honestly believe that tyrants who were responsible for the deaths of millions... or parents who abused or killed their children... or people who lashed out in hate at people of another race... or terrorists who killed countless innocent lives will never be judged? Do you honestly believe God will simply shrug His shoulders (so to speak) and ignore their evil? Of course He won't.
Jesus called hell a place of outer darkness where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12). The Bible calls it a place of "gloomy dungeons" and "torment" (2 Peter 2:4; Luke 16:23). Most of all, hell will be the exact opposite of heaven, because its inhabitants will be separated from God forever.
Jesus describes hell as a reality and He spoke on hell three times as much as He ever did on heaven, thereby signifying the importance on believing in such a place. Hell is like a fiery furnace and there will be weeping (with anger and/or eternal regret) and gnashing of teeth (in anger and/or in pain). This weeping and gnashing of teeth is mentioned twice so as to emphasize the reality of hell.
If any of my points have Bible verses attached, they are likely not my opinion, IMHO. How do you know Hell is a real place - been there lately, have you?
The real blasphemy is believing and teaching that the wicked go to eternal, conscious torment in Hell. Why? Look at Genesis 2 - God made man by breathing the Spirit of Life into a non-living body. Thus, while you are alive, you carry this Spirit, which I suppose to be one of the Seven Spirits of God. To be conscious in Hell, or anywhere else, you MUST have this Spirit in you. Therefore, ECT in Hell means God's Spirit is down there too, and that, my friend, puts Hell theology on very dangerous ground.
In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.If any of my points have Bible verses attached, they are likely not my opinion, IMHO. How do you know Hell is a real place - been there lately, have you?
The real blasphemy is believing and teaching that the wicked go to eternal, conscious torment in Hell. Why? Look at Genesis 2 - God made man by breathing the Spirit of Life into a non-living body. Thus, while you are alive, you carry this Spirit, which I suppose to be one of the Seven Spirits of God. To be conscious in Hell, or anywhere else, you MUST have this Spirit in you. Therefore, ECT in Hell means God's Spirit is down there too, and that, my friend, puts Hell theology on very dangerous ground.
When have I not quoted scripture? Not selective at all I quoted every verse which speaks of God's enemies being placed under the the feet of Jesus. A practice in that culture was when a enemy was defeated the conquered king is brought before the conqueror, made to kneel and the victorious king would put his foot on the back of the neck of prisoner. Every knee will bow, some in willing submission and some by force.I'm glad to see you quoting the Bible, but your selections look fairly selective as well - and no context.
Logical fallacy, argument from silence. Sarcasm does not make an argument valid.
What does "every knee will bow" mean? Do you honestly think that all mankind will willingly, humbly bow before God?
Romans 16:20
(20) And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1 Corinthians 15:25
(25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:27
(27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
Ephesians 1:22
(22) And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Hebrews 2:8
(8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Hebrews 1:13
(13) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Hebrews 10:13
(13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Anyone can make scripture say almost they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context as you have done.
Right, like, you were His enemy and He put you under His foot: Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21, notice how you were His enemy, but He reconciled you to God. Just like scripture says: Colossians 1:20-21: notice the clear phrase "all things" "in earth" and "in heaven": so it's written again: 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: notice not just reconciling you (you're not special) but "the world" by which we know: 1 Timothy 4:10
But for some reason many professing Christians just love to think they're special, and God won't do for others what He did for them. Even when God says He can, and promises He will. So which is it, universal reconciliation doesn't mean what it says; or, suffer in fire for all of time doesn't mean what it, doesn't even say? It's always odd that some Christians absolutely reject any idea of universal reconciliation (which is clearly taught), but adamnatly cling to the idea of people suffering forever unreconciled (which is not clearly taught at all). It's backward. But, I suppose this is the way it is supposed to be for now. Isaiah 59:14
How does any of this refute my previous post?Right, like, you were His enemy and He put you under His foot: Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21, notice how you were His enemy, but He reconciled you to God. Just like scripture says: Colossians 1:20-21: notice the clear phrase "all things" "in earth" and "in heaven": so it's written again: 2 Corinthians 5:18-19: notice not just reconciling you (you're not special) but "the world" by which we know: 1 Timothy 4:10
How does any of this refute my previous post?
Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
When will the words of Jesus change to "Everyone shall enter into the kingdom of heaven whether they say Lord, Lord or not?" When will the words of Jesus "I never knew you" change to "Now I know you?
Listen, I know as well as you that history is full of people that have used bible verses to justify there actions and beliefs, doesn't make it right. Your conclusions is a way of trying to explain away a place of eternal torment and seperation from God. I know hell is a real place because the bible says so, and I know the lake of fire is a real place because Jesus says so. Gensis two says that man became a living being in the RSVCE which is used by most scholars, and the NIV, and it says man became a living soul in the KJV. This is not the same as a spirit. IN fact paul says the first adam was made a living soul, in 1 corinthians 15:45 but the second Adam (Jesus Christ) was made a quickening spirit. So souls were made by God, and after the first death they go to hell, followed by the second death.
I think sarcasm isn't good especially for such a serious subject. You are defying the very Word of God with your denial of a place called "hell". If you cannot believe the Word of God to be totally true, then upon what do you base the assurance of your salvation?
As for your above comment, Scripture tells us in Psalm 139 "whither shall I flee from Your Spirit" ? verse 8 says, 'If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."
God is Omnipresent. To me, this means that those who say hell/sheol is absence of the Presence of God might mean that without His comfort instead? Surely part of being in torment is to see others in peace imo.