Would todays Salvation work for the people before the Bible was comprised ?

[watchman 2]

T

 

[Ken Behrens]

Sorry, I'm confused. The title is "salvation" and the post is about "receiving the Holy Spirit", The two are separate, are they not? And did you say the Bible had not been put together until the 1500's?

The NT shows pretty clearly that Jesus was preached with constant reference to the OT to prove He is the Messiah. So, salvation was always preached by reference to as much Bible as they had. Peter refers to Paul's writings as part of Scripture, so the bible (at least part of it) existed even in the earliest days of Christianity.

I think you kind of have a point though. The earliest preaching was about the two ways, and entering the Kingdom of God. We don't do that much anymore. In those days, following Jesus instead of the old sin changed your life now, as well as after you die. That's not preached much anymore.

 

[watchman 2]

Sorry, I'm confused. The title is "salvation" and the post is about "receiving the Holy Spirit", The two are separate, are they not? And did you say the Bible had not been put together until the 1500's?

The NT shows pretty clearly that Jesus was preached with constant reference to the OT to prove He is the Messiah. So, salvation was always preached by reference to as much Bible as they had. Peter refers to Paul's writings as part of Scripture, so the bible (at least part of it) existed even in the earliest days of Christianity.

I think you kind of have a point though. The earliest preaching was about the two ways, and entering the Kingdom of God. We don't do that much anymore. In those days, following Jesus instead of the old sin changed your life now, as well as after you die. That's not preached much anymore.

 

[watchman 2]

And more specifically , the NT and how it relates to the rest of the world .

 

[watchman 2]

Sorry, I'm confused. The title is "salvation" and the post is about "receiving the Holy Spirit", The two are separate, are they not? And did you say the Bible had not been put together until the 1500's?

The NT shows pretty clearly that Jesus was preached with constant reference to the OT to prove He is the Messiah. So, salvation was always preached by reference to as much Bible as they had. Peter refers to Paul's writings as part of Scripture, so the bible (at least part of it) existed even in the earliest days of Christianity.

I think you kind of have a point though. The earliest preaching was about the two ways, and entering the Kingdom of God. We don't do that much anymore. In those days, following Jesus instead of the old sin changed your life now, as well as after you die. That's not preached much anymore.

 

[mark kennedy]

The answer is no.

I have to disagree, what we are calling the Scriptures is the embodiment of the Apostles doctrine. The church has always treasured these testimonies and even if they didn't have printing presses they carefully preserved, published and read these timeless teachings to Christians for most of our history.

What the people of today understand as "believing" in Gods Word as the means to receive the Holy Spirit , thus being "in Christ" and Gods Word and promises theirs to claim, would not work for 99% percent of people before the 1500's.

Knowing something perfectly is not the same as knowing something completely. The gospel is sufficient and illiterate Christians have managed to find Christ through the testimony of others without reading a single word.

The reason is simple, the Bible had not been put together yet.

The Bible isn't something monolithic where you leave out one part and the rest is meaningless. We have these teachings at our disposal but for some reason Bible illiteracy is at epidemic proportions. The first century church probably had no such difficulties since they cherished the Word of God so much they made it the single best preserved collection of documents from antiquity.

Another reason for this misunderstanding is because of the mistranslation of the Greek word 'pisteuo' into the English.

The true meaning of "pisteuo" in the Vines dictionary is , "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender.' And the best thing about this correct meaning of saving Faith , is that it would work for us today , and also work for those before Gods Word was available to the masses. All that would be needed to bring someone to a point of surrendering their life and will to God , would be God the Father drawing them. You know , like he did with Abraham and Moses.

Those insights are always interesting, thanks for that. I think salvation is different for everyone who comes to Christ and yet it's always the same. You hear the Word of God, receive it in faith and you are received by the one who makes the promise. What we have to bear in mind is that Abraham didn't believe God's promise when he heard he would have a son and neither did Sarah. What we do know is that they believed the one who made the promise is faithful. Jesus was always telling the disciples, oh ye of little faith, are we so different because we have leather bond Bibles on our shelves collecting dust? Just food for thought, thanks for a thought provoking topic.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Greg J.]

Claiming a statement is a fact is an assertion that that is how you view the statement. But claiming it time and time again serves no purpose other than to assert you are testifying about yourself.

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. (John 5:31, 1984 NIV)

This is a very hard verse for me to keep in my behavior, but I try:

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. (bold mine, Philippians 2:3, 1984 NIV)

Remember God is on their side.

... “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6b, 1984 NIV)

It helps me to remember that God loves them just as much as me. Some people have been through traumas that have altered the definitions of some words beyond what is in the dictionary, been raised in different cultures, or simply just think differently. Razor-like analytical skills does not guarantee a correct understanding. People who understand some things through their feelings (or actions!) can understanding or believe something better in God's eyes than someone with a logical chain to back up their belief. People just understand things differently.

..., Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (Colossians 2:2b-4, 1984 NIV)

Because of our fallenness, it is often wise to suspect understanding and reasoning that originates with a human. It is why we quote Scripture, and why we have suspicion for deductions that are too many steps removed from the statement of Scripture. (1 step is hard enough, but is often safe. 2 steps away is often not safe.)

There is such thing as "over-analyzing." It can sometimes be recognized when attention is turned from the topic to the analysis. Sometimes common sense results in more correct reasoning and conclusions. The rest of this post would count as over-analyzing to some people. Sometimes being "nit-picky" is called for, but it's a good idea to make sure they impact the assertion, rather than the person's ability to reason. Claiming "facts" leaves a person open to this.

The English has no verb for the noun Faith as the Greek does. fact.

A misleading statement. Words are tools to communicate concepts. Any words that correctly communicate the same concept are good substitutes for each other. The concept expressed by a single word in one language can often be expressed quite well with multiple words in another language.

The translators chose to use the words believe, believer, and believing. those words are only a part of pisteuo , but taken alone are a mistranslation. fact

Oversimplification. Regarding the 1984 NIV:
πιστεύω (pisteuo / verb) is translated into believe, faith, trusts, entrusts (and others).
πίστις (pistis / noun) is translated into faith, faithful(ness), belief, pledge (and others).
πίστις (pistos / adjective) in translated into faithful, trusted, trustworthy, believe, sure, reliable (and others).

The words the English language "should" have had to translate pisteuo are , faithe, faither , and faithing. fact

Those words are not part of the English language I know. Translators should not make up new words for people to learn so they can translate a word into "English." It's not translating into English.

... Because pisteuo was mistranslated "into" English, it's also mistranslated back out of the English. fact

Your own studies may have shown it to be true, but with the statement by itself, it is a statement of a theory.

The writers could not have intended that pisteuo was just "belief" in Gods Word , because when they were writing the letter s, there was no Gods Word. fact

God's Word existed long before that. The Word has existed from before the beginning.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. (1 John 1:1, 1984 NIV; also see John 1:1-3)

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. (bold mine, John 15:15, 1984 NIV)

God revealed a lot of the Word to people in the ancient past (before Greek existed), and obviously did before Christ with the Old Testament.

and they could re pond with saving Faith ( pisteuo ) that would result in the sealing of the Holy Spirit. They couldn't have "believed" in Gods Word because it would not have been available to them. fact

God's Word has always been available to everyone (Romans 1:19-20).

The sealing of the Holy Spirit was not possible until he came after Jesus' ascension (John 16:7). As Ken said, there is a difference between that and being saved.

There is no eternal life (for humans) apart from being reborn in Christ. But people were "saved" in and before the Old Testament by having faith in the living Word (God). All they needed to do was recognize that they had sins to pay for, but could not pay, but trusted Elohim would save them by his grace.

The culmination of that salvation did not occur until Jesus' ascension and the giving of the Holy Spirit, although I would say the real final culmination will not happen until after Judgment Day when all things will be made new (or you could argue, only in eternity).

 

[watchman 2]

I have to disagree, what we are calling the Scriptures is the embodiment of the Apostles doctrine. The church has always treasured these testimonies and even if they didn't have printing presses they carefully preserved, published and read these timeless teachings to Christians for most of our history.

I say,
I'm focused on the people the Father could draw that had no access to the spoken Word , which was most of the world.

Knowing something perfectly is not the same as knowing something completely. The gospel is sufficient and illiterate Christians have managed to find Christ through the testimony of others without reading a single word.

I say,
You don't know that, only Christ knows who has found Him.



The Bible isn't something monolithic where you leave out one part and the rest is meaningless. We have these teachings at our disposal but for some reason Bible illiteracy is at epidemic proportions. The first century church probably had no such difficulties since they cherished the Word of God so much they made it the single best preserved collection of documents from antiquity.

I say,
Context starts with those ancients you referred to. With the Scriptures today starting off on the wrong path , (the mistranslation) the Bible as they knew it has been completely perverted or simply backwards.

Those insights are always interesting, thanks for that. I think salvation is different for everyone who comes to Christ and yet it's always the same. You hear the Word of God, receive it in faith and you are received by the one who makes the promise. What we have to bear in mind is that Abraham didn't believe God's promise when he heard he would have a son and neither did Sarah. What we do know is that they believed the one who made the promise is faithful. Jesus was always telling the disciples, oh ye of little faith, are we so different because we have leather bond Bibles on our shelves collecting dust? Just food for thought, thanks for a thought provoking topic.

I say,
Your making my point for me. Ultimately the "object" of Faith or pisteuo can't be Gods Word. The "object" of Faith has to be God Himself , a real living person. We can't have a relationship with a book, even if its Gods Word. It must be personal with God Himself , theres a difference.

Let me plant a thought in your mind. You referred to "hearing" the word of God. This comes from another Scripture that reads, "Faith comes by hearing , hearing by the word of God." The word "hearing" that the ancient writers used , is defined as "a court room hearing" . Now this presents a really big question , or maybe even two . One, who is on trial here in this Scripture ? And two , is it ever ok to put God on trial?

If i were to put one vowel into this English translation , it would read like this. "Faith comes by "a" hearing , "a" hearing by the Word of God. Christ is the Word of God , we are on trial, and it's our surrendering thats on trial. If our surrendering is deemed genuine by Christ , our Faith is increased and we continue to move forward in the Salvation process. Faith coming by hearing Gods Word is a mistranslation also.
Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[watchman 2]

Claiming a statement is a fact is an assertion that that is how you view the statement. But claiming it time and time again serves no purpose other than to assert you are testifying about yourself.

“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. (John 5:31, 1984 NIV)

This is a very hard verse for me to keep in my behavior, but I try:

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. (bold mine, Philippians 2:3, 1984 NIV)

Remember God is on their side.

... “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6b, 1984 NIV)

It helps me to remember that God loves them just as much as me. Some people have been through traumas that have altered the definitions of some words beyond what is in the dictionary, been raised in different cultures, or simply just think differently. Razor-like analytical skills does not guarantee a correct understanding. People who understand some things through their feelings (or actions!) can understanding or believe something better in God's eyes than someone with a logical chain to back up their belief. People just understand things differently.

..., Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (Colossians 2:2b-4, 1984 NIV)

Because of our fallenness, it is often wise to suspect understanding and reasoning that originates with a human. It is why we quote Scripture, and why we have suspicion for deductions that are too many steps removed from the statement of Scripture. (1 step is hard enough, but is often safe. 2 steps away is often not safe.)

There is such thing as "over-analyzing." It can sometimes be recognized when attention is turned from the topic to the analysis. Sometimes common sense results in more correct reasoning and conclusions. The rest of this post would count as over-analyzing to some people. Sometimes being "nit-picky" is called for, but it's a good idea to make sure they impact the assertion, rather than the person's ability to reason. Claiming "facts" leaves a person open to this.

A misleading statement. Words are tools to communicate concepts. Any words that correctly communicate the same concept are good substitutes for each other. The concept expressed by a single word in one language can often be expressed quite well with multiple words in another language.

Oversimplification. Regarding the 1984 NIV:
πιστεύω (pisteuo / verb) is translated into believe, faith, trusts, entrusts (and others).
πίστις (pistis / noun) is translated into faith, faithful(ness), belief, pledge (and others).
πίστις (pistos / adjective) in translated into faithful, trusted, trustworthy, believe, sure, reliable (and others).

Those words are not part of the English language I know. Translators should not make up new words for people to learn so they can translate a word into "English." It's not translating into English.

Your own studies may have shown it to be true, but with the statement by itself, it is a statement of a theory.

God's Word existed long before that. The Word has existed from before the beginning.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. (1 John 1:1, 1984 NIV; also see John 1:1-3)

I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. (bold mine, John 15:15, 1984 NIV)

God revealed a lot of the Word to people in the ancient past (before Greek existed), and obviously did before Christ with the Old Testament.

God's Word has always been available to everyone (Romans 1:19-20).

The sealing of the Holy Spirit was not possible until he came after Jesus' ascension (John 16:7). As Ken said, there is a difference between that and being saved.

There is no eternal life (for humans) apart from being reborn in Christ. But people were "saved" in and before the Old Testament by having faith in the living Word (God). All they needed to do was recognize that they had sins to pay for, but could not pay, but trusted Elohim would save them by his grace.

The culmination of that salvation did not occur until Jesus' ascension and the giving of the Holy Spirit, although I would say the real final culmination will not happen until after Judgment Day when all things will be made new (or you could argue, only in eternity).

 

[farout]

The answer is no.

What the people of today understand as "believing" in Gods Word as the means to recieve the Holy Spirit , thus being "in Christ" and Gods Word and promises theirs to claim, would not work for 99% percent of people before the 1500's.

The reason is simple, the Bible had not been put together yet.

Another reason for this misunderstanding is because of the mistranslation of the Greek word 'pisteuo' into the English.

The true meaning of "pisteuo" in the Vines dictionary is , "A personal surrender to Him , and a life inspired by such surrender.' And the best thing about this correct meaning of saving Faith , is that it would work for us today , and also work for those before Gods Word was available to the masses. All that would be needed to bring someone to a point of surrendering their life and will to God , would be God the Father drawing them. You know , like he did with Abraham and Moses.

I think I understand you. I believe if you wrote down your question on paper first, before posting it might be helpful. You post requires me and others to read between the lines. You post is disjointed.

The Bible was finalized as complete in about 375 AD. The 1611 KJV was not the firs English Bible. God has always given people who sought Him the way to Salvation, He has enlightened them. John 1:9. Romans 1:19,20 And everyone has been given enough light to so they are without any excuse fro not knowing Him. That is for always and forever and until the world ends. That covers from Adam and Eve to the end of time.

 

[mark kennedy]

Your making my point for me. Ultimately the "object" of Faith or pisteuo can't be Gods Word. The "object" of Faith has to be God Himself , a real living person. We can't have a relationship with a book, even if its Gods Word. It must be personal with God Himself , theres a difference.

Well in the Old Testament prophets took the message to kings, priests and people and the subject of the message was their relationship with God, I don't see the difference.

Let me plant a thought in your mind. You referred to "hearing" the word of God. This comes from another Scripture that reads, "Faith comes by hearing , hearing by the word of God." The word "hearing" that the ancient writers used , is defined as "a court room hearing" . Now this presents a really big question , or maybe even two . One, who is on trial here in this Scripture ? And two , is it ever ok to put God on trial?

Some times 'hearing' just means I heard something. Other times it's used to say they wouldn't hear it. In the sense pertaining to salvation it means to hear and heed, to understand and respond in faith believing the message, thus responding to it:

According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day. (Rom 11:8)

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (Heb 3:15)
​

The word for 'hearing' in Romans 10:17 has this dictionary definition:

"hearing," akin to akouo, "to hear," denotes
(a) the sense of "hearing," e.g., 1Cr 12:17; 2Pe 2:8;
(b) that which is "heard," a report, e.g., Mat 4:24;
(c) the physical organ, Mar 7:35, standing for the sense of "hearing;" so in Luk 7:1, RV, for AV, "audience;" Act 17:20; 2Ti 4:3, 4 (in ver. 3, lit., "being tickled as to the ears");
(d) a message or teaching, Jhn 12:38; Rom 10:16, 17; Gal 3:2, 5; 1Th 2:13; Hbr 4:2, RV, "(the word) of hearing," for AV, "(the word) preached." (Vine's Expositors Dictionary)
​

A hearing in court is just an expression, really don't see the insight here.

If i were to put one vowel into this English translation , it would read like this. "Faith comes by "a" hearing , "a" hearing by the Word of God. Christ is the Word of God , we are on trial, and it's our surrendering thats on trial. If our surrendering is deemed genuine by Christ , our Faith is increased and we continue to move forward in the Salvation process. Faith coming by hearing Gods Word is a mistranslation also.

The translation is straightforward and easy to understand. The word for hearing is used transitively and intransitively, with the accusative construction it stresses the thing perceived:

(b) transitively when the object is expressed, sometimes in the accusative case, sometimes in the genitive. Thus in Act 9:7, "hearing the voice," the noun "voice" is in the partitive genitive case [i.e., hearing (something) of], whereas in Act 22:9, "they heard not the voice," the construction is with the accusative. This removes the idea of any contradiction. The former indicates a "hearing" of the sound, the latter indicates the meaning or message of the voice (this they did not hear). "The former denotes the sensational perception, the latter (the accusative case) the thing perceived" (Cremer). In Jhn 5:25, 28, the genitive case is used, indicating a "sensational perception" that the Lord's voice is sounding; in Jhn 3:8, of "hearing" the wind, the accusative is used, stressing "the thing perceived." (Vines Expositors Dictionary)
​

Nothing is being mistranslated and as far as hearing referring to being on trial I would ask to see your source material.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[watchman 2]

I think I understand you. I believe if you wrote down your question on paper first, before posting it might be helpful. You post requires me and others to read between the lines. You post is disjointed.

The Bible was finalized as complete in about 375 AD. The 1611 KJV was not the firs English Bible. God has always given people who sought Him the way to Salvation, He has enlightened them. John 1:9. Romans 1:19,20 And everyone has been given enough light to so they are without any excuse fro not knowing Him. That is for always and forever and until the world ends. That covers from Adam and Eve to the end of time.

 

[mark kennedy]

Again , millions of more people did not have access to Gods Word of any kind. Does that mean the Father could not draw them to surrender their lives to Him ? No , they "could" start a relationship with Christ by fulfilling "pisteo" , which is simply surrendering their lives to "Him" , not "believing" in His Word that could not have been available to them.

And yes , this is a kind of part two to my other thread explaining more about the mistranslation of the word pisteuo into English. This was more of a point to support the fact that todays saving Faith would not work for those who were not exposed the Gods Word at any level. the Saving faith i'm presenting by the many facts on the other thread , would in fact work today and for anyone the Father wanted to draw to Christ.

Please look over my other thread here , and address the facts i've presented.

The mistranslation into the English of the act of Faith that saves ...

There are some thirty thousand scrolls extant. These scrolls were proliferated among Christians specifically because the Canon of Scripture was cherished. The probably had a better understanding of Scripture then many modern Christians because they had a desire to actually learn them.

 

[watchman 2]

Well in the Old Testament prophets took the message to kings, priests and people and the subject of the message was their relationship with God, I don't see the difference.



Some times 'hearing' just means I heard something. Other times it's used to say they wouldn't hear it. In the sense pertaining to salvation it means to hear and heed, to understand and respond in faith believing the message, thus responding to it:

According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day. (Rom 11:8)

While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (Heb 3:15)
​

The word for 'hearing' in Romans 10:17 has this dictionary definition:

"hearing," akin to akouo, "to hear," denotes
(a) the sense of "hearing," e.g., 1Cr 12:17; 2Pe 2:8;
(b) that which is "heard," a report, e.g., Mat 4:24;
(c) the physical organ, Mar 7:35, standing for the sense of "hearing;" so in Luk 7:1, RV, for AV, "audience;" Act 17:20; 2Ti 4:3, 4 (in ver. 3, lit., "being tickled as to the ears");
(d) a message or teaching, Jhn 12:38; Rom 10:16, 17; Gal 3:2, 5; 1Th 2:13; Hbr 4:2, RV, "(the word) of hearing," for AV, "(the word) preached." (Vine's Expositors Dictionary)
​

A hearing in court is just an expression, really don't see the insight here.



The translation is straightforward and easy to understand. The word for hearing is used transitively and intransitively, with the accusative construction it stresses the thing perceived:

(b) transitively when the object is expressed, sometimes in the accusative case, sometimes in the genitive. Thus in Act 9:7, "hearing the voice," the noun "voice" is in the partitive genitive case [i.e., hearing (something) of], whereas in Act 22:9, "they heard not the voice," the construction is with the accusative. This removes the idea of any contradiction. The former indicates a "hearing" of the sound, the latter indicates the meaning or message of the voice (this they did not hear). "The former denotes the sensational perception, the latter (the accusative case) the thing perceived" (Cremer). In Jhn 5:25, 28, the genitive case is used, indicating a "sensational perception" that the Lord's voice is sounding; in Jhn 3:8, of "hearing" the wind, the accusative is used, stressing "the thing perceived." (Vines Expositors Dictionary)
​

Nothing is being mistranslated and as far as hearing referring to being on trial I would ask to see your source material.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[watchman 2]

There are some thirty thousand scrolls extant. These scrolls were proliferated among Christians specifically because the Canon of Scripture was cherished. The probably had a better understanding of Scripture then many modern Christians because they had a desire to actually learn them.

 

[Greg J.]

Do you agree with the definition of "pisteuo" in the Vines Greek dictionary?

"A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender."

The word pisteuo does not inherently have an implication that includes Jesus.

Personally I would believe the definition from Kittel's TDNT. Unfortunately it may need interpretation by a Greek scholar—each of whom could summarize the meaning differently.

The abridged version would probably be sufficient, though, and I think it is slightly more accessible.

A path to understanding can take all kinds of twists and turns, but in the end, our goal is to understand what has been understood before, since we are preceded by two thousand years of study by millions of people. I think of this as "mainstream Christian" understanding. It is the interpretation of it that we mostly engage in these days. I have been interested in looking up the ancient literature from which we get a definition before, but not enough to learn enough Koine Greek required for me to understand it better than the people who've spent their whole lives as Greek experts. But that's only an issue for words that are hardly used in Scripture (including the LXX). What is best is to look at how the word is used in the other locations in Scripture to understand its meaning. But in the end, if the Holy Spirit isn't teaching it to a person, it is not possible for them to really understand it correctly.

 

[watchman 2]

The word pisteuo does not inherently have an implication that includes Jesus.

Personally I would believe the definition from Kittel's TDNT. Unfortunately it may need interpretation by a Greek scholar—each of whom could summarize the meaning differently.

The abridged version would probably be sufficient, though, and I think it is slightly more accessible.

A path to understanding can take all kinds of twists and turns, but in the end, our goal is to understand what has been understood before, since we are preceded by two thousand years of study by millions of people. I think of this as "mainstream Christian" understanding. It is the interpretation of it that we mostly engage in these days. I have been interested in looking up the ancient literature from which we get a definition before, but not enough to learn enough Koine Greek required for me to understand it better than the people who've spent their whole lives as Greek experts. But that's only an issue for words that are hardly used in Scripture (including the LXX). What is best is to look at how the word is used in the other locations in Scripture to understand its meaning. But in the end, if the Holy Spirit isn't teaching it to a person, it is not possible for them to really understand it correctly.

 

[Greg J.]

Everything i'm presenting comes from a Greek scholar.

My teacher collected ancient biblical manuscripts. One to preserve them , two to teach from them. His collection is the largest in private hands behind the Vatican. He taught from these manuscripts for 50 years , in more than 20 different languages. This info is solid.

What someone not involved in a discussion knows is irrelevant to a discussion. If I claimed all of my info came from Scripture by the Holy Spirit, would that give my contribution to the discussion more weight? We might even agree that the Holy Spirit is a lot more knowledgable on this subject than your teacher.

 

[Ken Behrens]

Ken you seem like a good guy , can you read my other thread and discredit any of the facts i presented ?

Also a busy guy. It is 9 pages now. Can you remind me some other time?

 

[Greg J.]

Oh, follow up to my previous post (#18).

Jesus said something similar:

But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. (Matthew 5:34-37, 1984 NIV)

i.e., Don't assert rightness because of your teacher (or his knowledge), even if your teacher is God himself.

Studying reveals what is important to us and that we will work for understanding. God grants the rewards of study to those who study. We only have One Teacher, and we need to be patient for Him to grant us genuine understanding.

This has gotten off topic, so I'm going to (try to) stop addressing this now.