Please cease from misrepresenting what I have said. That is not true. I never said any such thing.
We surrender our lives day by day and often minute by minute.
What I did stress, however, is that there is a beginning time in the life of faith/surrender/pisteuo where a person becomes a new creation in Christ, is justified before God, sealed by the Holy Spirit, receives the Holy Spirit's ministry as teacher and advocate, is made a part of Christ's body, obtains Him as an advocate for the rest of his life, is raised up and seated with Him in Heaven, receives power and authority to begin to rule with Him by faith in the Kingdom of God,is guaranteed to never again come into condemnation having passed from death to life, begin a transformation through the sanctification process throughout the rest of our lives until his eventual glorification - and I suppose a million other things in the Spirit which we will not understand until we reach maturity and see through the glass more clearly.
You know basic salvation 101? (Or rather as it now seems - you don't know.)
I have no real assurance of what you believe about such things since you are hiding behind this ridiculous posting of the same silly questions again and again without proceeding to tell us your view of the overall process of spiritual life.
I have tried every way I know of from asking outright to trying to shame you for your duplicity to outright saying that I believe you are a false teacher.
That's as far as we went because you refuse to explain in an honest manner what your beliefs are.
Again - please stop lying about what I said.
I said that I felt a bit different from many about exactly what is represented in the parable. I said that I saw all but number one as having "root in them" in the form of the Holy Spirit's activity in various ways.
I said that I likened number one to those who simply call Jesus Lord at one time in their life but do not do so with the true leading of the Holy Spirit. They will likely be the ones who will say, "Lord, Lord" only to have Him say that He
never knew them.
None of the others totally "
failed" as I see it because they represent true believers of various stripes. Those represented by the 4th group are real over comers in life and will eventually receive various rewards in the end for their walk of faith. Their "works" will shine forth like precious jewels for eternity.
Groups 2 and group 3 represent people who did little in life in so far as yielding to the Lord day by day. Their works will be sparse and end up being burned up like so much wood, hay, and stubble. They will undoubtedly have some good to show for their lives because the works of some kind will always follow true faith. Some however (represented mostly by number 2) will make it to Heaven only "so as by fire".
Some others believe that only group number 4 represent the saved. We can agree to disagree on that interpretation.
But do not suffer the illusion that I have not thought these things through. I probably have thought them through a lot more than you have. My theology is complete in this regard.
My beliefs are in line with basic evangelical Protestant theology. As I have just expressed them - they would fit well with Calvinist as well as Arminian theology.
You may disagree with my views. But it is dishonest to misrepresent my views here on this thread. Please stop it now.
I have read through her posts and this misrepresents her view.
That is because this rather strange "mantra" of yours, "before the Spirit of Christ , Christ , and Gods Word and His promises are ours to claim" has not been explained by you so that people can lay out their views clearly in relation to it.
Perhaps this little trick of wording is your method of hiding your true beliefs until the very end of an argument so that people will not cut you off as a false teacher early on.
I believe that she knows full well what justification means. Her definition may be worded slightly different than yours (and mine) (I'll let her tell you what her definition sounds like). But I do believe that both she and I would pretty much agree with the definition you wrote out.
I have reread her post and I believe you are misrepresenting what she believes.
We all agree that no one has the Holy Spirit (sealed etc.) before an initial act of faith. We believe that that comes after faith.
But we disagree with what you are apparently leading up to. We do not receive the Holy Spirit and all of the other promises of God - down the road after a life of testing - and not initially. We receive that upon the initial passing from death to life.
The Philippian jailer and his family (as an example) was so saved and justified at the beginning of their walk and not after some kind of lifetime testing.
The various epistles are written to people who are saved and sealed already - not to people who may be saved if they pan out as "number 4 parable" types. The various statements about the readers of the epistles (us included) are in the past tense in the basic saved vs. lost sense. The words like justified, sealed, seated, and all the rest have a very distinct and clear
"ED" after them do they not?
The only one unwilling to enter into serious discussion is you as just about everyone agree about.
Interestingly you have managed to unite EmSw and I concerning you duplicity. Uniting us on just about anything is exceedingly difficult and rare.
That in itself should give you a hind about the wrong headedness of your approach to discussion.
There is plenty of discussion to be observed and participate in on the meaning of justification. It can be found here in the forum and it can be found in the writings of the Protestant Reformers and those who followed including so called Arminians.
Perhaps not many are jumping in because of your generally duplicitous approach to things and their notation of your utterly ridiculous multiple postings of questions - even though those questions have been answered already (at least by TBL and me).
You have never shown how our view of salvation does not "hold water". Nor have you shown how yours does.
Our view of the basic understanding of the salvation process has held water for two thousand years and fits well with both Arminian and Calvinistic thought equally as well.
Your works oriented view of the salvation process on the other hand was condemned in no uncertain terms by the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Galatians in the first century.
Tell us exactly what you believe about how salvation works from start to finish in plain words and then people like myself will not have to piece it together the way we have with a chance of misrepresenting your beliefs.
Any friction in this thread is on your head. You have been duplicitous from the beginning IMO.
