Election's Historicity (Doctrinal Counter Perspective)

[Hammster]

Determinists like to ignore entire words. By determinist logic, the Holy Ghost was too inept to write the word "Some" instead of "All".

We just understand that “all” has multiple definitions.

 

[Grip Docility]

We just understand that “all” has multiple definitions.

I once knew a Great man that loathed Gnat strainers, used by men to neglect the Most Lofty matters of the Law, like justice, mercy and faithfulness.

 

[Hammster]

I once knew a Great man that loathed Gnat strainers, used by men to neglect the Most Lofty matters of the Law, like justice, mercy and faithfulness.

Cool story, bro.

 

[Grip Docility]

Cool story, bro.

Please stop goading...

Goad: 1. to provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate some action or reaction.

 

[Grip Docility]

And, now for intermission... A solo by a Rock n Roll kitty...

 

[Hammster]

Please stop goading...

Goad: 1. to provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate some action or reaction.

You told a random story. I responded.

 

[Grip Docility]

You told a random story. I responded.

The word All is argued over, as if straining it with a gnat strainer, to reduce it's scope to some, by some. This takes the very character of Mercy, Justice and Faithfulness away from God.

If I say, All of the world is hurtling towards death... and some individual argues that the word All means part of a group, or some of the world, I will leave the matter alone. The grave awaits all of us.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of Christ left the word All, up to interpretation, because 1500 years after it was written, some sinful human theologian discovered that all really should have read "Some"?

 

[Hammster]

The word All is argued over, as if straining it with a gnat strainer, to reduce it's scope to some, by some. This takes the very character of Mercy, Justice and Faithfulness away from God.

If I say, All of the world is hurtling towards death... and some individual argues that the word All means part of a group, or some of the world, I will leave the matter alone. The grave awaits all of us.

Do you believe that the Holy Spirit of Christ left the word All, up to interpretation, because 1500 years after it was written, some sinful human theologian discovered that all really should have read "Some"?

What I do know is that pas can mean all without exception, or all of one type. Context determines its usage. So far you’ve balked every time I bring up context.

 

[Grip Docility]

What I do know is that pas can mean all without exception, or all of one type. Context determines its usage. So far you’ve balked every time I bring up context.

One post response with the word Whosoever. (Whoever) This is forensic evidence, within scripture... found within 50 verses about what the word "Whoever" means. Will a man determined to empty the cross of it's power believe what he forensically sees? No. He will quibble with one word in scripture to shoehorn human doctrine into ONE Single word. If that man would do this with one single word, how much more terrible would he be with entire passages of scripture?

Matthew 1:17 Adj-NFP
GRK: Πᾶσαι οὖν αἱ
NAS: So all the generations from Abraham
KJV: So all the generations from
INT: all Therefore the
Matthew 2:3 Adj-NFS
GRK: ἐταράχθη καὶ πᾶσα Ἰεροσόλυμα μετ'
NAS: [this], he was troubled, and all Jerusalem
KJV: and all Jerusalem
INT: he was troubled and all Jerusalem with
Matthew 2:4 Adj-AMP
GRK: καὶ συναγαγὼν πάντας τοὺς ἀρχιερεῖς
NAS: Gathering together all the chief priests
KJV: when he had gathered all the chief priests
INT: And having gathered together all the chief priests
Matthew 2:16 Adj-AMP
GRK: ἀποστείλας ἀνεῖλεν πάντας τοὺς παῖδας
NAS: and slew all the male children
KJV: and slew all the children
INT: having sent forth he put to death all the boys
Matthew 2:16 Adj-DNP
GRK: καὶ ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς ὁρίοις
NAS: who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity,
KJV: and in all the coasts thereof,
INT: and in all the vicinity
Matthew 3:5 Adj-NFS
GRK: Ἰεροσόλυμα καὶ πᾶσα ἡ Ἰουδαία
NAS: was going out to him, and all Judea
KJV: Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and
INT: Jerusalem and all Judea
Matthew 3:5 Adj-NFS
GRK: Ἰουδαία καὶ πᾶσα ἡ περίχωρος
NAS: Judea and all the district around
KJV: and all the region round about
INT: Judea and all the region around
Matthew 3:10 Adj-NNS
GRK: δένδρων κεῖται πᾶν οὖν δένδρον
NAS: therefore every tree
KJV: therefore every tree
INT: trees is applied every Therefore tree
Matthew 3:15 Adj-AFS
GRK: ἡμῖν πληρῶσαι πᾶσαν δικαιοσύνην τότε
NAS: for us to fulfill all righteousness.
KJV: us to fulfil all righteousness. Then
INT: to us to fulfill all righteousness Then
Matthew 4:4 Adj-DNS
GRK: ἀλλ' ἐπὶ παντὶ ῥήματι ἐκπορευομένῳ
NAS: ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD
KJV: but by every word that proceedeth
INT: but by every word coming out
Matthew 4:8 Adj-AFP
GRK: δείκνυσιν αὐτῷ πάσας τὰς βασιλείας
NAS: and showed Him all the kingdoms
KJV: him all the kingdoms
INT: shows to him all the kingdoms
Matthew 4:9 Adj-ANP
GRK: Ταῦτά σοι πάντα δώσω ἐὰν
NAS: and he said to Him, All these things
KJV: unto him, All these things
INT: These things to you all will I give if
Matthew 4:23 Adj-AFS
GRK: καὶ θεραπεύων πᾶσαν νόσον καὶ
NAS: and healing every kind
KJV: and healing all manner of sickness and
INT: and healing every disease and
Matthew 4:23 Adj-AFS
GRK: νόσον καὶ πᾶσαν μαλακίαν ἐν
NAS: every kind of disease
KJV: and all manner of disease
INT: disease and every sickness among
Matthew 4:24 Adj-AMP
GRK: προσήνεγκαν αὐτῷ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς
NAS: and they brought to Him all who were ill,
KJV: they brought unto him all sick people
INT: they brought to him all sick
Matthew 5:11 Adj-ANS
GRK: καὶ εἴπωσιν πᾶν πονηρὸν καθ'
NAS: say all kinds of evil
KJV: shall say all manner of evil
INT: and shall say all kinds of evil against
Matthew 5:15 Adj-DMP
GRK: καὶ λάμπει πᾶσιν τοῖς ἐν
NAS: and it gives light to all who are in the house.
KJV: it giveth light unto all that are in
INT: and it shines for all who [are] in
Matthew 5:18 Adj-NNP
GRK: ἕως ἂν πάντα γένηται
NAS: until all is accomplished.
KJV: the law, till all be fulfilled.
INT: until anyhow all come to pass
Matthew 5:22 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ὀργιζόμενος
NAS: But I say to you that everyone who is angry
KJV: That whosoever is angry
INT: to you that every one who is angry with
Matthew 5:28 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ βλέπων
NAS: but I say to you that everyone who looks
KJV: That whosoever looketh
INT: to you that every one that looks upon
Matthew 5:32 Adj-NMS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶς ὁ ἀπολύων
NAS: but I say to you that everyone who divorces
INT: to you that everyone who shall divorce
Matthew 6:29 Adj-DFS
GRK: Σολομὼν ἐν πάσῃ τῇ δόξῃ
NAS: Solomon in all his glory
KJV: Solomon in all his glory
INT: Solomon in all the glory
Matthew 6:32 Adj-ANP
GRK: πάντα γὰρ ταῦτα
NAS: eagerly seek all these things;
KJV: after all these things
INT: all indeed these things
Matthew 6:33 Adj-NNP
GRK: καὶ ταῦτα πάντα προστεθήσεται ὑμῖν
NAS: and His righteousness, and all these things
KJV: and all these things
INT: and these things all will be added to you
Matthew 7:8 Adj-NMS
GRK: πᾶς γὰρ ὁ
NAS: For everyone who asks receives,
KJV: For every one that asketh receiveth;
INT: everyone indeed who
Matthew 7:12 Adj-ANP
GRK: Πάντα οὖν ὅσα
NAS: In everything, therefore, treat
KJV: Therefore all things whatsoever
INT: All things therefore as many as
Matthew 7:17 Adj-NNS
GRK: οὕτως πᾶν δένδρον ἀγαθὸν
NAS: So every good tree
KJV: Even so every good tree
INT: So every tree good
Matthew 7:19 Adj-NNS
GRK: πᾶν δένδρον μὴ
NAS: Every tree that does not bear
KJV: Every tree that bringeth
INT: Every tree not
Matthew 7:21 Adj-NMS
GRK: Οὐ πᾶς ὁ λέγων
NAS: Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord,
KJV: Not every one that saith unto me,
INT: Not everyone who says
Matthew 7:24 Adj-NMS
GRK: Πᾶς οὖν ὅστις
NAS: Therefore everyone who hears
KJV: Therefore whosoever heareth these
INT: Every one therefore whoever
Matthew 7:26 Adj-NMS
GRK: Καὶ πᾶς ὁ ἀκούων
NAS: Everyone who hears these
KJV: And every one that heareth these
INT: and everyone who hears
Matthew 8:16 Adj-AMP
GRK: λόγῳ καὶ πάντας τοὺς κακῶς
NAS: and healed all who were ill.
KJV: and healed all that were sick:
INT: by a word and all who sick

 

[Grip Docility]

Continued:

Matthew 8:32 Adj-NFS
GRK: ἰδοὺ ὥρμησεν πᾶσα ἡ ἀγέλη
NAS: into the swine, and the whole herd
KJV: and, behold, the whole herd of swine
INT: behold rushed all the herd
Matthew 8:33 Adj-ANP
GRK: πόλιν ἀπήγγειλαν πάντα καὶ τὰ
NAS: and reported everything, including
KJV: and told every thing, and
INT: city related everything including the [events]
Matthew 8:34 Adj-NFS
GRK: καὶ ἰδοὺ πᾶσα ἡ πόλις
NAS: And behold, the whole city came
KJV: And, behold, the whole city came out
INT: And behold all the city
Matthew 9:35 Adj-AFP
GRK: τὰς πόλεις πάσας καὶ τὰς
NAS: was going through all the cities
KJV: Jesus went about all the cities and
INT: the cities all and the
Matthew 9:35 Adj-AFS
GRK: καὶ θεραπεύων πᾶσαν νόσον καὶ
NAS: and healing every kind
KJV: and healing every sickness and
INT: and healing every disease and
Matthew 9:35 Adj-AFS
GRK: νόσον καὶ πᾶσαν μαλακίαν
NAS: every kind of disease
KJV: sickness and every disease among
INT: disease and every sickness
Matthew 10:1 Adj-AFS
GRK: καὶ θεραπεύειν πᾶσαν νόσον καὶ
NAS: them out, and to heal every kind
KJV: and to heal all manner of sickness and
INT: and to heal every disease and
Matthew 10:1 Adj-AFS
GRK: νόσον καὶ πᾶσαν μαλακίαν
NAS: every kind of disease
KJV: of sickness and all manner of disease.
INT: disease and every sickness
Matthew 10:22 Adj-GMP
GRK: μισούμενοι ὑπὸ πάντων διὰ τὸ
NAS: You will be hated by all because
KJV: be hated of all [men] for my
INT: hated by all on account of the
Matthew 10:30 Adj-NFP
GRK: τῆς κεφαλῆς πᾶσαι ἠριθμημέναι εἰσίν
NAS: hairs of your head are all numbered.
KJV: head are all numbered.
INT: of the head all numbered are
Matthew 10:32 Adj-NMS
GRK: Πᾶς οὖν ὅστις
NAS: Therefore everyone who confesses
KJV: Whosoever therefore shall confess
INT: Every one therefore who
Matthew 11:13 Adj-NMP
GRK: πάντες γὰρ οἱ
NAS: For all the prophets and the Law
KJV: For all the prophets and
INT: all indeed the
Matthew 11:27 Adj-NNP
GRK: Πάντα μοι παρεδόθη
NAS: All things have been handed over
KJV: All things are delivered unto me
INT: All things to me were delivered
Matthew 11:28 Adj-NMP
GRK: πρός με πάντες οἱ κοπιῶντες
NAS: Come to Me, all who are weary
KJV: unto me, all [ye] that labour and
INT: to me all you who toil
Matthew 12:15 Adj-AMP
GRK: ἐθεράπευσεν αὐτοὺς πάντας
NAS: followed Him, and He healed them all,
KJV: he healed them all;
INT: he healed them all
Matthew 12:23 Adj-NMP
GRK: Καὶ ἐξίσταντο πάντες οἱ ὄχλοι
NAS: All the crowds were amazed,
KJV: And all the people were amazed,
INT: And were amazed all the crowds
Matthew 12:25 Adj-NFS
GRK: εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Πᾶσα βασιλεία μερισθεῖσα
NAS: Jesus said to them, Any kingdom
KJV: unto them, Every kingdom
INT: he said to them Every kingdom having divided
Matthew 12:25 Adj-NFS
GRK: ἐρημοῦται καὶ πᾶσα πόλις ἢ
NAS: itself is laid waste; and any city or
KJV: and every city
INT: is brought to desolation and every city or
Matthew 12:31 Adj-NFS
GRK: λέγω ὑμῖν πᾶσα ἁμαρτία καὶ
NAS: I say to you, any sin
KJV: I say unto you, All manner of sin and
INT: I say to you Every sin and
Matthew 12:36 Adj-NNS
GRK: ὑμῖν ὅτι πᾶν ῥῆμα ἀργὸν
NAS: But I tell you that every careless
KJV: unto you, That every idle word
INT: to you that every word careless
Matthew 13:2 Adj-NMS
GRK: καθῆσθαι καὶ πᾶς ὁ ὄχλος
NAS: and sat down, and the whole crowd
KJV: and sat; and the whole multitude stood
INT: sat down and all the crowd
Matthew 13:19 Adj-GMS
GRK: Παντὸς ἀκούοντος τὸν
NAS: When anyone hears the word
KJV: When any one heareth the wordINT: When any one hears the

 

[Grip Docility]

Continued

Matthew 13:32 Adj-GNP
GRK: μέν ἐστιν πάντων τῶν σπερμάτων
NAS: is smaller than all [other] seeds,
KJV: is the least of all seeds: but
INT: indeed is of all the seeds
Matthew 13:34 Adj-ANP
GRK: Ταῦτα πάντα ἐλάλησεν ὁ
NAS: All these things Jesus
KJV: All these things spake
INT: These things all spoke
Matthew 13:41 Adj-ANP
GRK: βασιλείας αὐτοῦ πάντα τὰ σκάνδαλα
NAS: out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks,
KJV: kingdom all things that offend,
INT: kingdom of him all the causes of sin
Matthew 13:44 Adj-ANP
GRK: καὶ πωλεῖ πάντα ὅσα ἔχει
INT: and he sells all that he has
Matthew 13:46 Adj-ANP
GRK: ἀπελθὼν πέπρακεν πάντα ὅσα εἶχεν
NAS: and sold all that he had
KJV: went and sold all that he had,
INT: having gone away he has sold all things as many as he had
Matthew 13:47 Adj-GNS
GRK: καὶ ἐκ παντὸς γένους συναγαγούσῃ
NAS: and gathering [fish] of every kind;
KJV: gathered of every kind:
INT: and of every kind having gathered together
Matthew 13:51 Adj-ANP
GRK: Συνήκατε ταῦτα πάντα λέγουσιν αὐτῷ
NAS: Have you understood all these things?
KJV: all these things? They say unto him,
INT: Have you understood these things all They say to him
Matthew 13:52 Adj-NMS
GRK: Διὰ τοῦτο πᾶς γραμματεὺς μαθητευθεὶς
NAS: to them, Therefore every scribe
KJV: Therefore every scribe
INT: Because of this every scribe having discipled
Matthew 13:56 Adj-NFP
GRK: αὐτοῦ οὐχὶ πᾶσαι πρὸς ἡμᾶς
NAS: And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where
KJV: are they not all with us?
INT: of him not all with us
Matthew 13:56 Adj-NNP
GRK: τούτῳ ταῦτα πάντα
NAS: [did] this man [get] all these things?
KJV: then hath this [man] all these things?
INT: to this [man] these things all
Matthew 14:20 Adj-NMP
GRK: καὶ ἔφαγον πάντες καὶ ἐχορτάσθησαν
NAS: and they all ate and were satisfied.
KJV: And they did all eat, and
INT: And ate all and were satisfied

 

[Grip Docility]

What I do know is that pas can mean all without exception, or all of one type. Context determines its usage. So far you’ve balked every time I bring up context.

Forensically searching ALL (Not the Reformed definition of what All means)... scripture... Is the safest way to determine if a words contextual meaning should be Abrogated of intended meaning. This is kindergarten level Theological methodology. When Colossians 1:15-20, was discussed, a man denied it's actual contextual flow, per the Holy Spirit of Christ, to support man made commentary.

The methodology of "pas" gets used to abrogate an Ironclad scripture of it's meaning (Col 1:15-20). How did that occur? A man used other scripture which is also clear that All literally means All, but isn't bound to a second usage that makes it "iron clad" in their eyes.... so a man shifts it's meaning to suit their own whims.

What now, if a passage is discussed in short circuited context, demanded by their "prophet", the same individual will then stand on the short circuited context of that one passage and demand that no other passage may be brought in to forensically check said passage.

This logic is faulty.

Here's well over 50 usages of the word "Whoever", "Whosoever' In Greek interlinear.

 

[Grip Docility]

Jesus is the very drawing of the Father. It's not a secret that God is Humble and self sacrificing... to the point of dying at the hands of His very own corrupted Creation. God didn't corrupt man. It was not His will that Man should be corrupted. It was His will that Creation had it's own will. How is this difficult for some?

John 3:16 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.​

John 6:44 No man is able to come to Christ, outside the drawing of the Father.

John 14:8-9 “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?​

John 12:32 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.

Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.​

 

[Clare73]

So, to the Determinist, they do not Repent to God, who Loved them first, as God Loved all?

I don't do "determinist". . .I do Bible.

They are special and better than the Reprobate, better than other people, because they have been selected, while others are rejected? They believe themselves to be the Elect of Israel and thus saved, without having to turn to Jesus and away from their personal will? God Loves them, and Hates the Reprobate?

You think God elects according to merit?

He elected Abraham--not the other Hebrews, Isaac--not Ishmael, Jacob--not Esau, because of merit?

Why would you think that when Scripture is so clear regarding merit in election (Ro 9:10-16)?

 

[Clare73]

Augustine may have shared the understanding of what is termed Calvinist Unconditional Election. One can argue that Augustine, who came out Gnosticism, introduced its Determinism (what you term Monergism) into Christianity. Arguably Calvin revered Augustine and built on his teachings. Although the RCC also reveres Augustine, it does not hold to Determinism or Unconditional Election. I have no strong opinion here and don't read the tea leaves.

Bible Election is about service as Israel, God's people, were Elect but many were not saved. Calvinists like to associate Election with salvation - as in doing so, using the term Elect subtly gives credence to their doctrine that God selects exactly who will be saved.

God is love (1 John 4:8) and thus cares about any one of his creation's lost condition. Above @Clare73 says that God is at best indifferent to the lost, which is not as nasty as what Calvin states. The Bible says that Christ atoned for all people through His suffering (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, Hebrews 2:9) - which seems odd if he does not love all men savingly.

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)​

​

Both @Clare73 and Calvin are in disagreement with Paul on that issue as per all major English translations of 1 Timothy 2:4, God desires all people to be saved.

So all men are saved and Jesus got it wrong--"he who does not believe in the Son is condemned already"? (Jn 3:18).

Are you sure about that?

 

[Grip Docility]

I don't do "determinist". . .I do Bible.

Say again?

My extra-biblical commentary includes NT apostolic teaching.

You think God elects according to merit?

How does God feel about Satanic Nations that Burn their Babies for Ba'al, according to scripture?

He elected Abraham--not the other Hebrews, Isaac--not Ishmael, Jacob--not Esau, because of merit?

Scripture might assist us with these matters, instead of an abysmal rending of Romans 9 by the French.

Genesis 32:
26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, being tested, has offered up Isaac. Even the one having received the promises was offering up his only begotten son,
Genesis 22:16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,

When God swore by His own name, was he lying about why He blessed Abraham?​

Hebrews 11:20 By an act of faith, Isaac reached into the future as he blessed Jacob and Esau. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

Should the author of Hebrews bow to Jehan's poor interpretation of Romans 9?​

Why would you think that when Scripture is so clear regarding the election of Jacob (Ro 9:10-16)?

Romans 9 is the heart beat of Jehan's Doctrines. Are we still going to pretend that something is not so that is so?

 

[Grip Docility]

​

So all men are saved and Jesus got it wrong--"he who does not believe in the Son is condemned already"? (Jn 3:18).

Are you sure about that?

Context... with my Bible Commentary.. aka... The Bible.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (not wise to "pas" over context, here.)
John 16:9 9 The world’s sin is unbelief in me;

Paul and Jesus know what they are talking about, more than a French Theosophist, right?

 

[Clare73]

Say again?

Spoken as one with a somewhat lack of literacy.

How does God feel about Satanic Nations that Burn their Babies for Ba'al, according to scripture?

Scripture might assist us with these matters, instead of an abysmal rending of Romans 9 by the French.

Feel free to exegete Ro 9 in agreement with its context and all Scripture.

 

[Grip Docility]

Spoken as one with a somewhat lack of literacy.

Ad Hominem

Feel free to exegete Ro 9 in agreement with its context and all Scripture.

Link Here. Done.

 

[John Mullally]

Both @Clare73 and Calvin are in disagreement with Paul on that issue as per all major English translations of 1 Timothy 2:4, God desires all people to be saved. Also in all major English translations of 1 Timothy 4:10, God is the Savior of all people. God is not the Savior of people He does not desire to save.

​

So all men are saved and Jesus got it wrong--"he who does not believe in the Son is condemned already"? (Jn 3:18).

Are you sure about that?

As you well know I never said that. If you read further in my post (see below) you would see that I provide a brief explanation why everyone is not saved.

There is not much difference between twisting another's word and twisting God's word.

Jesus is not like the Pharisee in the Parable of the Good Samaritan who has no heart for the perishing. From scripture, we know that our God who is Love (1 John 4:8) sincerely desires everyone to come to know Him (1 Timothy 2:4), but just because I don’t believe that God forces His love on to everyone, doesn’t mean that I question His sincerity. Many are not saved because God leaves some decision making with people. If God did not, He would be unjust to judge us for doing what we could not avoid.