Would todays Salvation work for the people before the Bible was comprised ?

[ToBeLoved]

Again not a hard question to answer. We would all agree, to start the Salvation process , "WE" (geralt , our part) are drawn by the Father , Do not have the Holy Spirit yet , and our next response to the drawing of the Father is "Faith" . Pisteuo in the Greek , it means to "personally surrender our lives to God , and live a life inspired by such surrender." (as per Vines)

Why don't you list out your best use of the word in a verse and we can get the Greek and prove you wrong real quick. Nevermind, I think that word is only used three times in the New Testament, I'll go find them.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Pisteuo

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 4100
pisteuo

pist-yoo'-o Verb
Definition

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

NAS Word Usage - Total: 243
believe 118, believed 73, believers 3, believes 29, believing 10, do 1, entrust 1, entrusted 6, entrusting 1, has faith 1

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/pisteuo.html


So there you are. You're wrong.

Nothing there about personally surrendering our lives to God. Note at the bottom: in red

It's to believe.


This is why we should in no way let anyone else tell us what God's Word says. We each need to study diligently to know God's Word.

 

[watchman 2]

Again not a hard question to answer. We would all agree, to start the Salvation process , "WE" (geralt , our part) are drawn by the Father , Do not have the Holy Spirit yet , and our next response to the drawing of the Father is "Faith" . Pisteuo in the Greek , it means to "personally surrender our lives to God , and live a life inspired by such surrender." (as per Vines)

Seeing that the Spirit of Christ , Christ , and Gods Word and promises are not ours to claim yet at the beginning of the Salvation journey , true pisteuo is the correct answer.

Marvin agreed with me to this point. Saying that just the one time surrendering of our life and will to God would immediately result in the sealing of the Holy Spirit , making His Spirit , Christ , and His Word and promises ours to claim.

I replied , that we have not yet gone through the testing of our Faith (our surrender) yet. This testing happens in the parable of the sower. In the parable of the sower , 3 out of the 4 soils fail. So in Marvins understanding and probably the others he mentioned , 3 out of the 4 soils would fail "with" the Holy Spirit sealed in them. Making it impossible for them to be sealed at another time.

We can only be sealed one time , and i know you do not accept the fact that one can loose the Holy Spirit once they have been sealed. So could you explain the contradiction in your understandings.

"You say" that we are sealed at the very beginning of the process , that means 3 out of the 4 failures in the parable of the sower have the Holy Spirit in them when they fail.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Pisteuo : used 248 times in the NT. Sorry TBL your only off by 245 times. But thats the least of your problems. You wanted to be part of this discussion , well heres your chance.

I've shown by specifically going through the beginning of the Salvation process that we are drawn by the Father , without the Holy Spirit sealed in us yet. As the result of the Spirit of Christ "not" being in us yet , Christ and His Word , including His promises are "not' ours yet. Pretty basic stuff! Rom. 8:9

Now , my point will be best made by TBL. She's no doubt being drawn by the Father , i have no question about that. But instead of fulfilling "pisteuo" or surrendering her life and will to God , she goes right around the "mandatory surrendering of her life to God" and starts claiming Gods Word and all of the promises there in. That makes yo a thief and a robber. It's not your fault TBL , at least it wasn't until now. You know i'm correct , and that your understanding is flawed in many ways. So what will you do now that you know the truth , that your understanding doesn't fit. Now it is on you.

Your welcome.

Why don't you invalidate the findings of my source using another Biblical program so we can see proof.

Your opinion doesn't cut it anymore.

Include the URL as I did for verification.

More than your word is needed here

 

[ScottA]

The answer is no.

What the people of today understand as "believing" in Gods Word as the means to recieve the Holy Spirit , thus being "in Christ" and Gods Word and promises theirs to claim, would not work for 99% percent of people before the 1500's.

The reason is simple, the Bible as we know it today had not been put together yet. A small fraction of people may have had some exposier to the spoken word , but they could not "believe" in Gods Word to have a relationship with Christ the way people do today. A reason for this is that, is there was no Word of God as we know it for them to"believe" in for Salvation.

So does that mean they were not faithing correctly? No! It means that the people today are not faithing correctly.

Another reason for this misunderstanding is because of the mistranslation of the Greek word 'pisteuo' into the English.

The true meaning of "pisteuo" in the Vines dictionary is , "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender.' And the best thing about this correct meaning of saving Faith , is that it would work for us today , and also work for those before Gods Word was available to the masses. All that would be needed to bring someone to a point of surrendering their life and will to God , would be God the Father drawing them. You know , like he did with Abraham and Moses.

This thread might be better understood by carefully reading my other thread named ,
The mistranslation into the English of the act of Faith that saves ..

It would appear that you are putting too much emphasis on language...which was confused by God at the tower of Babel anyway. No, in much simpler terms, "the just are saved by faith." Period.

But it is even simpler than that: There is only One begotten of God, One Christ...and all the saved are "in Christ." Meaning that, if we are in Christ, we are a part of Christ. Who, then, is in Christ? There are "the dead in Christ" and also "the living." The "dead in Christ" died in their sins (before the cross and the coming of the Holy Spirit), these are the Jews...and then the "living" are those who are "born again" of the spirit of God. These are "the two witnesses" spoken of in Revelation. As it is written: "First to the Jew, then to the gentile." By having the faith to believe in His coming (before He came), or by believing that He has come - we are saved. It's that simple.

 

[watchman 2]

T

 

[watchman 2]

It would appear that you are putting too much emphasis on language...which was confused by God at the tower of Babel anyway. No, in much simpler terms, "the just are saved by faith." Period.

But it is even simpler than that: There is only One begotten of God, One Christ...and all the saved are "in Christ." Meaning that, if we are in Christ, we are a part of Christ. Who, then, is in Christ? There are "the dead in Christ" and also "the living." The "dead in Christ" died in their sins (before the cross and the coming of the Holy Spirit), these are the Jews...and then the "living" are those who are "born again" of the spirit of God. These are "the two witnesses" spoken of in Revelation. As it is written: "First to the Jew, then to the gentile." By having the faith to believe in His coming (before He came), or

 

[ToBeLoved]

TBL , All you need to know is if you haven't made the first surrendering of your life and will to God , your still in the drawing phase of the process. God is waiting for you to "pisteuo" to Him , to Faithe into Him. He is waiting for you to surrender your life and will over to "Him". Thats the "only" way to start a relationship with Him.

If you haven't done at least the first genuine surrendering of your life to Him , your journey hasn't even started.

This is really important TBL . I tried to show you in a very easy to comprehend understanding , but you had to be drugg , kicking and screaming , trying to misrepresent me every inch of the way , even worse than Marvin did.

The Vines Greek dictionary is the only source that defines the "precise" act of Faith (pisteuo) that saves. It reads : "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender." It's used in the NT 248 times , this is the verb form of Faith. Pistis is the noun for Faith , and is used another 250 times in the NT.

I tried to show you how yours and many others understanding of the Salvation process "can't" work the way you understand it to. And i haven't even gotten into Gods Word yet. Talking with someone about Gods Word when it's not theres yet ? Well thats why no one can agree on anything in it.

I hope you have a change of heart.

lol.

You haven't proved anything. More opinions. You are a real winner.

 

[Marvin Knox]

you had to be drugg , kicking and screaming , trying to misrepresent me every inch of the way , even worse than Marvin did.

Please stop referring to me by name when you talk about people who have misrepresented you here.

I have done no such thing. If you had the personal relationship with the Lord that you count on for your future salvation you would realized that and repent of your slander.

 

[watchman 2]

Iw2

 

[ToBeLoved]

Please stop referring to me by name when you talk about people who have misrepresented you here.

I have done no such thing. If you had the personal relationship with the Lord that you count on for your future salvation you would realized that and repent of your slander.

I second that. Unsubscribing to this foolishness.

 

[watchman 2]

I

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If theres anyone following this thread and would like to start a discussion from the beginning , here are the questions i've asked.

At the beginning of the Salvation journey , the very start "do you agree" that we are drawn to Christ by the father , and that at that beginning point we "do not" have the Spirit of Christ "sealed" in us yet ?

It seems the problem is not with the questions,
perhaps not even with the answers,
but with the starting point of the questions - i.e. "why" they are asked,
and then with the direction it goes from there, = trying to prove what ?

If the source motive is not good,
or the desired end is not good,
then the middle can't be helpful either......

There's nothing specific nor even in general to suggest this definitely,
but all the general discord in the middle [of the thread/ ideas]
suggests something is going on that's not 'kosher'..... somewhere....

 

[watchman 2]

[QU

 

[watchman 2]

It seems the problem is not with the questions,
perhaps not even with the answers,
but with the starting point of the questions - i.e. "why" they are asked,
and then with the direction it goes from there, = trying to prove what ?

If the source motive is not good,
or the desired end is not good,
then the middle can't be helpful either......

There's nothing specific nor even in general to suggest this definitely,
but all the general discord in the middle [of the thread/ ideas]
suggests something is going on that's not 'kosher'..... somewhere....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Like the OP said, would todays Salvation (Faith) have worked for the people that never had Gods Word available to them .

I'm not sure the other questions after this one matters really.

The answer to this one is yes.

 

[watchman 2]

I'm not sure the other questions after this one matters really.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thankfully, with outstanding eternal PRAISE TO YHWH THE FATHER IN HEAVEN and Y'SHUA'S FAITHFULNESS,

my SALVATION does not depend AT ALL on my understanding , ESPECIALLY concerning these questions, nor the purpose or the goals of the questions.

Then lets go through the process starting at the beginning to see if your understanding of Faith and faithing would work.

At the beginning of the Salvation journey , the very start "do you agree" that we are drawn to Christ by the father , and that at that beginning point we "do not" have the Spirit of Christ "sealed" in us yet ?

 

[watchman 2]

Thankfully, with outstanding eternal PRAISE TO YHWH THE FATHER IN HEAVEN and Y'SHUA'S FAITHFULNESS,

my SALVATION does not depend AT ALL on my understanding , ESPECIALLY concerning these questions, nor the purpose or the goals of the questions.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Thankfully, with outstanding eternal PRAISE TO YHWH THE FATHER IN HEAVEN and Y'SHUA'S FAITHFULNESS, my SALVATION does not depend AT ALL on my understanding , ESPECIALLY concerning these questions, nor the purpose or the goals of the questions.

There seems to be a real reluctance to be completely forthright with a display of exactly what the OP's view of the entire "salvation process" really is. Since IMO none but the most gullible will have the patience to play by his rules until the end - it seems to me that we may never fully understand his theology.

Having said that - I gather from a previous post that where he is going has something to do with the idea that only one of the 4 people we are told about in the parable of the soils was "successful" in his quest for salvation. All others, as has been clearly said "failed" in their quest to get to the point where they were "sealed by the Holy Spirit". "making Christ his" and the like.

Many don't agree with me that the Lord loves and has an eternal use for the likes of the middle two persons in the parable - even though they did not achieve the highest height in their walk with the Lord over their lifetime.

The idea of the OP seems to be (who could know for sure) that, if a person teaches that a person is "sealed" at the beginning of his Christian walk, he would than have to be "unsealed" when he "failed" and that doesn't make sense due to the nature of what "sealed" means.

The entire theology then would be predicated and dependent on the idea that it is we humans who "succeed or fail" in our quest to "fulfill pisteuo" by "faithing" or whatever other term a person uses for a really surrendered walk with the Lord.

If that really is the concept being put forth (who can really know because of the games involved) - that concept of salvation is fatally flawed for the simple reason that God is the author and finisher of our faith (from start to finish) and not us.

God does not "fail" in His quest to bring us through to the end. Understanding that simple fact is the entire reason that the Lord goes out of His way to tell us that we are "sealed" at the beginning of our walk with Him.

All of epistles are written to people who have been "saved", "sealed", "seated with Him", "made part of His body", and all the rest of such things "already" (note the "ed" on the end of all those words). The people Paul and the other apostles are writing to are not "hoping" for those things. They are not trying "not to fail" in their quest for such things. It's a done deal in God's mind and has been since before the foundation of the world.

The reason I feel and charge that "another gospel" is being preached here is because the concept used as a basis for the understanding of the "salvation process" in his gospel is so deeply flawed that it can never be part correct understanding of the true gospel.

I suppose that I could be "misrepresenting" the beliefs of the OP. But how would I know since he won't come out and tell any but the most susceptible to false teachings exactly what those beliefs are?

If he does and I am wrong in my assessment - I will gladly and openly recant any of my wrong representations of his positions.