Hell is a 404

[JackRT]

As human beings we are bounded in both time and place. That is to say, we are finite. On the other hand we think of God as completely unbounded. God exists outside of both time and space. God is present everywhere and at all times. That is to say, God is infinite. This is the orthodox theistic understanding of God. To compare the finite to the infinite is beyond our human comprehension. Even to compare a grain of sand to Mount Everest falls far, far, far short. All of this brings up a number of questions in my mind.

The first question being “How is it even possible for a finite creature to offend an infinite God?” Could a grain of sand offend Mount Everest?

The second question being “If it were possible for the finite to offend the infinite, would the infinite punishment of a finite creature be just?” I will attempt to craft an analogy. You are in a park enjoying a picnic lunch when you glance down and notice an ant crawling across your sandwich. You are offended. How do you react? You have a number of options. You could ignore the ant. You could brush the ant away. You could move to a different location. You could kill the ant. You could kill the entire ant colony. You could capture the ant and confine it and proceed to torture it for several weeks until it finally dies. That last option is quite inadequate as a comparison to hell because hell is infinite in duration whereas the ant can only be tortured for a finite length of time.

To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributatory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of God. I completely reject the concept of hell as it is traditionally understood in most Christian churches.

 

[Lazarus Short]

As human beings we are bounded in both time and place. That is to say, we are finite. On the other hand we think of God as completely unbounded. God exists outside of both time and space. God is present everywhere and at all times. That is to say, God is infinite. This is the orthodox theistic understanding of God. To compare the finite to the infinite is beyond our human comprehension. Even to compare a grain of sand to Mount Everest falls far, far, far short. All of this brings up a number of questions in my mind.


The first question being “How is it even possible for a finite creature to offend an infinite God?” Could a grain of sand offend Mount Everest?


The second question being “If it were possible for the finite to offend the infinite, would the infinite punishment of a finite creature be just?” I will attempt to craft an analogy. You are in a park enjoying a picnic lunch when you glance down and notice an ant crawling across your sandwich. You are offended. How do you react? You have a number of options. You could ignore the ant. You could brush the ant away. You could move to a different location. You could kill the ant. You could kill the entire ant colony. You could capture the ant and confine it and proceed to torture it for several weeks until it finally dies. That last option is quite inadequate as a comparison to hell because hell is infinite in duration whereas the ant can only be tortured for a finite length of time.


To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributatory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of God. I completely reject the concept of hell as it is traditionally understood in most Christian churches.

Exactly! Keep in mind that God's Justice involved sending His Only Son here to the Earth, to live as a lowly man and die a miserable death. God loves us THAT much!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Exactly! Keep in mind that God's Justice involved sending His Only Son here to the Earth, to live as a lowly man and die a miserable death. God loves us THAT much!

This is an excellent starting point ... See everything through the Gospel and everything changes.

 

[Der Alte]

I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. ....
24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

When one reads the Bible , or any other writing, with assumptions/presuppositions they will find only what supports those assumptions/presuppositions.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. So if this place is 404 it was 404 long before Christianity. I guess the Jew misunderstood their own Hebrew scriptures.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
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The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/ ​

 

[Lazarus Short]

When one reads the Bible , or any other writing, with assumptions/presuppositions they will find only what supports those assumptions/presuppositions.

Since you begin your discourse with the above, which assumes/presumes that I did just that, (and I know different) I knew the rest was not worth reading. At least, unlike most folks, I stated my biases up front, like everyone else on this forum should. In point of fact, I did find a few verses in my 200+ page manuscript which did support damnationism or annihilationism, and admitted as much. That being so, I am interested in what the Bible has to say on the matter, not Jewish sources.

 

[smithed64]

Hell is one of those subjects that makes people uncomfortable. We hear stories of hell being a place of fire, demons, and endless torment. Throughout history, many authors have written about it--Dante's Inferno, for example. Western culture is very familiar with the concept. Even Hollywood has made it the subject of many movies. Whatever the context, whatever the belief, hell is definitely taught in the Bible. But even the doctrine of hell is not without its controversy. Some say it is only the grave with no consciousness. Others say it is a place of correction and punishment that is not eternal. Others say it is an endless agonizing punishment in fire. Whichever it is, hell is the total absence of the favor of God.

The words associated with Hell
Gehenna
In the OT the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom,' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:35).1 This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.

Hades
This word only occurs in the NT ten times and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23. The other six occur in Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."2 In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is the place of the conscious dead who are wicked.

Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.3 It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30, 33; Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13).

Is Hell Eternal Conscious Torment?
There are some Christian groups and many cults that deny the idea that hell, in the general sense, means eternal, conscious punishment. Some maintain that God's eternal punishment is annihilation or non-existence. Others say it is temporal, and that eventually all will be saved out of hell. Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never punish people in eternal torment. We agree that God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6) and eternal (Psalm 90:2; 1 Tim. 1:17 ). God punishes the evildoer (Isaiah 11:13), and this punishment will be eternal. But the question remains, is this eternal punishment conscious or not?

There are verses that can be interpreted to support the idea that the dead are not conscious after death: (Ecc. 9:5--the dead know nothing4 and Psalm 146:4--their thoughts perish--are good examples.) Other verses compare the dead to sleep: Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:1-6; 1 Thess. 4:13, etc. But these latter verses are merely comparing the similarity between the appearance of the dead and the appearance of someone sleeping.

The Dead are Conscious After Death
The wicked descend alive into Sheol
Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire
Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment
Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29, 30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man
In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then if it is a parable, what is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

Conclusion
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt. 5:29-30).

This is just in response to number 1 on your list. Just because it isn't mentioned in the creation listing, doesn't mean that He didn't create it. He doesn't mention rats, specifically does He, nor did he mention the platypus, he didn't mention a lot of species that He created specifically, doesnt' mean He didn't create them.

 

[smithed64]

The real conclusions of Hell

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”

Already answered this one. Post #26 on Hell is 404 thread.

2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10, 12, and 18,21,25,31. .

Again, just because He doesn’t mention it, doesn’t mean He didn’t create it. And beings He did create Hell, it will be perfect torment.

3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13. .

Your right, God created everything, so everything belongs to Him. Satan is just around for a season. His time will come.

4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6. .

Genesis 2:9 He creates what is pleasant to the sight, good for food, the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Yep, He did that.

Isaiah 45:7, He forms light, creates darkness: He makes peace and created evil: the Lord do all these things.

8. He also created righteousness

12. He made the earth, created man upon it, He’s commanded the host of the heavens

If God created all things, and does all these things. Then it would stand to reason that he created Hell also.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9. .

Your right, these scriptures back each other up and show that Satan isn’t in Hell, yet. Yet being the word to remember. He roams to and fro upon the earth. He has no dominion over it, Because Christ died and rose again, taking the keys to Death, hell and the grave with Him. Satan, just goes about doing His thing. He doesn’t make people sin. He just makes it look good enough that we do it, not telling the whole story. Remember He is the father of liars.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28. .

Yeah, he is speaking about Tyrus. The description given starting ver 12 to 19 gives a description of someone other than Tyrus for simple reasons. 1. How could he been in the Garden of Eden, Tyrus that is, since God moved it? 2. I’m quite certain Tyrus was a man, he didn’t have a musical way about him, he may have had precious stones to gird around Him, but the figure that God is speaking about here in v. 13, it more than just baubles.3. Tyrus, couldn’t have been on the mountain of God walking up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Why? Because first He would have had to die, second, because He was a terrible person and extremely sinful, he wouldn’t have entered into heaven in the first place, Third, if he did make it to the mount, he wouldn’t survived anyway, because no man can see God and live. 4. Again v 15, shows it couldn’t be Tyrus, because God says that whomever he is speaking about was perfect in his ways from the day he was created…Tyrus was a man, born with sin, not perfect in anyway. 5. V16 He is kicked out of heaven this anointed cherub, now don’t go thinking of some fat little angel wearing a diaper. Cherubs didn’t look like that. They were able to cover things with their wings they were so large. 6. Vainity and pride was the sin that had Him cast out.

7. V.18 talks about Hell. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring the to ashes uon the earth In the sight of all them that behold thee.

Now go read Revelation 20 and this prophecy of satan given here in Ezekiel, is fulfilled in Revelation 20.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.

Your right and wrong. Yeah, he warns of death and of Hell.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I’ve shown other scriptures to this in the first post.

Gonna take a break here, will be back later.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Hell is one of those subjects that makes people uncomfortable. We hear stories of hell being a place of fire, demons, and endless torment. Throughout history, many authors have written about it--Dante's Inferno, for example. Western culture is very familiar with the concept. Even Hollywood has made it the subject of many movies. Whatever the context, whatever the belief, hell is definitely taught in the Bible. But even the doctrine of hell is not without its controversy. Some say it is only the grave with no consciousness. Others say it is a place of correction and punishment that is not eternal. Others say it is an endless agonizing punishment in fire. Whichever it is, hell is the total absence of the favor of God.

The words associated with Hell
Gehenna
In the OT the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom,' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:35).1 This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.

Hades
This word only occurs in the NT ten times and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23. The other six occur in Acts 2:27, 31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."2 In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is the place of the conscious dead who are wicked.

Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.3 It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30, 33; Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13).

Is Hell Eternal Conscious Torment?
There are some Christian groups and many cults that deny the idea that hell, in the general sense, means eternal, conscious punishment. Some maintain that God's eternal punishment is annihilation or non-existence. Others say it is temporal, and that eventually all will be saved out of hell. Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never punish people in eternal torment. We agree that God is love (1 John 4:8), but He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33; 2 Thess. 1:6) and eternal (Psalm 90:2; 1 Tim. 1:17 ). God punishes the evildoer (Isaiah 11:13), and this punishment will be eternal. But the question remains, is this eternal punishment conscious or not?

There are verses that can be interpreted to support the idea that the dead are not conscious after death: (Ecc. 9:5--the dead know nothing4 and Psalm 146:4--their thoughts perish--are good examples.) Other verses compare the dead to sleep: Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:1-6; 1 Thess. 4:13, etc. But these latter verses are merely comparing the similarity between the appearance of the dead and the appearance of someone sleeping.

The Dead are Conscious After Death
The wicked descend alive into Sheol
Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33 So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Thrown into the lake of Fire
Rev. 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment
Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29, 30.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9 "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word "eternal" in both places is "aionios" which means 1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2) without beginning; 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word "punishment" is the word "kolasis" and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering--'to punish, punishment.'"5

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Thrown into the lake of Fire
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man
In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.

Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question is then if it is a parable, what is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable, what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.

Conclusion
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.

Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell." (Matt. 5:29-30).

This is just in response to number 1 on your list. Just because it isn't mentioned in the creation listing, doesn't mean that He didn't create it. He doesn't mention rats, specifically does He, nor did he mention the platypus, he didn't mention a lot of species that He created specifically, doesnt' mean He didn't create them.

As I have already explained, "hell" the word is certainly in some Bibles (not all), but for complete understanding, you must discern the word it was translated from. For instance, Jesus in Matthew 5 and other places, used the word "gehenna," a real place in the real world, not "hell," a word not spoken in that time and place. In my view, He was simply warning people to act right, obey the Law, keep their body parts and get on with their lives. Otherwise, it was give in to evil tendencies, commit a crime, get executed and end up having your body miss a decent burial, to burn with the garbage instead. Better to lose a hand or eye than to end up like that! It makes perfect sense.

Sorry, my point #1 is beyond question. God never painted His creation with a brush fine enough to delineate rats or platypusses. We see Heaven & Earth paired together many, many times in the Bible, with Hell never included. As I said, once you ferret out the theological trickery the KJV translators had to use to comply with church doctrine, the Bible is quite silent on the subject of Hell. There is just no getting around it.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hell is separation from God

Correct. It is a place for the unrepentant spirit, not a created place.
If not with God then you are in hell. Similar to being on earth today.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yeah, he is speaking about Tyrus. The description given starting ver 12 to 19 gives a description of someone other than Tyrus for simple reasons. 1. How could he been in the Garden of Eden, Tyrus that is, since God moved it? 2. I’m quite certain Tyrus was a man, he didn’t have a musical way about him, he may have had precious stones to gird around Him, but the figure that God is speaking about here in v. 13, it more than just baubles.3. Tyrus, couldn’t have been on the mountain of God walking up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Why? Because first He would have had to die, second, because He was a terrible person and extremely sinful, he wouldn’t have entered into heaven in the first place, Third, if he did make it to the mount, he wouldn’t survived anyway, because no man can see God and live. 4. Again v 15, shows it couldn’t be Tyrus, because God says that whomever he is speaking about was perfect in his ways from the day he was created…Tyrus was a man, born with sin, not perfect in anyway. 5. V16 He is kicked out of heaven this anointed cherub, now don’t go thinking of some fat little angel wearing a diaper. Cherubs didn’t look like that. They were able to cover things with their wings they were so large. 6. Vainity and pride was the sin that had Him cast out.

This is why the prince of Tyre is not Satan:

Ezekiel 26 & 27 had been all about the literal city of Tyre and the bad fate God had in store for it. Chapter 28 is about the prince of the same literal city, and there is no subject break until toward the end of that chapter.

God says, “…thou art a man and not God…” (verse 2) - but if this prince was really Satan, don’t you think God would have said so? No – it’s a literal city, a literal prince, and a man at that.

Verse 8: “They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die…”. The previous verse speaks of terrible strangers who draw the sword against this prince, but Satan cannot be taken down with literal swords, as he is a spirit being.

Verse 13: “Thou hast been in Eden…”. This does not mean that the prince of Tyre was in the garden of Eden with Adam and Eve – as ever, it’s all in the context. See 27:23: “Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad were thy merchants.” Eden is treated as a literal country like any other literal country of the time. For more on this subject, see the books of David Rohl especially Legend. However, do not think that I agree with all of Rohl’s conclusions.

In view of all the above I must confess that I find 28:14, which is the crux of the whole Satan argument, to be a puzzle, but I’m not going to set one verse against the context of three chapters of text.

Not only was the prince of Tyre in Eden, but God, in Chapter 31 personifies Assyria as a great tree, “…so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.” (verse 9). We see here Eden again, but it is more difficult to make a whole nation out to be Satan, so this gets ignored as a proof. The chapter goes on to speak of the death of the great tree of Assyria, and we have the usual words so often associated with “hell,” such as “delivered unto death,” “nether parts of the earth,” “the pit,” “the grave” and “the deep.” In verse 15, “the grave” is CCR footnoted as “Or sheol, hell.” Then in verse 16 we do see “hell,” but it is CCR footnoted as “Or sheol.” This inconsistency hides a dishonest translation and theological sleight of hand.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Correct. It is a place for the unrepentant spirit, not a created place.
If not with God then you are in hell. Similar to being on earth today.

Hold it - where, EXACTLY, did I say this?

"Lazarus Short said: ↑
Hell is separation from God"

Lazarus Short does not even believe that. You will either point out where I said it, and apologize if you can' find it, or I will report your misquote to a Mod.

 

[Der Alte]

Since you begin your discourse with the above, which assumes/presumes that I did just that, (and I know different) I knew the rest was not worth reading. At least, unlike most folks, I stated my biases up front, like everyone else on this forum should. In point of fact, I did find a few verses in my 200+ page manuscript which did support damnationism or annihilationism, and admitted as much. That being so, I am interested in what the Bible has to say on the matter, not Jewish sources.

Since you began this discourse with hand waving and pooh poohing, the rest doesn't merit reading.
A lot of folks make the claim they are only interested in what the Bible says but unless they have a Jewish mindset, and most don't, they will only know "what the Bible says" as filtered through 2000 +/- years of western thinking. How can we understand the OT as the ancient Jews understood it, after all it was written to them? How can we claim we're only "interested in what the Bible says" if we ignore how the native Hebrew speaking Jews understood what those scriptures say. And if we ignore how Jesus taught those scripture to those same Jews.

 

[Der Alte]

Hold it - where, EXACTLY, did I say this?
"Lazarus Short said: ↑
Hell is separation from God"
Lazarus Short does not even believe that. You will either point out where I said it, and apologize if you can' find it, or I will report your misquote to a Mod.

Point #16 in your OP! Perhaps you owe Skywriting an apology.

 

[Der Alte]

As I have already explained, "hell" the word is certainly in some Bibles (not all), but for complete

understanding, you must discern the word it was translated from. For instance, Jesus in Matthew 5 and other

places, used the word "gehenna," a real place in the real world, not "hell," a word not spoken in

that time and place. In my view, He was simply warning people to act right, obey the Law, keep

their body parts and get on with their lives. Otherwise, it was give in to evil tendencies, commit a

crime, get executed and end up having your body miss a decent burial, to burn with the garbage

instead. Better to lose a hand or eye than to end up like that! It makes perfect sense.

If might make perfect sense if one ignores all the evidence and the fact that the very Jews Jesus was talking to believed in a place of unending fiery punishment and they called it both Gae Hinnom [valley of Hinnom] and sheol and there is no documentary or archaeological evidence that the valley of gehinnom was ever used for burning garbage or bodies.

Sorry, my point #1 is beyond question. God never painted His creation with a brush fine enough to delineate rats

or platypusses. We see Heaven & Earth paired together many, many times in the Bible, with Hell

never included. As I said, once you ferret out the theological trickery the KJV translators had to use to

comply with church doctrine, the Bible is quite silent on the subject of Hell. There is just no getting around it.

Jesus said that Gehenna was a place where the fire was not extinguished and the worm did not die at least 2 times. And Jesus was not talking about the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem because there is no documentary or archaeological evidence that that valley was ever used as a burning garbage dump where bodies were burned. I have posted the evidence a number of times yet this internet rumor keeps being posted as fact.

 

[dqhall]

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”

John the Baptist was a preacher dressed in cheap clothes. He had to forage for locusts and wild honey as he did not draw a large salary. People were walking for a day or more to go listen to him.

He preached in Matthew 3:7 (WEB)

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for his baptism, he said to them, "You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore bring forth fruit worthy of repentance! 9Don't think to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10"Even now the axe lies at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn't bring forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.

The tree that did not produce edible fruit in sufficient quantities was chopped down. The wood was used as lumber or fuel for cooking/heating fires. The dead tree was not tortured in hell.

God desired mercy instead of sacrifice (Hosea 6:6).

 

[Der Alte]

John the Baptist was a preacher dressed in cheap clothes. He had to forage for locusts and wild honey as he did not draw a large salary. People were walking for a day or more to go listen to him.
He preached in Matthew 3:7 (WEB)
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for his baptism, he said to them, "You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Therefore bring forth fruit worthy of repentance! 9Don't think to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father,' for I tell you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10"Even now the axe lies at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn't bring forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.
The tree that did not produce edible fruit in sufficient quantities was chopped down. The wood was used as lumber or fuel for cooking/heating fires. The dead tree was not tortured in hell.
God desired mercy instead of sacrifice (Hosea 6:6).

See my post #24, above.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I have spent the last two years digging into my KJV to see if the Hell theory holds up or not. I am a former atheist, raised in a damnationist church, a former member of an annihilationist denomination, and am now a proponent of universal reconciliation. So you see, I have seen this subject from every angle. I did not take "hell" at face value, but dug behind it to see what was really meant. God bless center-column references (CCR), for one of my early clues was the word "hell," footnoted in the CCR as "see Sheol." One thing led to another, and by the time I had finished, I had examined every book, every chapter, every verse of my KJV. I delved into Strong's and Young's concordances, non-KJV translations, the Oxford English Dictionary, church history, even Greek and pagan mythology. I may need an asbestos suit very shortly, but here are my considered conclusions:


A CONDENSATION OF CONCLUSIONS



1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation - therefore, Hell is uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, John 1:3, and many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together – without “hell.”


2. In Genesis 1, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.


3. The Creation is a hierarchy, not a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.


4. God made both good and evil – therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.


5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.


6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. God warns of death, but not of Hell. See Genesis 2:17, 3:3, Romans 6:23.


8. All people die, but none of them go to ECT – only to the grave/pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the CCR.


9. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


10. ECT depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato.


11. The Law given to Moses does not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments are delivered in the real world. See Exodus through Deuteronomy.


12. All the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4.


13. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there.


14. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Romans 6:7,16.


15. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.


16. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but MK Baxter has Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in ECT, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on…


17. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.


18. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7.


19. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.


20. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.


21. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – either fire or soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.


22. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12.


23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.


24. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is a 404. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

Indeed. Hell is especially 404 when we get to the writings of the apostles. Hell is such a terrible place to end up in that, none of the apostles ever talk much about it. It's almost like, either the apostles were totally unaware of any such a place, or, they just left it out of all their letters so Christians after them could have all of the fun threatening people with it.

But it doesn't seem to matter how many verses you cite about, every knee bowing (Philippians 2:10), everything in heaven and earth being subdued to Christ (Philippians 3:21, 1 Corinthians 15:28), Jesus being the Saviour of the world (John 4:42, 1 John 4:14, 1 Timothy 4:10), God reconciling all things to Himself (2 Corinthians 5:19, Colossians 1:20). None of that matters because they can point to a few verses (usually in symbolic passages) that have the word "fire" in them and then say "See? God will not reconcile all things to Him, Christ isn't the Saviour of the world, He won't subdue all things to Him, every knee won't bow; because this verse has the word 'fire' in it; and oh, this verse says 'punishment' so you see? Everyone burns in horrific suffering for all of time except for me! That's the good news! None of the apostles said any of this because they left it all to me to say!" and you can just reply, "Truly you have a dizzying intellect" and leave it at that.

 

[dqhall]

I have been to the Hinnom Valley. It is below the City of David near the Pool of Siloam and westward along the south side of the Mt. Zion. If the wind was from the west to the east as is typical in this country, then the smoke would not have blown into the city.

Gehenna is also where their worm does not die. Intestinal or other parasitic worms did damage and caused suffering. Hell/Gehenna may be a time of suffering in a person's life, like a herniated disc that does not heal. One should not cause stumbling as broken bones are quite painful and a source of lost wages. To be useless to God and condemned for wrongs done is a bad place to be, even if it is not a particular location in a valley south of the walls of Jerusalem.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Since you began this discourse with hand waving and pooh poohing, the rest doesn't merit reading.
A lot of folks make the claim they are only interested in what the Bible says but unless they have a Jewish mindset, and most don't, they will only know "what the Bible says" as filtered through 2000 +/- years of western thinking. How can we understand the OT as the ancient Jews understood it, after all it was written to them? How can we claim we're only "interested in what the Bible says" if we ignore how the native Hebrew speaking Jews understood what those scriptures say. And if we ignore how Jesus taught those scripture to those same Jews.

You are also filtering your OT understanding through centuries of rabbinical tradition, aren't you? Layers of Christian theology versus layers of Jewish theology - it's difficult enough to dig out the truth, without posters who won't admit their biases...

 

[drjean]

Exactly! Keep in mind that God's Justice involved sending His Only Son here to the Earth, to live as a lowly man and die a miserable death. God loves us THAT much!

God does love us that much, but the rest of what you've posted, perhaps in haste, is only part of the theology,imo.

Jesus is the Word, which was God and was with God at the beginning of creation ("Let US"...) from the foundation of the earth....and it was God's (Triune) plan all along for Jesus to take on flesh, live as that lowly (Humble) man, die that miserable death... AND conquer death and hell (Revelation 1:18) AND resurrect to a new body glorified AND ascend into heaven where He sits at God the Father's right hand.

Without the conquering death and hell (notice they are separate entities) and resurrecting, we would all still be lost in our sin.

For two years' study, which I commend you for, how much was in the original languages? Someone in the thread said they didn't pay any attention to the Hebrew "stories" and I beg to say that without a good understanding of God's language--the Hebrew language--you cannot fully understand God's Word.

This above statement I believe to be true especially if you are reading and studying in English. English is a limited language. It's almost as though a lazy language which lumps all manner of emotions and views together in as few words as possible. This is as opposed to Greek which has a word for nearly every nuance of a meaning, and to Hebrew which is more like playing 5D chess. Not only are there some 13 different verb conjugations,( and plenty of verb categories) there are numbers and symbols represented within the language which when all pieced together give a very detailed description of a matter. English pales in comparison.

Yes, there are different names in English for what we all might think of as "hell". There are different levels and degrees of torture, as described in God's Word. Surely you did find these in your studies.

May I suggest, since you do give testimony to being a believer, that you begin with faith and belief that God's Word is true and on that premise seek His truth regarding what you wish to learn, such as about hell.

Why would you find a need for a Savior if there is nothing from which to be saved, I wonder.