Do I have to be totally free of sin to retain my salvation?

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason0047 lives in the world of structure, rules, regulations, OT Law, and more. He is unwilling to yield his eisegesic* interpretations to God's exegesic* Truth in application. He just doesn't understand salvation by Grace through Faith, the FREE Gift of God for those who confess Jesus as Savior. Works do not sustain Grace following that confession; Grace embraces the works (ministry) of those who are saved, in Holy recognition of their contribution to the spreading of the Word of God, "Jesus Saves." Every Christian is given opportunities to share his or her faith. That calls for prayer before and after Bible study:

"Father, you know me. You have saved me for all eternity. I give you praise. Holy Spirit, be my instructor, my guide, Your Blessed Presence always with me. In the Precious Name of Jesus, Amen!"

*Be sure to look up unfamiliar terminology!

Actually, I believe the OT Law was fulfilled on the cross by Jesus. This is why the temple veil was torn. But that does not mean that Christ's sacrifce has undone his own words or commands or the commands given by God thru his followers in the New Testament text. It would be silly to say that there are no dire consequences in the after life to looking upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-30). For God to say such a thing and then turn around and say that such a thing does not apply anymore all of a sudden is just meaningless rubbish. Your belief is not consistent with what the New Testament actually says.


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[Winken]

Actually, I believe the OT Law was fulfilled on the cross by Jesus. This is why the temple veil was torn. But that does not mean that Christ's sacrifce has undone his own words or commands or the commands given by God thru his followers in the New Testament text. It would be silly to say that there are dire consequences in the after life to looking upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-30) and then have God turn around and say that such a thing is just meaningless rubbish. Your belief is not consistent with what the New Testament actually says.


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You are waaaaaaaaaaaay off base, Jason0047. Your responses multiply the fears of those who seek our Savior, and may cause authentically born-again Believers to stumble. Scripture cannot be contradictory; your interpretations miss the mark, violating that Truth.

 

[expos4ever]

Don’t forget Romans 7, which shows that we have both the mind of the flesh and the mind of the Spirit operating in us, all the while remaining God’s forgiven and justified children in Christ.

I believe Romans 7 cannot be characterizing the state of the believer - the logic of the transition to chapter 8 seems to rule this out: in 7 Paul is under a law of sin and death, while in 8, he is released from that law through the agency of Christ.

So while I do not think that we need to be sinless to be saved, I don't think Romans 7 is relevant since I am confident it does not describe the state of the Christian.

 

[expos4ever]

You are waaaaaaaaaaaay off base, Jason0047. Your responses multiply the fears of those who seek our Savior, and may cause authentically born-again Believers to stumble. Scripture cannot be contradictory; your interpretations miss the mark, violating that Truth.

Where is your argument? All you have done is deny what another poster has claimed. Please actually engage his argument.

 

[Commander]

expos4ever-Sorry, but what you think is in error(James 5:20). Tertius writes in Romans 6:18 and Romans 6:22 that we are made free from sin. That you do not and can not sin(1 John 3:9). For with God there is neither Jew nor Greek(gentile), just keep reading in Romans 11, and Galatians 3. For He is the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe(1 Timothy 4:10).

 

[Winken]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel, pure and simple. Since it is the gospel, and since we have so many scriptural examples to go by in context, we know that the language here is not saying that salvation is contingent upon hanging on to it, about daily striving to stay saved, or about wondering what our status is. On the contrary, the language here clearly indicates that we have to understand and know that we are believing because God is calling us, the Holy Spirit is witnessing to us; it is a Spiritual enlightenment from Christ, not a fleshly decision to "join the club," to impress others, or out of some self-righteous, egotistical motive.

Ordo salutis

Latin for “order of salvation.” Theologically it is the order of "decrees" by God in bringing about the salvation of individuals.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) calling, 4) regeneration, 5) faith, 6) repentance, 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. Only those "pre-destined" to be saved will be. Others are left out.

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) calling, 2) response in faith, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification. One must continue to strive to please God to retain salvation.

In the Inspired camp, the ordo salutis is 1) Holy Spirit calling, 2) individual response in faith believing (Romans 10:8-13), 3) instantly Spiritually reborn, 4) calm, confident assurance of eternal salvation in God's Amazing Grace; a desire to share His Message with others. Nothing left to do. HE is the Justifier, the Sustainer, the Sanctifier.

HE justifies, not me. HE is the sustainer, not me. HE is the sanctifier, not me.

By Grace are ye saved through Faith, the Gift of God. See Ephesians 2:8-9. I need no other argument, I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died, and that He died for me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well then I suggest you edit your post and put my name in instead of whoever Steve J is? I'll wait for you to do that and then address your responses.

My apologies. It was an honest mistake

When you actually start exegeting scriptures then I'll reply in kind but at this point your accusations are clearly self-serving. I have this feeling you employ this kind of rhetoric on a regular basis accusing people of doing exactly what you do, by eisegeting Scripture. If you're going to make those type of unfounded accusations at least try to prove them.

If you want a full commentary on each chapter in relation to the verse you quote, that will take a lot of time. Quoting the context briefly and providing cross references should be enough to prove my case. I am willing to provide a commentary, but I am just not sure it will help convince you to see differently than what you believe. Also, would you be willing to do the same?

As for unfounded accusations: Well, if you are wrong and the Bible does teach that is possible to stop sinning in this life (Which I believe is true), and you go against that idea, then you are trying to justify sin on some level. For whether a person justifies a lot of sin versus a little bit of sin (with a paying of a lip service with no actual reformation or correction of behavior in their lives) it makes no difference. Making excuses in doing evil on any level would not be acceptable to God because He is holy and righteous.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Your responses multiply the fears of those who seek our Savior,

I am not sure why you think God does not need to be feared.

The Bible says,

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge..." (Proverbs 1:7).

1 "My son, if you will receive my words, and lay up my commandments with you;
2 So that you incline your ear unto wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if you cry after knowledge, and lift up your voice for understanding;
4 If you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shall you understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God."
(Proverbs 2:1-5).

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

"Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding" (Job 28:28).

"And you should not be afraid of those killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. Indeed rather you should fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matthew 10:28 BLB). (Berean Literal Bible).


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[Bible Highlighter]

By steadfast love and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord one turns away from evil. (Proverbs 16:6).

But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? (Luke 23:40).

"To the choirmaster. Of David, the servant of the Lord. Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart; there is no fear of God before his eyes" (Psalms 36:1).

"The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate" (Proverbs 8:13).

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man" (Ecclesiastes 12:13).


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[EmSw]

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man" (Ecclesiastes 12:13)....

I wonder how many people know the whole duty of man. And how many know the conclusion of the whole matter?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wonder how many people know the whole duty of man. And how many know the conclusion of the whole matter?

Good questions. I think we should pray for those who do not know, my friend.


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[Bible Highlighter]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel, pure and simple. Since it is the gospel, and since we have so many scriptural examples to go by in context, we know that the language here is not saying that salvation is contingent upon hanging on to it, about daily striving to stay saved, or about wondering what our status is. On the contrary, the language here clearly indicates that we have to understand and know that we are believing because God is calling us, the Holy Spirit is witnessing to us; it is a Spiritual enlightenment from Christ, not a fleshly decision to "join the club," to impress others, or out of some self-righteous, egotistical motive.

Ordo salutis

Latin for “order of salvation.” Theologically it is the order of "decrees" by God in bringing about the salvation of individuals.

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) calling, 4) regeneration, 5) faith, 6) repentance, 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. Only those "pre-destined" to be saved will be. Others are left out.

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) calling, 2) response in faith, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification. One must continue to strive to please God to retain salvation.

In the Inspired camp, the ordo salutis is 1) Holy Spirit calling, 2) individual response in faith believing (Romans 10:8-13), 3) instantly Spiritually reborn, 4) calm, confident assurance of eternal salvation in God's Amazing Grace; a desire to share His Message with others. Nothing left to do. HE is the Justifier, the Sustainer, the Sanctifier.

HE justifies, not me. HE is the sustainer, not me. HE is the sanctifier, not me.

By Grace are ye saved through Faith, the Gift of God. See Ephesians 2:8-9. I need no other argument, I need no other plea. It is enough that Jesus died, and that He died for me.

The Bible says without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

The Bible also says,

"Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (Hebrews 13:21).


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[Bible Highlighter]

7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."
(Galatians 6:7-9).


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[Bible Highlighter]

expos4ever-Sorry, but what you think is in error(James 5:20). Tertius writes in Romans 6:18 and Romans 6:22 that we are made free from sin. That you do not and can not sin(1 John 3:9).

James 5:20 actually refutes what you believe. James 5:19-20 is talking about the faithful believer getting a believer who has backslidden into sin to repent of his sinful ways so as to come back to the faith to the saving of their soul.

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."
(James 5:19-20).

Verse 19 says, Brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him.
Meaning if any brother errs or strays away from the truth and they convert him back to the faith.

Verse 20 says, Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Meaning let whatever brother know that if they were to convert a sinner (i.e. the brother who erred from the truth) and they were to convert them back to the faith (by getting them to repent of their sins), they would have in effect have saved a soul from spiritual death and helped to cover their sins by pointing them to God's grace and mercy (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, 1 John 1:7 and Proverbs 28:13).

As for Romans 6:18: Being made free from sin does not mean that you can sin and still be saved. It means that you have been set free from being a slave to sin so you can obey God. For Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). For verse 18 says you have become servants or slaves to righteousness.

As for Romans 6:22: When you read this verse in it saying you are free from sin, you also have to read the part of the verse that says you have become a servant of God whereby you will have fruit that is for the purpose of holiness.

As for your quote of 1 John 1:9: You have to read verses 8 and 10.

Verse 8 says,
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

Verse 10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

You believe that you can sin and you are still righteous.

But 1 John 3:7 says,
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."

John 3:20-21 says,

20 "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

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[StanJ]

As for Hebrews 7:27: The high priests did not offer sacrifices for future sin. The animal sacrifices were also a temporary covering for sin and the people had to go before the priest to make an atonement for their same past sins every year. However, Jesus's one time sacrifice takes away all past sin for good. There is no need to keep making animal sacrifices which were a temporary atonement. Jesus offered a one time sacrifice to pay the price for all sin so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (with the responsibilty of man taking care of that gift - like all good gifts). So Hebrews 7:27 is not saying that Jesus paid for your future sins. Such a thing would not make sense in light of 1 John 1:9. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Also, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all sin. So the condition of Christ cleansing you of all sin is walking in the light as he is in the light. It is also in confessing one's sins, too. This perfectly lines up with Proverbs 28:13 and Matthew 12:41 (cf Jonah 3:6-10).

"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."

All sin is all sin including the future.

But you have to keep reading (to get the context), though. Hebrews 10:26 says, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,"
Hebrews 10:38 says,
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."
...

"But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself."

You really need to read the verses I provided rather than deflect to the surrounding verses. Once for all is once for all.

 

[StanJ]

My apologies. It was an honest mistake

I didn't think otherwise and when you said that you had answered them I went back and looked at your post which is why I ignored the other two responses.

If you want a full commentary on each chapter in relation to the verse you quote, that will take a lot of time. Quoting the context briefly and providing cross references should be enough to prove my case. I am willing to provide a commentary, but I am just not sure it will help convince you to see differently than what you believe. Also, would you be willing to do the same?

I didn't ask for a full commentary on each chapter I asked you to exegete the verses you use to come up with your point of view. I have no problem finding online commentaries if I require them. But don't think for an instant that I don't already have a fully informed perspective on this issue.

As for unfounded accusations: Well, if you are wrong and the Bible does teach that is possible to stop sinning in this life (Which I believe is true), and you go against that idea, then you are trying to justify sin on some level. For whether a person justifies a lot of sin versus a little bit of sin (with a paying of a lip service with no actual reformation or correction of behavior in their lives) it makes no difference. Making excuses in doing evil on any level would not be acceptable to God because He is holy and righteous.

Yes, the key word here is IF. It will be up to you to prove that I am by properly exegeting the applicable scriptures. Even Paul recognized that he sinned, but he also recognized that Jesus would deliver him from his sin. Luke also dealt with the same issue in Hebrews 12:1

 

[Mediaeval]

I believe Romans 7 cannot be characterizing the state of the believer - the logic of the transition to chapter 8 seems to rule this out: in 7 Paul is under a law of sin and death, while in 8, he is released from that law through the agency of Christ.

So while I do not think that we need to be sinless to be saved, I don't think Romans 7 is relevant since I am confident it does not describe the state of the Christian.

I understand Romans 7 to be describing the state of the Christian since Paul is using the present tense to describe himself. See in particular vv. 22 & 23 where Paul affirms delighting in God's law in the spirit and not delighting in His law in his flesh, both things simultaneously. This is the reason why the Christian in this world is never done with putting off the old man and putting on the new.

 

[sdowney717]

I understand Romans 7 to be describing the state of the Christian since Paul is using the present tense to describe himself. See in particular vv. 22 & 23 where Paul affirms delighting in God's law in the spirit and not delighting in His law in his flesh, both things simultaneously. This is the reason why the Christian in this world is never done with putting off the old man and putting on the new.

Romans 8
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 7, the death of the body due to sin
Romans 8, alive to God in the Spirit due to us obtaining the righteousness of Christ as a free gift.

And the final result of the process of salvation, our glorification. getting a new body like His.

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[Travis93]

I've got another question. I'm seeing a lot of verses that show who gets saved was chosen before the world began (Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, Romans 9:11). Is the proper response to this fact to fear that I might be believing in vain as a non-elect? After all, many believers will be told "I never knew you" as per Matthew 21-23.

 

[StanJ]

I've got another question. I'm seeing a lot of verses that show who gets saved was chosen before the world began (Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, Romans 9:11). Is the proper response to this fact to fear that I might be believing in vain as a non-elect? After all, many believers will be told "I never knew you" as per Matthew 21-23.

Ephesians 4:1 he chose us IN him. ( already saved) Paul expands on this and Romans 8:28-30
Romans 9:11 is about Esau and Jacob not about Christians.
Revelation 17:8 is about when the Book of Life was established, not when the names are written in it. That has happened throughout time.
Jesus will say 'I never knew you', to all the actors who faked their salvation and just played Church.