Is God a liar?

BobRyan

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You make it seem

"You make it seem"???

I think "I make it seem" that the two of you are making accusations. In the "two birds of a feather" intro I hope you see me lumping the two of you into a harmonious pool of false accusers not at all opposed to each other.

============== in this post we have "two birds of a feather" ---

All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds. *IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...

Did God lie?
And if God lied, why?

What do you believe?

You have very strongly contradicted yourself here.

First you say: "It is an impossibility for God to lie..." which is true, but not for the reason you cite. After claiming God cannot lie, you then paint God as a frivolous, capricious and unreliable Being; that is horribly heretical in substance.

God cannot violate His own nature; alternatively, God cannot NOT be God. It is the only thing God cannot do.

Interesting accusations.
 
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Speedwell

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hnmm you call the Bible myth and then argue that your view of myth of resurrection is not connected to your view of the Bible account of our Creator God as myth?

I find your logic "illusive" just then.

If his logic seems illusive to you it may be because you have misunderstood his premise. He did not call the Bible as a whole a myth as you assert.
 
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Open Heart

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If his logic seems illusive to you it may be because you have misunderstood his premise. He did not call the Bible as a whole a myth as you assert.
There are always those in here that don't read posts well, either by mistake, or by deliberate laziness.
 
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BobRyan

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I love this point -

This is completely unconnected and irrational statement. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is unaffected by the myth of YEC, other than confusing the issue.

hnmm you call the Bible myth and then argue that your view of myth of resurrection is not connected to your view of the Bible account of our Creator God as myth?

I find your logic "illusive" just then.
 
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BobRyan

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I'm not sure I understand your question. What I propose is taking the various stories which were compiled into Genesis 1-11 for what they are, at least what historical and literary scholarship suggests that they are.

That would be a welcomed change.

remember this?

Darwin and Dawkins both looked into this and came to the same conclusion - better to "mock the Bible" in their POV.

The T.E. quote above is not the only one who claims that his Christianity was being set aside by belief in the doctrine on origins found in evolution -

Darwin also claimed that faith in evolutionism destroyed Christianity for him - ...


-- Darwinism leads to atheism according to a number of prominent scientists.

When I said in the OP that "rejecting Romans1 is a 'distinctively atheist' position" - I refer to this

Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse


Darwinism's ability to destroy christian faith in those that accept it (given a long enough period of time) - is something that Christians 'should not notice' say 'some' in the Christian community. Others argue it should not be discussed so it can continue its work without detection.


"Among leading scientists in the field of evolution, 87% deny existence of God, 88% disbelieve in life after death, and 90% reject idea that evolution is directed Toward an “ultimate purpose.” 12 "
from http://www.kmlhs.org/UserFiles/Serv...e/FACULTY_FILES/Bartelt/losingfaith020214.pdf



Darwin's Christianity - destroyed by belief in evolution
===================================

Whilst on board the Beagle I was quite orthodox, and remember being heartily laughed at by several of the officers (though themselves orthodox) for quoting the Bible as an unanswerable authority on some point of morality. I suppose it was the novelty of the argument that amused thee.



But I had gradually come by this time, i.e. 1836 to 1839, to see that the Old Testament was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindus….

By further reflecting… that the more we know of the fixed laws of nature the more incredible do miracle become, - that the men of the time were ignorant and credulous to a degree almost incomprehensible to us,- that the Gospels cannot be proved to have been written simultaneously with the events,- that they differ in many important details…

I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation…. But I was very unwilling to give up my belief; I feel sure of this, for I can well remember often and often inventing day-dreams of old letters between distinguished Romans… which confirmed in the most striking manner all that was written in the Gospels. But I found it more and more difficult, with free scope given to my imagination, to invent evidence which would suffice to convince me. Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct.



I can, indeed, hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true;

Darwin (1887) III p. 308 omits the last sentence which is included in the later version of the work [Barlow (1958)].

=====================


Romans 1 says that our infinite God has made what we see around us - and that HIS "invisible attributes are CLEARLY SEEN in the things that have been MADE" -

Obviously atheists would not agree with that Romans 1 statement. Rejecting Romans 1 is a "distinctively atheist" position.

Atheists often don't mind "admitting" to what the Bible says - they simply reject what it says. As in rejecting the virgin birth, the bodily ascension of Christ, the miracles of the bible and in this example they freely admit to what the Bible says - while rejecting it as 'truth'.

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

=======================

That is the opinion of professors not at all inclined to accept the 7 day creation week that we find in Gen 1:2-2:3 yet they can still 'read' and point to the author's intent - whether they agree with the author or not.


That is where we read this --

Atheists often don't mind "admitting" to what the Bible says - they simply reject what it says. As in rejecting the virgin birth, the bodily ascension of Christ, the miracles of the bible and in this example they freely admit to what the Bible says - while rejecting it as 'truth'.

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

=======================

That is the opinion of professors not at all inclined to accept the 7 day creation week that we find in Gen 1:2-2:3 yet they can still 'read' and point to the author's intent - whether they agree with the author or not.

==================

T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)
 
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Speedwell

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That would be a welcomed change.

remember this?




That is where we read this --

Atheists often don't mind "admitting" to what the Bible says - they simply reject what it says. As in rejecting the virgin birth, the bodily ascension of Christ, the miracles of the bible and in this example they freely admit to what the Bible says - while rejecting it as 'truth'.

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

=======================

That is the opinion of professors not at all inclined to accept the 7 day creation week that we find in Gen 1:2-2:3 yet they can still 'read' and point to the author's intent - whether they agree with the author or not.

==================

T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)

You are a very poor sophist. You have handed me that Barr quote several times, even though I agree entirely with it and have said so.

On the other hand, you studiously avoid answering any of my questions about your position.
 
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BobRyan

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Atheists often don't mind "admitting" to what the Bible says - they simply reject what it says. As in rejecting the virgin birth, the bodily ascension of Christ, the miracles of the bible and in this example they freely admit to what the Bible says - while rejecting it as 'truth'.

Professor James Barr, Regius Professor of Hebrew at the University of Oxford, has written:

‘Probably, so far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Genesis 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that: (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s flood was understood to be world-wide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark. Or, to put it negatively, the apologetic arguments which suppose the "days" of creation to be long eras of time, the figures of years not to be chronological, and the flood to be a merely local Mesopotamian flood, are not taken seriously by any such professors, as far as I know.’

=======================

That is the opinion of professors not at all inclined to accept the 7 day creation week that we find in Gen 1:2-2:3 yet they can still 'read' and point to the author's intent - whether they agree with the author or not.

==================

T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)

You are a very poor sophist. You have handed me that Barr quote several times, even though I agree entirely with it and have said so.

Well then you miss the point entirely. My argument is not that you do not have the free will to run with the atheist argument that the Bible is wrong and blind-faith-evolutionism is right.

My point is that Christians on this sort of board (though not all) will tend to see right through that flawed suggestion that you make.
 
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Speedwell

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T.E's have found a "tiny island" for themselves and Bible believing Christians are not going there with them - neither are the atheists and agnostics apparently. (I don't see many Hindus or Buddhists arguing that the Bible is true - except it is bent to preach darwinism)



Well then you miss the point entirely. My argument is not that you do not have the free will to run with the atheist argument that the Bible is wrong and blind-faith-evolutionism is right.

My point is that Christians on this sort of board (though not all) will tend to see right through that flawed suggestion that you make.

You seem to be arguing with that small subset of Christians who think that the Genesis creation stories need to be rationalized somehow with the findings of science--not with me. You pay little attention to what I post, except to occasionally misrepresent it, and never answer any of my direct questions. Can you not argue your point of view honestly?
Have you no notion of how your misrepresentations and shallow, transparent sophistries harm your cause and the cause of Christianity generally?
 
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BobRyan

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You seem to be arguing with that small subset of Christians who think that the Genesis creation stories need to be rationalized somehow with the findings of science--not with me.

Are they really that hard to find on "Christian Forums"???

You pay little attention to what I post, except to occasionally misrepresent it, and never answer any of my direct questions. Can you not argue your point of view honestly?
Have you no notion of how your misrepresentations and shallow, transparent sophistries harm your cause and the cause of Christianity generally?

Other than name-calling --- do you have a point?

I scanned back for a few pages and have not seen you make one - and in your posts here you don't seem inclined to state one.

Is it a "secret"??
 
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pat34lee

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All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth. Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds.

You began with two statements of fact, when they are anything
but factual. Then you use these non-facts to ask others if God is
wrong or Moses was a liar.

Can you point to anything - at all - and say, "that looks billions
of years old"? EVERY item that is supposedly millions of years
old or older, can only be theorized to be old. On the other hand,
they can be theorized to be no more than about 6000 years old.
The difference? You either accept the word of men in rebellion
against God (humanists and atheists mostly), or you believe God.

There is no simpler way to put it.
 
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Speedwell

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Are they really that hard to find on "Christian Forums"???



Other than name-calling --- do you have a point?

I scanned back for a few pages and have not seen you make one - and in your posts here you don't seem inclined to state one.

Is it a "secret"??
Certainly it is no secret. I am here to ask questions. For example:

Creationists often advance Exodus 20:11 as proof that God explicitly and in His own words corroborated the seven day creation in His delivery of the Ten Commandments.

My question (as yet unanswered) is, if so, how do you explain the change of voicing between Ex 20:10 and 20:11 which (especially in a language like Hebrew which lacks quotation marks) would ordinarily indicate a scribal insertion rather than the direct speech of God? Why does it not in this case?

It's one of the many obvious questions to which you should have a ready answer. Since you don't, I don't mind needling you about it.

The other thing is, that you--and most other Creationists, for that matter--seem singularly ill-informed about what other kinds of Christians believe about the Bible (No offence meant. Nobody can know everything) The trouble is, you don't shrink from making stuff up and then maligning people about it.

I don't mind needling you about that, either.
 
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BobRyan

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Certainly it is no secret. I am here to ask questions. For example:

Creationists often advance Exodus 20:11 as proof that God explicitly and in His own words corroborated the seven day creation in His delivery of the Ten Commandments.

Let's see how that might be the case -- so much so that even the atheist evolutionists themselves would admit to it.


Ex 20:
8 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy SIX days you shall labor...
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I think you will agree with me that it wont take an advanced degree in reading comprehension to see the point. Even James Barr admits to seeing the point - though he like all other atheists would argue that the Bible is "simply wrong" when it contradicts blind faith evolutionism's doctrines on origins.



My question (as yet unanswered) is, if so, how do you explain the change of voicing between Ex 20:10 and 20:11 which (especially in a language like Hebrew which lacks quotation marks)

The Orthodox Rabbis themselves admit that the language in the text does not allow for the eisegetic 'insert' of alternate definitions for the term "Yom" for day in the middle of the commandment. Nothing in the text supports such eisegesis of "blind preference" into the text.

And of course the content of the text itself says it was not only spoken by God - but also written by God on stone. Here again is not inflated inference mangled into accusation against the text -- rather it is the direct statement found in the text itself.

Atheists coming around with 'that is a lie - the text is lying' would be of course the natural response from our atheist friends using liberal amounts of inflated inference heavily mangled into accusation against the text as if this justifies their guesswork.

I would naturally come to expect that of them - wouldn't you?

It's one of the many obvious questions to which you should have a ready answer. Since you don't, I don't mind needling you about it.

The trouble is, you don't shrink from making stuff up and then maligning people about it.

I don't mind needling you about that, either.

As an Anglican you might be arguing that the Bible is not the Word of God and so cannot be trusted -- if so then your position is not at all without loud support from fellow evolutionists - who are atheists.
 
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Speedwell

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Let's see how that might be the case -- so much so that even the atheist evolutionists themselves would admit to it.


Ex 20:
8 "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy SIX days you shall labor...
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Gen 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

I think you will agree with me that it wont take an advanced degree in reading comprehension to see the point. Even James Barr admits to seeing the point - though he like all other atheists would argue that the Bible is "simply wrong" when it contradicts blind faith evolutionism's doctrines on origins.

Evidently you don't understand my question. Let's review the grammar.

First person voicing: "I am the Lord God"

Second person voicing: "You are the Lord God."

Third person voicing: "He is the Lord God."

Have you any idea why God is talking about Himself in the third person in Ex 20:11, when that grammatical structure would ordinarily indicate someone else talking about God?



As an Anglican you might be arguing that the Bible is not the Word of God and so cannot be trusted -- if so then your position is not at all without loud support from fellow evolutionists - who are atheists.

Not very likely. My point has always been that the Bible is the Word of God and is to be trusted even though the Genesis stories are not 100% accurate literal history.
 
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pat34lee

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My question (as yet unanswered) is, if so, how do you explain the change of voicing between Ex 20:10 and 20:11 which (especially in a language like Hebrew which lacks quotation marks) would ordinarily indicate a scribal insertion rather than the direct speech of God? Why does it not in this case?

He also changed between verses 2 and 3. And 5 is different than 4 and 6.

One thing I hadn't thought about much. The day, week, month and year
are tied to the movements of the earth, moon and sun. What is the seven
day week tied to? Nothing but the creation week. And it is near universal
to all cultures.
 
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BobRyan

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Evidently you don't understand my question. Let's review the grammar.

First person voicing: "I am the Lord God"

Second person voicing: "You are the Lord God."

Third person voicing: "He is the Lord God."



"The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

Matt 12 "31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;"

Have you any idea why God is talking about Himself in the third person in Ex 20:11, when that grammatical structure would ordinarily indicate someone else talking about God?

Neither of my examples in Mark and Matt 12 use only first person grammar when Christ speaks about Himself.

But your argument from extreme-inference alone argues that Christ is not speaking because He did not use first person grammar? Are you serious??
 
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Speedwell

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"The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath" Mark 2:28

Matt 12 "31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;"



Neither of my examples in Mark and Matt 12 use only first person grammar when Christ speaks about Himself.

But your argument from extreme-inference alone argues that Christ is not speaking because He did not use first person grammar? Are you serious??

Perfectly, but change of voicing is only one indication among many of who is speaking. It can also be introduced to provide emphasis, as in Matt 12:32, and for various other literary purposes.

An author is always conscious of voicing as a way of transmitting meaning, so it must be paid attention to when interpreting a text. As pat34lee pointed out, the voicing of Ex 20 is uneven. The question is, why? It didn't happen by accident. You deny that it differentiates between God's reported speech and the remarks of a transcriber. (In fact, you rely on Ex 20:11 being the reported speech of God as a proof of your YEC doctrine.) Yet you have no alternative explanation for the voicing.
 
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pat34lee

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Perfectly, but change of voicing is only one indication among many of who is speaking. It can also be introduced to provide emphasis, as in Matt 12:32, and for various other literary purposes.

An author is always conscious of voicing as a way of transmitting meaning, so it must be paid attention to when interpreting a text. As pat34lee pointed out, the voicing of Ex 20 is uneven. The question is, why? It didn't happen by accident. You deny that it differentiates between God's reported speech and the remarks of a transcriber. (In fact, you rely on Ex 20:11 being the reported speech of God as a proof of your YEC doctrine.) Yet you have no alternative explanation for the voicing.

Do you need other explanations for the 'voice' of the speaker
than he used a particular writing style? Part of the problem
could be the different translations and copies of copies over
the years. Or, it could be that Yahweh intended that we get
Genesis and the rest as is, intending for us to dig for the truth
of his word. Like Yeshua with the parables, why wouldn't Yah
hide the truth from the casual reader?

In case my position on the matter is unclear, I believe Moses
wrote all of Genesis - Deuteronomy except the ending, which
was by Joshua. And I believe in 6 day creation about 6000 years
ago, and a day of rest, and a millennial sabbath set to begin in
a very short time. There is nothing in scripture that points to an
ancient earth, without making a mockery of the rest of scripture.
 
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Open Heart

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You began with two statements of fact, when they are anything
but factual. Then you use these non-facts to ask others if God is
wrong or Moses was a liar.

Can you point to anything - at all - and say, "that looks billions
of years old"? EVERY item that is supposedly millions of years
old or older, can only be theorized to be old. On the other hand,
they can be theorized to be no more than about 6000 years old.
The difference? You either accept the word of men in rebellion
against God (humanists and atheists mostly), or you believe God.

There is no simpler way to put it.
I am actually not claiming that God is wrong or that Moses is a liar. My actual claim is that Creationists misunderstand Genesis 1 when they read it literally. They think the genre is a history text and its not. The genre is a Creation myth -- it is designed to teach us that God created. But it is not literal. There are many instances in the Bible of stories that are not literal. For example, Jesus' parables are not historical, not literal. For example, the story of the Prodigal Son teaches us about How how God welcomes us back even after we wander far off into sin, if only we will turn around and come home. But there was no literal son and father of the story. In the same way, Genesis 1 teaches us that God created, but there was no literal 6 days.

The earth doesn't "look" billions of years old. It MEASURES billions of years old, or at least the oldest rocks do. (Technically it could be older than the oldest rocks because even older rocks good have been subducted and destroyed.) Do you even know the basics of Radiometric Dating? Certain atoms in the rock begin by being radioactive isotopes. These isotopes decay at an unchanging rate. That means if you mathematically compare the amount of the isotopes to the amount of decay products, you can tell how old the rock is. This is not guesswork; this is SCIENCE. So 6000 years is disproven. Period.

And radiometric dating is, btw, just one of a great many proofs that the earth is way older than 6000 years. For example, there is a tree in Sweden that we know from tree rings is at least 9550 years old. Ice sheets collect in yearly layers like tree rings. We have ice sheets (glaciers) that have more than 700,000 layers. Mitochondrial Eve (the one woman that all women are genetically descended from, would have had to have existed between 99,000 to 234,000 years ago in order for present variations to exist. Coral Reefs are forms by corals and their breakdown into calcium deposits and residues that accumulate extremely slowly. A reef as large as the Great Barrier Reef takes about 25 million years to form. I could go on and on. Here is a link to an overwhelmingly long list of proofs for an earth older than 10,000 years: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation

This is TRUTH. And all truth belongs to God.
 
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pat34lee

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This is TRUTH. And all truth belongs to God.

First (or last in the post) mistake. Facts and theories and truth
are all different things. And as I said, nothing you see screams
"I'm billions of years old!" You have to believe scientists and
their tests over the one who created everything, including the
radiation they misuse in their attempts to render him irrelevant.

I won't go through each item and show you how wrong you are
to accept it blindly. Yahweh is the only one worthy of that faith
in the first place. I will let you begin with the following links if
you care to know how much you've been duped by humanism
disguised as science.

http://creationtoday.org/radiometric-dating-is-it-accurate/
http://creation.com/the-way-it-really-is-little-known-facts-about-radiometric-dating
https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-for-creation/six-evidences-of-young-earth/

Of course, you can dig up other sites that refute these facts, and I can dig up more
that refute theirs, and so on. Eventually, it comes down to faith, and mine is in Yahweh.

If you believe in a god who created death, disease and suffering, that is no god.
 
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