Do Hebrews 3:6 and/or 3:14 prove the P of TULIP?

[TaylorSexton]

Amazing how people attack a person's character instead of dealing with the questions asked. Sir, this is no game; I don't play games with God's word.

I addressed both your assertions (quite thoroughly, actually) and your character, both of which are proving to be deficient in this discussion. If you do not play games with God's Word, prove it: Stop insisting on exegetical fallacies.

Isn't that what salvation is - being gracious to someone instead of being harsh?

Yes, but that doesn't then mean that being gracious is always saving. That is a fallacy in logic.

Is Luke speaking of God's grace? I didn't think so. Let's stick with God's grace.

I see you are understanding, now. Not all uses of the word "grace" is saving grace, or even God's grace. I am happy to see you are understanding your error.

Where does it say any grace is a saving, regenerating power of God?

Ephesians 2:5, 8

Of course James can't be speaking about saving grace, that would put you in a bind. You have to go a different route to satisfy your beliefs.

I am going the route that Scripture as a whole, linguistics and exegesis demand.

So, if unregenerate people abstain from sexual immorality, it does not please God? What kind of thinking is this?

It is biblical thinking. Without faith it is impossible to please God. All our righteousness are as filthy rags. The teaching of Scripture is clear (if you would only believe it): "Those who are in the realm of the flesh (i.e., unregenerate) cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8). What is so difficult to understand about this? It is plain language to me.

The Bible does not say grace is necessary to be humble. Again, you are adding to what the Bible says to please yourself.

Yes, it does. Is humility pleasing to God? Of course. Well, Scripture says that one cannot please God without regeneration (Rom. 8:8). Therefore, it is a perfectly logical deduction that regeneration (grace) is necessary to be humble, or anything else that would be pleasing to God. The Bible is plain if you would simply believe it.

I also find it interesting that I am walking through all of my points exegetically, yet all you can say is, "You have to say that to please yourself." How arrogant and childish. You call me down for calling you a child, and then you proceed to act like a child. What hypocrisy. If you are not going to back your statements/rebuttals up with Scripture, as opposed to ad hominem assumption, then please, by all means, do something else.

 

[samir]

Fatalism is blind, impersonal, unintelligent. Predestination is a God who works through means to accomplish his ordained purpose. To say that there is no point is doing or discussing anything simply because it is already predestined is resigning to blind fate, not submission to a God who works his ordained purpose through means. It is a common error made by those outside of Reformed theology.

So you agree that God determined everyone's fate before they were born and there is nothing anyone can do about it, correct? Your only disagreement is that you think it's still worth discussing, correct?

 

[EmSw]

I addressed both your assertions (quite thoroughly, actually) and your character, both of which are proving to be deficient in this discussion. If you do not play games with God's Word, prove it: Stop insisting on exegetical fallacies.

Yes, but that doesn't then mean that being gracious is always saving. That is a fallacy in logic.

I see you are understanding, now. Not all uses of the word "grace" is saving grace, or even God's grace. I am happy to see you are understanding your error.

Ephesians 2:5, 8

I am going the route that Scripture as a whole, linguistics and exegesis demand.

It is biblical thinking. Without faith it is impossible to please God. All our righteousness are as filthy rags. The teaching of Scripture is clear (if you would only believe it): "Those who are in the realm of the flesh (i.e., unregenerate) cannot please God" (Rom. 8:8). What is so difficult to understand about this? It is plain language to me.

Yes, it does. Is humility pleasing to God? Of course. Well, Scripture says that one cannot please God without regeneration (Rom. 8:8). Therefore, it is a perfectly logical deduction that regeneration (grace) is necessary to be humble, or anything else that would be pleasing to God. The Bible is plain if you would simply believe it.

I also find it interesting that I am walking through all of my points exegetically, yet all you can say is, "You have to say that to please yourself." How arrogant and childish. You call me down for calling you a child, and then you proceed to act like a child. What hypocrisy. If you are not going to back your statements/rebuttals up with Scripture, as opposed to ad hominem assumption, then please, by all means, do something else.

Calvinism has taught you well. I've seen others act this way, that is, they are above others, because anyone who disagrees with them, let's see, are unsaved, are unregenerate, can't understand anything, do not know how to exegete, and now I can add, hypocrite, arrogant, and childish.

Calvinism is truly the elite clubhouse reserved only for those who believe in its beliefs. All others are below and can only look up to the elitist. I can hear them saying, 'Thank you God that I am not like these other people.'

 

[samir]

Calvinism has taught you well. I've seen others act this way, that is, they are above others, because anyone who disagrees with them, let's see, are unsaved, are unregenerate, can't understand anything, do not know how to exegete, and now I can add, hypocrite, arrogant, and childish.

Calvinism is truly the elite clubhouse reserved only for those who believe in its beliefs. All others are below and can only look up to the elitist. I can hear them saying, 'Thank you God that I am not like these other people.'

I noticed the same thing dealing with Calvinists in real life. It's impossible to get through to them because they are so puffed up with pride and think they know it all that I try to avoid them as much as possible.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Calvinism has taught you well. I've seen others act this way, that is, they are above others, because anyone who disagrees with them, let's see, are unsaved, are unregenerate, can't understand anything, do not know how to exegete, and now I can add, hypocrite, arrogant, and childish.

Calvinism is truly the elite clubhouse reserved only for those who believe in its beliefs. All others are below and can only look up to the elitist. I can hear them saying, 'Thank you God that I am not like these other people.'

I noticed the same thing dealing with Calvinists in real life. It's impossible to get through to them because they are so puffed up with pride and think they know it all that I try to avoid them as much as possible.

What is so ironic is that it is you two are the ones who are engaging in ad hominem. When did I ever even imply that you are unregenerate, unsaved, or can't understand anything? That is why I called your behavior hypocritical (I did not call you a hypocrite), arrogant, and childish.

Your behavior is hypocritical because you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of, and you haven't even backed up what you believe with Scripture or logic—just opinion. You attack my character after you accuse me of attacking your character. And from that, you (two) gather that I think I am elite, or in some special "club." Pure, brazen hypocrisy.

You are childish because you refuse to answer my statements, but rather merely resort to ad hominem, reductionism, misrepresentation, and/or straw men.

You are arrogant because of your hypocrisy.

As for you, "Samir," if you wish to avoid me, by all means, please do. It would be far more Christian than painting me with such a broad, unfair brush. Just because I disagree with you, you then call me puffed up with pride, or, to the other one, that I am "above everyone else." Where did I say that? Is this how you people always engage in discussion, to not back yourselves up but, when cornered, team up and attack character with lies? I truly hope not. That is not Christian behavior.

Again, what unfair arrogance and hypocrisy.

 

[TaylorSexton]

So you agree that God determined everyone's fate before they were born and there is nothing anyone can do about it, correct?

No, that is fatalism, not the divine predestination of a God who works through means.

Your only disagreement is that you think it's still worth discussing, correct?

See the above response. I reject your understanding of my position.

 

[TaylorSexton]

It's simply amazing to me that I can defend my positions exegetically and against all objections, even simply quote Scripture, and I get nothing but stubbornness and attack. It saddens me that the clear message of God's Word would get such vitriol, and yet I am not surprised at all. The God of Scripture is offensive to fallen man, and the friend of no one who believes themselves to be something of themselves.

 

[EmSw]

It's simply amazing to me that I can defend my positions exegetically and against all objections, even simply quote Scripture, and I get nothing but stubbornness and attack. It saddens me that the clear message of God's Word would get such vitriol, and yet I am not surprised at all. The God of Scripture is offensive to fallen man, and the friend of no one who believes themselves to be something of themselves.

So now we are fallen men.

 

[TaylorSexton]

So now we are fallen men.

Aren't we all? Do you deny this foundational biblical truth?

Please, stop playing the victim here. You realize that you have lost your bout with Scripture, and now you are resorting to games.

 

[EmSw]

Aren't we all? Do you deny this foundational biblical truth?

Please, stop playing the victim here. You realize that you have lost your bout with Scripture, and now you are resorting to games.

Who comes forth to the resurrection of life?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Who comes forth to the resurrection of life?

Pardon?

 

[samir]

No, that is fatalism, not the divine predestination of a God who works through means.

Okay. Then I don't know what you believe.

See the above response. I reject your understanding of my position.

If you ever want to explain your position, I'm here.

 

[samir]

As for you, "Samir," if you wish to avoid me, by all means, please do. It would be far more Christian than painting me with such a broad, unfair brush. Just because I disagree with you, you then call me puffed up with pride, or, to the other one, that I am "above everyone else." Where did I say that? Is this how you people always engage in discussion, to not back yourselves up but, when cornered, team up and attack character with lies? I truly hope not. That is not Christian behavior.

My response to EmSw's comment was "I noticed the same thing dealing with Calvinists in real life." I was not referring to you as I don't know enough about you to draw any conclusions.

 

[EmSw]

Pardon?

Who comes forth to the resurrection of life?
Who comes forth the the resurrection of condemnation?

 

[TaylorSexton]

Who comes forth to the resurrection of life?
Who comes forth the the resurrection of condemnation?

I have no idea what you are asking or why.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Okay. Then I don't know what you believe.

Then I would suggest that you don't have a right to be so against something you don't understand.

If you ever want to explain your position, I'm here.

There is a difference between fatalism and predestination. Fatalism says that your destiny will happen regardless of what you do. That is not biblical, because what we do does affect what our destiny is. If someone is predestined to hell, it is not regardless of what they do. If they were to believe, they would be saved. But, they won't believe, so they won't be saved. They go to hell not because they were predestined, but because they want it, deserve it, and refused to trust God. Fatalism says that a person predestined to hell will there regardless of whether they believe, repent, confess, etc. That is simply not biblical. It is not that a person predestined to hell cannot do anything about it, it is that they will not.

 

[Freedom Now]

Then I would suggest that you don't have a right to be so against something you don't understand.



There is a difference between fatalism and predestination. Fatalism says that your destiny will happen regardless of what you do. That is not biblical, because what we do does affect what our destiny is. If someone is predestined to hell, it is not regardless of what they do. If they were to believe, they would be saved. But, they won't believe, so they won't be saved. They go to hell not because they were predestined, but because they want it, deserve it, and refused to trust God. Fatalism says that a person predestined to hell will there regardless of whether they believe, repent, confess, etc. That is simply not biblical. It is not that a person predestined to hell cannot do anything about it, it is that they will not.

My question for you is ,...


How does one know if they are predestined?


Is every one that is called predestined?

 

[TaylorSexton]

How does one know if they are predestined?

If one can pry into the mind of God, I suppose they could know. Unfortunately, no one can do that. It is not given to us to know these things.

Is every one that is called predestined?

It depends on what you mean by "called." There are multiple uses of that term through the New Testament.


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[Freedom Now]

If one can pry into the mind of God, I suppose they could know. Unfortunately, no one can do that. It is not given to us to know these things.

How can you for yourself know whether you are saved or not, if you cannot know whether
you are one of the predestined?

 

[TaylorSexton]

How can you for yourself know whether you are saved or not, if you cannot know whether you are one of the predestined?

We are never instructed anywhere in Scripture to base our assurance on whether or not we think we are predestined. Again, that is simply not given for us to know. Our assurance is based on Christ's faithfulness.

Now, there is debate over whether or not true assurance is possible. Some say it is, others say it isn't. I am not sure where I stand on that issue. It seems to me that 1 John was written to outline ways in which we can be assured that we are saved. After all, he says that he wrote "so that you may know that you have eternal life."


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