Evangeliclcals who affirm Purgatory.

[Panevino]

All the best Albion
I'll leave it there

 

[Albion]

All the best Albion
I'll leave it there

Thanks, my friend. Maybe we'll wind up on the same side of some debate soon.

 

[Panevino]

No worries just important people not waste their time attacking a strawman.
Extract from the Catechism below. the imperfection is not a failing/ lack of the cross it's ours

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#III
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

 

[Albion]

No worries just important people not waste their time attacking a strawman.

Well, that was a brief interlude, wasn't it?

 

[Light of the East]

The New Testament affirms that the Lord Jesus "by Himself purged our sins"; the Lord Jesus on the Cross affirmed "It is finished". Hebrews affirms again and again that the Lord was once offered.

Therefore, whatever people may call themselves, if they say the Lord Jesus' death at the Cross was somehow not sufficient to reconcile the believing sinner to God, they are not being Biblical.

No, they are actually being covenantal. We live in the New Covenant, therefore, our relationship to Christ Jesus is guided by covenant principles.

The idea that Jesus died and therefore all our sins of the future are forgiven by a legal decree of "not guilty" is Luther's invention some 1500 years after Christ and the Apostles. It had never been taught anywhere at any time in the Christian faith until Luther invented it.

BTW - Hebrews 7-10, which chapters are where you find the words about the once offering of Christ, are about His being Great High Priest. The high priest offers something that the Levite cannot offer - Yom Kippur. Yom Kippur is an offering for the congregation of God, or church. It is not for individual sins. Therefore, what is being spoken of in Hebrews as the "once and forever offering" is that it is for the restoration of the covenant between God's people and God, just as it was in Leviticus 16. It has nothing to do with personal sins. Hence, if you die with personal sins still on your soul, you will be purged of them.

Orthodox soteriology goes farther than that and considers the ontological state of the soul at the time of death. In Orthodoxy, the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to wrest away from the evil one all mankind of all times and ages. That is, every human being who ever lived will wind up in the presence of God -- but not all of them are going to enjoy it. God is a passionate, burning fire according to Scripture. A fire of love. All that is not like Him will be tormented in His presence, and in His presence, the fire of His love will either burn away the dross which is not like Him, or set like concrete those who refused to give up the sins, clung to evil, and hated Him. They will find His presence an eternal torment.

Dr. Alexander Kalomiros wrote about this in his paper THE RIVER OF FIRE

 

[Light of the East]

You don't get that thought from the Bible. The Bible says in 1 John 1.7: 'If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Christ cleanses (present continuous) from all sin'.

And if you don't walk in the light, but walk in sin, then what? You die and go to be with God with sin on your soul?

I don't think so.

Of course, I know from previous posts that you are a believer in Luther's little fantasy called "forensic (or legal) justification" (aka "imputed righteousness") so I know you will find it hard to accept the fact that A.) forensic justification is a recent (500 years old) heresy and that B.) people do die in sin and need to be cleansed in their souls.

 

[Albion]

And if you don't walk in the light, but walk in sin, then what? You die and go to be with God with sin on your soul?

I don't think so.

What any of us thinks really isn't the issue. And it isn't something that we get to make into a doctrine simply because it sounds reasonable. What the word of God teaches on the matter is what counts.

What the Bible teaches is FORGIVENESS, not "a second chance to work it off."

 

[Light of the East]

What any of us thinks really isn't the issue. And it isn't something that we get to make into a doctrine simply because it sounds reasonable. What the word of God teaches on the matter is what counts.

What the Bible teaches is FORGIVENESS, not "a second chance to work it off."

Show me where the Bible teaches any such thing at all. Please.

You fail to recognize the working principles of a covenant relationship.

And name-calling doesn't make your case either.

 

[Albion]

Show me where the Bible teaches any such thing at all. Please.

You need help finding verses in the Bible which teach forgiveness for sin. Is that right?

 

[Job8]

This is a new and interesting development among dispensationalist Evangelicals.

Why haven't they been honest and said "We are crypto-Catholics" or "We are full blown Papists"? Let's face it. There are a lot of people wearing false labels these days, and also more and more "Christians" do not want to hear sound doctrine, but look for novelty or fantasy (which is what Purgatory is). Well, let's be real blunt. Anyone who believes in Purgatory DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE about the finished work of redemption accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[Light of the East]

You need help finding verses in the Bible which teach forgiveness for sin. Is that right?

That's not what I said, sir. Now if you can stop being a smart aleck (does it make you somehow feel superior to me?) and answer the question, the question is this: where is any verse which speaks of sin being forgiven by one act of "accepting Jesus" or baptism or whatever you believe forgives your sin. In other words, show me in the Bible where it says that once we have been forgiven, that forgiveness runs to forgiving even the sins we have not yet committed.

Do you think you can do that without the insults?

 

[Light of the East]

Why haven't they been honest and said "We are crypto-Catholics" or "We are full blown Papists"? Let's face it. There are a lot of people wearing false labels these days, and also more and more "Christians" do not want to hear sound doctrine, but look for novelty or fantasy (which is what Purgatory is). Well, let's be real blunt. Anyone who believes in Purgatory DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE about the finished work of redemption accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection.

I will ask you the same question I asked Albion. Show me the verse(s). Show me where there is any idea ever expressed that once you ask forgiveness or are baptized or however you feel that you receive your initial forgiveness and entrance into the Kingdom of God, that you continue to be forgiven into the future, even if you do not confess all your sins before you die.

 

[Albion]

That's not what I said, sir. Now if you can stop being a smart aleck

Sorry. If you can't answer simple request for a clarification, I'm not interested.

 

[Albion]

Why haven't they been honest and said "We are crypto-Catholics" or "We are full blown Papists"? Let's face it. There are a lot of people wearing false labels these days, and also more and more "Christians" do not want to hear sound doctrine, but look for novelty or fantasy (which is what Purgatory is). Well, let's be real blunt. Anyone who believes in Purgatory DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE about the finished work of redemption accomplished by the Lord Jesus Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection.

I understand your feelings about Purgatory, but as to the question of the thread, I really don't think there are any "Evangelicals" who believe in Purgatory. Purgatory has been defined by the church that invented it, and that definition is rather complicated. This means that while there are some people who think that there may be a transitional period in the afterlife, they do not actually believe in "Purgatory." Not a lot of Catholics do, either. Not any more.

 

[Job8]

I will ask you the same question I asked Albion. Show me the verse(s). Show me where there is any idea ever expressed that once you ask forgiveness or are baptized or however you feel that you receive your initial forgiveness and entrance into the Kingdom of God, that you continue to be forgiven into the future, even if you do not confess all your sins before you die.

We would need to do a complete and detailed Bible study on the finished work of Christ to properly address your question. The short answer is that God deals with sins in the lives of believers without the need for Purgatory. There are examples in the New Testament if you wish to follow through.

 

[MWood]

When John the Baptist, and Jesus said that He (Jesus) has come to forgive the sins of the world, they didn't mean just the sins that had been committed up until that moment. It was all the sins of the world. As it is written in Hebrews, there is no forgiving of sins without the shedding of blood. It is also written in Hebrews that Jesus has died once for the sins of the world, and will die no more. Never again, it is done, the last time was the last time. So if the sins that have been committed after Jesus died on the Cross were not forgiven.....Well there is going to be a VERY big fire after the White Throne Judgment.

 

[Hawkiz]

When John the Baptist, and Jesus said that He (Jesus) has come to forgive the sins of the world, they didn't mean just the sins that had been committed up until that moment. It was all the sins of the world. As it is written in Hebrews, there is no forgiving of sins without the shedding of blood. It is also written in Hebrews that Jesus has died once for the sins of the world, and will die no more. Never again, it is done, the last time was the last time. So if the sins that have been committed after Jesus died on the Cross were not forgiven.....Well there is going to be a VERY big fire after the White Throne Judgment.

There is room for agreement here. Catholics and non-Catholics alike would agree that all sins, (past, present and future) were redeemed by Christ through His death and Resurrection. Thus, all mankind has had their sins paid for by Jesus. Yet very few would say that this equates to universal salvation, not all are saved through this redemption. We have to accept it. And how do we accept this redemption? Scripture tells us that it is faith working in love. We demonstrate our faith through our obedience to God. None of us has perfect obedience. And yet we must be made perfect before we can enter into Heaven, and spend eternity with our Lord.
Scripture further tells us that a portion of the forgiveness of our sins is conditional: IF (which is a conditional word) we confess our sins. IF, we stand firm in faith until the end. IF, we keep all that Jesus taught and commanded. IF we believe. IF we are baptized. Unless (IF) we eat His flesh and drink His blood. And so on. God is always faithful to His side of the covenant, but we are not are we? Thus, we must be cleansed. We all, as Christians, trust in God's promise that it is because of what Jesus has accomplished that we can even dare to make a claim on what God has promised. We also acknowledge that we all fall short.
Purgatory, or a cleansing from our sins should not be a concept that frightens either the Catholic or the Protestant. We should all pray that we shall be cleansed of all our sins: that means we are about to enter into God's promise!

Peace in Christ, and I apologize for resurrecting an old thread.

 

[MWood]

No apology necessary. Old threads are resurrected all the time.

There is only one "if" necessary for salvation. That "if" is, if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and believe in His death, burial, and resurrection, we will have salvation. John 3:15-16, and many other places in the Gospel of John speak of this same truth by Jesus Himself. Salvation is a gift of God to all who believe. It does not say anything about baptism, confessing sins, standing firm in the faith, doing all that Jesus taught and commanded, eating His flesh and drinking His blood. All Jesus said was believe.

Man can and has added some much of his own words to the truth of what is written, that as person that has never been schooled or churched in the Word, can find the teaching of the church confusing. The sermons don't follow the truth of the bible as it is written. For instance. Why would anyone pray for the forgiving of their sins? Wasn't the Blood on the Cross enough? What else must God do to forgive the sins of the world? Is there something more? And again. Why would anyone want to be baptized in water? Are we not baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ? Isn't this baptism enough? Too many traditions of man in our churches today.

 

[Light of the East]

No apology necessary. Old threads are resurrected all the time.

There is only one "if" necessary for salvation. That "if" is, if we believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and believe in His death, burial, and resurrection, we will have salvation. John 3:15-16, and many other places in the Gospel of John speak of this same truth by Jesus Himself. Salvation is a gift of God to all who believe. It does not say anything about baptism, confessing sins, standing firm in the faith, doing all that Jesus taught and commanded, eating His flesh and drinking His blood. All Jesus said was believe.

Man can and has added some much of his own words to the truth of what is written, that as person that has never been schooled or churched in the Word, can find the teaching of the church confusing. The sermons don't follow the truth of the bible as it is written. For instance. Why would anyone pray for the forgiving of their sins? Wasn't the Blood on the Cross enough? What else must God do to forgive the sins of the world? Is there something more? And again. Why would anyone want to be baptized in water? Are we not baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ? Isn't this baptism enough? Too much traditions of man in our churches today.

A.) You pray for the forgiveness of your sins because you are commanded to do so. Apparently you missed this verse:

1 Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confess to who? And why, after we have believed, do we need to confess. John wrote this to believers, those who were already in the Kingdom.

B.) The Blood of Christ is enough. More than enough. But it doesn't work against our free will. We are forgiven when we ask to be forgiven.

C.) We are baptized in water because it is shown in the Bible (Acts 2:38) Water baptism is the covenant ceremony of the New Covenant which has replaced circumcision. Believers are a covenant people, therefore, we follow covenant principles. One of the principles of making a covenant is that there is a ceremony of covenant making. Baptism is part of that ceremony.

D.) Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something different from the covenant making ceremony and baptism in water.

You mistake traditions of man with Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition is that which has been passed down from generation to generation. When the heretic, Arias, was defending his denial of Christ's deity from Scripture alone (sola scriptura) the Fathers of the Church responded with an appeal to Holy Tradition, that is, the way things were always done and always believed.

The greatest example of man made traditions is found in Protestantism, which left the teachings of the Apostles and favored the ideas of mere men who were not taught by the Apostles and did not follow that which was given to the Church in the first century.

 

[Jack Terrence]

The New Testament affirms that the Lord Jesus "by Himself purged our sins"; the Lord Jesus on the Cross affirmed "It is finished". Hebrews affirms again and again that the Lord was once offered.

Therefore, whatever people may call themselves, if they say the Lord Jesus' death at the Cross was somehow not sufficient to reconcile the believing sinner to God, they are not being Biblical.

It is YOU who is not biblical. It was NOT the death of the animal that effected reconciliation. It was the sprinkling of its blood on the altar that made the atonement. Likewise, it is Jesus' intercession in the heavenly tabernacle that makes atonement today. It explicitly says that he entered the heavenly tabernacle "with his own blood" to "sprinkle" it. Peter said that we are saved by the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus." His death by itself has no value without the sprinkling of his blood.