Creational Perception Ratio

[Loudmouth]

Maybe Metamorphic rock got jammed into sedimentary during Peleg's time?

That's not how it works.

 

[AV1611VET]

That's not how it works.

Thems cauled merikles.

 

[Loudmouth]

Thems cauled merikles.

It's called making stuff up.

 

[Hallstone]

We find things like uranium radiohalos which can only form over millions of years:

Each ring represents one of the decay products in the Uranium decay chain. It takes a long time for Uranium to decay into those daughter products, and a long time for those daughter products to accumulate to the point that they can produce their own visible rings.

Are you saying that God planted fake uranium radiohalos into Earth's rocks just to fool us?

I don't know, I would have to research that, I have never heard of it, perhaps there is something that could effect it when the world was reconstituted and recreated through water , perhaps when it was first created it gained those things from the intense power of Him creating the universe in a single moment, I don't know, but I have seen many things, like sea shells on top of high mountains, and fossils of deep sea crinoids on the high mesas above the Colorado river valley by Blythe, all the way to Lake mead, I seen large fossilized deposits of many different animals all conglomerated together on the side of a mountain, and many geological formations, actually I seen more things than I could list here, and nothing I have seen conflicts with the creation/flood model set forth in Moses' account, but I will research the uranium halo evidence.

 

[46AND2]

I don't know, I would have to research that, I have never heard of it, perhaps there is something that could effect it when the world was reconstituted and recreated through water , perhaps when it was first created it gained those things from the intense power of Him creating the universe in a single moment, I don't know, but I have seen many things, like sea shells on top of high mountains, and fossils of deep sea crinoids on the high mesas above the Colorado river valley by Blythe, all the way to Lake mead, I seen large fossilized deposits of many different animals all conglomerated together on the side of a mountain, and many geological formations, actually I seen more things than I could list here, and nothing I have seen conflicts with the creation/flood model set forth in Moses' account, but I will research the uranium halo evidence.

Here is a good discussion on the topic:

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=6295

What's interesting is that the uranium halos not only are an extremely strong argument for an old earth, it is also a strong argument for the decay rates being constant for many millions of years.

Essentially, the halos are made from the mineral being damaged by the decay of Uranium. The issue is that each decay event causes a one atom sized discoloration in the mineral, so clearly many millions of decay events are necessary to create these halos. This constitutes a very long period of time for Uranium to create a halo, since it decays so infrequently.

The reason that it is an argument for the constancy of decay rates is that the radius of the halo is consistent with the decay energy, and the decay energy is related to the decay rate. So if you speed up the decay rate, you wouldn't get the same depth into the mineral from the decay event. So, not only do you have to have millions of decay events, all those decayed atoms had to have the same energy, and similarly, the same decay rate.

So, the decay rate of Uranium has been constant for many millions of years, as observed with Uranium halos.

 

[Jimmy D]

I have personally found fossil evidence, and geological evidence to support this, and have made no money, or prestige from it. there have been many discoveries that do not fit the scientific models, and that evidence is buried.

Interesting, can you show us the evidence you have uncovered?

 

[Ophiolite]

, I don't know, but I have seen many things, like sea shells on top of high mountains, and fossils of deep sea crinoids on the high mesas above the Colorado river valley by Blythe, all the way to Lake mead, I seen large fossilized deposits of many different animals all conglomerated together on the side of a mountain, and many geological formations,

How do you account for the relative position of these various accumulations, which reveal consistent sequencing by age? How do you account for the diverse depositional environments that the fossil bearing sediments were laid down in, given that only a few of them are flood environments?

If you have sincerely not seen in the mountains you have visited, mountains of evidence that contradict your belief in the flood, then you have not looked with open eyes.

Psalm 119 verse 18.

 

[Mark Stacy]

The Bible says that the first man was formed out of the dust of the earth, and God breathed life into him, and he became a living soul.

This is where we hit the first problem, before we can make progress or move forward we must find out about this 'God',
what is a God and how did it get into the conversation?

Believers say 'there is a God' and move on from there, after that they feel they can say whatever they like and when challenged all they need say is 'God did it', well that's just crazy, believers can believe what they like but what they can't do is justify things in reality with their belief.

 

[Loudmouth]

I don't know, I would have to research that, I have never heard of it, perhaps there is something that could effect it when the world was reconstituted and recreated through water , perhaps when it was first created it gained those things from the intense power of Him creating the universe in a single moment, I don't know,

How in the world would "intense power" produce uranium halos? You seem to be grasping at straws.

but I have seen many things, like sea shells on top of high mountains, and fossils of deep sea crinoids on the high mesas above the Colorado river valley by Blythe, all the way to Lake mead, I seen large fossilized deposits of many different animals all conglomerated together on the side of a mountain, and many geological formations, actually I seen more things than I could list here, and nothing I have seen conflicts with the creation/flood model set forth in Moses' account, but I will research the uranium halo evidence.

They aren't on the mountains. They are in the mountains. The mountains and sediments themselves are made up of marine deposits that are hundreds to thousands of feet thick. These examples are perhaps the best examples of why young Earth creationism is wrong since these deposits can not be made quickly. For example, you can't produce 2,000 feet of crinoid plates in a single catastrophic flood:

"Much of the massive limestone formation is composed of sand-sized particles of calcium carbonate, fragments of crinoid plates, and shells broken by the waves. Such a sedimentary rock qualifies for the name sandstone because it is composed of particles of sand size cemented together; because the term sandstone is commonly understood to refer to a quartz-rich rock, however, these limestone sandstones are better called calcarenites. The Madison sea must have been shallow, and the waves and currents strong, to break the shells and plates of the animals when they died. The sorting of the calcite grains and the cross-bedding that is common in this formation are additional evidence of waves and currents at work. Even in Mississippian rocks, where whole crinoids are rare fossils, and as a result, it is easy to underestimate the population of these animals during the Paleozoic era. Crinoidal limestones, such as the Mission Canyon-Livingstone unit, provide an estimate, even though it be of necessity a rough one, of their abundance in the clear shallow seas they loved. In the Canadian Rockies the Livingstone limestone was deposited to a thickness of 2,000 feet on the margin of the Cordilleran geosyncline, but it thins rapidly eastward to a thickness of about 1,000 feet in the Front Ranges and to about 500 feet in the Williston Basin. Even though its crinoidal content decreases eastward, it may be calculated to represent at least 10,000 cubic miles of broken crinoid plates. How many millions, billions, trillions of crinoids would be required to provide such a deposit? The number staggers the imagination."
http://barryhisblog.blogspot.com/p/too-many-fossils-for-global-flood.html​

What do crinoids look like?

How in the world do you rapidly bury these two crinoids and get 2,000 feet of just crinoids? The answer is, you don't. The very rocks you are talking about are the best refutation of a young Earth and a recent global flood that there are.

 

[Hallstone]

We find things like uranium radiohalos which can only form over millions of years:

Each ring represents one of the decay products in the Uranium decay chain. It takes a long time for Uranium to decay into those daughter products, and a long time for those daughter products to accumulate to the point that they can produce their own visible rings.

Are you saying that God planted fake uranium radiohalos into Earth's rocks just to fool us?

If the only force at work was time, then I might be persuaded to consider this logic, but I know that time itself is a created thing, and it is not, and was not the only force at work in the creation of the universe, and the re-creation of the planet 4500 years ago. There are many forces that can come to bear on catastrophic events such as pressure, temperature, salinity, gas percentages, magnetic field intensity, and other sources of radiation, and I'm sure there could be other forces that are not even detectable to us, so I cant see your theory as being concrete, actually it could be seen as proof of the re-creation of the planet. this one site gives an interesting dimension to your theory http://creation.com/radiohalosstartling-evidence-of-catastrophic-geologic-processes-on-a-young-earth

 

[Hallstone]

How in the world would "intense power" produce uranium halos? You seem to be grasping at straws.



They aren't on the mountains. They are in the mountains. The mountains and sediments themselves are made up of marine deposits that are hundreds to thousands of feet thick. These examples are perhaps the best examples of why young Earth creationism is wrong since these deposits can not be made quickly. For example, you can't produce 2,000 feet of crinoid plates in a single catastrophic flood:

"Much of the massive limestone formation is composed of sand-sized particles of calcium carbonate, fragments of crinoid plates, and shells broken by the waves. Such a sedimentary rock qualifies for the name sandstone because it is composed of particles of sand size cemented together; because the term sandstone is commonly understood to refer to a quartz-rich rock, however, these limestone sandstones are better called calcarenites. The Madison sea must have been shallow, and the waves and currents strong, to break the shells and plates of the animals when they died. The sorting of the calcite grains and the cross-bedding that is common in this formation are additional evidence of waves and currents at work. Even in Mississippian rocks, where whole crinoids are rare fossils, and as a result, it is easy to underestimate the population of these animals during the Paleozoic era. Crinoidal limestones, such as the Mission Canyon-Livingstone unit, provide an estimate, even though it be of necessity a rough one, of their abundance in the clear shallow seas they loved. In the Canadian Rockies the Livingstone limestone was deposited to a thickness of 2,000 feet on the margin of the Cordilleran geosyncline, but it thins rapidly eastward to a thickness of about 1,000 feet in the Front Ranges and to about 500 feet in the Williston Basin. Even though its crinoidal content decreases eastward, it may be calculated to represent at least 10,000 cubic miles of broken crinoid plates. How many millions, billions, trillions of crinoids would be required to provide such a deposit? The number staggers the imagination."
http://barryhisblog.blogspot.com/p/too-many-fossils-for-global-flood.html​

What do crinoids look like?

How in the world do you rapidly bury these two crinoids and get 2,000 feet of just crinoids? The answer is, you don't. The very rocks you are talking about are the best refutation of a young Earth and a recent global flood that there are.

God created a Complete earth, and complete ecologies, in all of its completeness in a moment of time, it was allowed to continue for 1650 years and then it was destroyed, remade, and reconstituted. considering all the forces involved in this CONTROLLED reconstruction I'm sure there are many factors that you are neglecting, you are proceeding from the assumption that time and nature are the only forces at work, and that is simply not true, the world before the flood was extremely different than the present world, I would say the present world represent a very small percentage of what it once was.

 

[Hallstone]

This is where we hit the first problem, before we can make progress or move forward we must find out about this 'God',
what is a God and how did it get into the conversation?

Believers say 'there is a God' and move on from there, after that they feel they can say whatever they like and when challenged all they need say is 'God did it', well that's just crazy, believers can believe what they like but what they can't do is justify things in reality with their belief.

That's what is so interesting to me about the whole subject, everyone can understand that the complexity of a design reflects the level of engineering involved in creating it, everyone knows that you cannot throw a m80 into a pile of garbage and get a working computer, so this is the agenda that we are dealing with, people that are willfully ignoring that fact that the universe and our world are an extremely complex, intricate, finely tuned and finely balance design on a enormously astronomic scale, and there is only one conclusion, there must be a very powerful, very intelligent, very benevolent, person out there, in other words God. The quest is to find out what exactly to believe about Him, and what He wants us to do,
Jer 29:13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.

 

[Loudmouth]

If the only force at work was time, then I might be persuaded to consider this logic, but I know that time itself is a created thing, and it is not, and was not the only force at work in the creation of the universe, and the re-creation of the planet 4500 years ago.

What are these other forces and where is the evidence for them? How would those forces produce halos that are identical to the ones we would expect from millions of years of decay?

There are many forces that can come to bear on catastrophic events such as pressure, temperature, salinity, gas percentages, magnetic field intensity, and other sources of radiation, and I'm sure there could be other forces that are not even detectable to us, so I cant see your theory as being concrete,

Sorry, but you don't get to make stuff up as a refutation of things that actually exist. You need to present evidence for this alternate mechanism for producing uranium radiohalos.

actually it could be seen as proof of the re-creation of the planet. this one site gives an interesting dimension to your theory http://creation.com/radiohalosstartling-evidence-of-catastrophic-geologic-processes-on-a-young-earth

Please present the evidence.

 

[Hallstone]

How do you account for the relative position of these various accumulations, which reveal consistent sequencing by age? How do you account for the diverse depositional environments that the fossil bearing sediments were laid down in, given that only a few of them are flood environments?

If you have sincerely not seen in the mountains you have visited, mountains of evidence that contradict your belief in the flood, then you have not looked with open eyes.

Psalm 119 verse 18.

Its called Catastrophic Stratification.

 

[Loudmouth]

God created a Complete earth, and complete ecologies, in all of its completeness in a moment of time,

Does this include fake fossils that were in the ground from the moment the Earth was created?

it was allowed to continue for 1650 years and then it was destroyed, remade, and reconstituted.

1,650 years is not enough time to produce these deposits. We are talking about 2,000 feet of just crinoids, not to mention all of the other sediments found under these deposits.

considering all the forces involved in this CONTROLLED reconstruction I'm sure there are many factors that you are neglecting, you are proceeding from the assumption that time and nature are the only forces at work, and that is simply not true, the world before the flood was extremely different than the present world, I would say the present world represent a very small percentage of what it once was.

What evidence do you have for any other forces? Simply asserting that they exist is not evidence.

 

[Loudmouth]

Its called Catastrophic Stratification.

Catastrophic stratification does not produce 2,000 feet of disarticulated crinoid plates.

 

[Hallstone]

What are these other forces and where is the evidence for them? How would those forces produce halos that are identical to the ones we would expect from millions of years of decay?



Sorry, but you don't get to make stuff up as a refutation of things that actually exist. You need to present evidence for this alternate mechanism for producing uranium radiohalos.



Please present the evidence.

Just one instance would be alterations in the magnetic field, or rather the release of enormous amounts of electromagnetic radiation coming from the alteration of the earths core, could be one of the forces at work, alternating magnetic signatures in lava beds and rifts have been documented to exist all over the world, so I would say this is one force that could affect your halos that maybe you have not considered.

 

[Loudmouth]

Just one instance would be alterations in the magnetic field, or rather the release of enormous amounts of electromagnetic radiation coming from the alteration of the earths core, could be one of the forces at work, alternating magnetic signatures in lava beds and rifts have been documented to exist all over the world, so I would say this is one force that could affect your halos that maybe you have not considered.

How would that produce uranium radiohalos?

 

[Ophiolite]

Its called Catastrophic Stratification.

You can call it Fred if you wish, but giving it a name does not account for any of the points I have mentioned. Will you now make a serious attempt to address my question?

 

[46AND2]

If the only force at work was time, then I might be persuaded to consider this logic, but I know that time itself is a created thing, and it is not, and was not the only force at work in the creation of the universe, and the re-creation of the planet 4500 years ago. There are many forces that can come to bear on catastrophic events such as pressure, temperature, salinity, gas percentages, magnetic field intensity, and other sources of radiation, and I'm sure there could be other forces that are not even detectable to us, so I cant see your theory as being concrete, actually it could be seen as proof of the re-creation of the planet. this one site gives an interesting dimension to your theory http://creation.com/radiohalosstartling-evidence-of-catastrophic-geologic-processes-on-a-young-earth

Polonium halos are better explained as radon halos, which is an inert gas that can migrate away from their uranium source. The decay energy of radon is nearly equal to that of polonium and therefore their halos are indistinguishable from each other.

Secondly, I already discussed why an accelerated decay cannot explain uranium halos. If you change the decay rate, you change the decay energy. If you change the decay energy, you change the distance the damage occurs in the mineral. The radius we observe in uranium halos is consistent with the decay energy we observe with uranium decay, which means it must have taken millions of years to create the halos and that the rate of that decay must have been constant over that time.