Evangeliclcals who affirm Purgatory.

faroukfarouk

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It is YOU who is not biblical. It was NOT the death of the animal that effected reconciliation. It was the sprinkling of its blood on the altar that made the atonement. Likewise, it is Jesus' intercession in the heavenly tabernacle that makes atonement today. It explicitly says that he entered the heavenly tabernacle "with his own blood" to "sprinkle" it. Peter said that we are saved by the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus." His death by itself has no value without the sprinkling of his blood.
The work of Christ at the Cross needs to be reckoned to the believer's account, by faith, and the believer is represented before the Father by our forerunner, the Lord Jesus.
 
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Jack Terrence

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The work of Christ at the Cross needs to be reckoned to the believer's account, by faith, and the believer is represented before the Father by our forerunner, the Lord Jesus.
Yes, it is Christ's heavenly intercession that makes the atonement. Therefore, Christ's word on the cross "it is finished" could not have been a reference to the atonement.
 
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MWood

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A.) You pray for the forgiveness of your sins because you are commanded to do so. Apparently you missed this verse:

1 Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Confess to who? And why, after we have believed, do we need to confess. John wrote this to believers, those who were already in the Kingdom.

B.) The Blood of Christ is enough. More than enough. But it doesn't work against our free will. We are forgiven when we ask to be forgiven.

C.) We are baptized in water because it is shown in the Bible (Acts 2:38) Water baptism is the covenant ceremony of the New Covenant which has replaced circumcision. Believers are a covenant people, therefore, we follow covenant principles. One of the principles of making a covenant is that there is a ceremony of covenant making. Baptism is part of that ceremony.

D.) Baptism of the Holy Spirit is something different from the covenant making ceremony and baptism in water.

You mistake traditions of man with Holy Tradition. Holy Tradition is that which has been passed down from generation to generation. When the heretic, Arias, was defending his denial of Christ's deity from Scripture alone (sola scriptura) the Fathers of the Church responded with an appeal to Holy Tradition, that is, the way things were always done and always believed.

The greatest example of man made traditions is found in Protestantism, which left the teachings of the Apostles and favored the ideas of mere men who were not taught by the Apostles and did not follow that which was given to the Church in the first century.
No where in the Word of God are we commanded to pray for the forgiveness of our sins. Confessing our sins is not the same as asking for our forgiveness. Twist it any way you want to, it is not the same.

The Blood of Jesus is enough for all that we will ever need to have the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. It has nothing to do with our free will, or the traditions of man. It is all about the Blood of Jesus. The only Holy Blood that has ever been.

Water baptism is the covenant ceremony?? Where is the scripture for that? And where is the scripture for this New Covenant which is to replace circumcision and where are the principles of this covenant written?

Yep, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a lot different than the water baptism for the ceremony of the covenant. I have never heard of such a ceremony.

I have never read in my Bible the words "Holy Traditions." Is it there and I missed it? I have read about the traditions of man. All denoms have them, and yes they are handed down from generation to generation. These traditions of man needed to be eliminated. We need to return to the truth of Gods Word.
 
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MWood

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Yes, it is Christ's heavenly intercession that makes the atonement. Therefore, Christ's word on the cross "it is finished" could not have been a reference to the atonement.
When Jesus said "it is finished," He was referring to the fulfillment of all the Law and the Prophesies concerning Him.
 
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Light of the East

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No where in the Word of God are we commanded to pray for the forgiveness of our sins. Confessing our sins is not the same as asking for our forgiveness. Twist it any way you want to, it is not the same.

Well, I gave you the verse. Here's another one:

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them;and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Now how were the Apostles supposed to forgive the sins of those who sin except that those sins were confessed to the Apostles? This is, of course, the practice of the Christian faith for 1500 years until Protestant heresy said that it was not necessary.


The Blood of Jesus is enough for all that we will ever need to have the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. It has nothing to do with our free will, or the traditions of man. It is all about the Blood of Jesus. The only Holy Blood that has ever been.

Not sure I understand what you are getting at here. Maybe you would like to explain it a little further.

Water baptism is the covenant ceremony?? Where is the scripture for that? And where is the scripture for this New Covenant which is to replace circumcision and where are the principles of this covenant written?

In the Old Covenant, there was a ceremony of entering the covenant which was called "circumcision." Without being circumcised, one was not a member of the congregation of God (aka "the Church") and had no relationship to God. Jesus said that His Blood is the Blood of the New Covenant, which indicates a change in the covenant. The change is that the covenant goes from prophetic to fulfillment. For instance, the Eucharist is the fulfillment of the Passover. Jesus changed the Last Passover Supper into the first Holy Eucharist. The nation of Israel is replaced by the New Covenant Church, which is a combined Jew/Gentile Church. Circumcision becomes baptism. (Col. 2: 11-12)

To get a good grasp of the principles of the covenant of God, I would suggest reading Ray Sutton's book THAT YOU MAY PROSPER. You can read it for free at the I.C.E. freebooks website. Sutton shows the five working principles of God's covenant and gives Scripture to support them.

Yep, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a lot different than the water baptism for the ceremony of the covenant. I have never heard of such a ceremony.

What do you think circumcision was? It was a ceremony by which the Old Covenant male was entered into the covenant of God.

I have never read in my Bible the words "Holy Traditions." Is it there and I missed it? I have read about the traditions of man. All denoms have them, and yes they are handed down from generation to generation. These traditions of man needed to be eliminated. We need to return to the truth of Gods Word.

No. Holy Tradition is not in the Bible. The words "Holy Tradition" were used to separate the historic practices of the Church from the traditions made up by men. This is how we know that a doctrine is right - it has a Holy Tradition which goes all the way back to the first Christians. So, for instance, when people speak about "accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior" we know that this is false because there is no Tradition of this in the Church. It is a recent invention. The Holy Tradition, which is found in the sermons and writings of the first Christian pastors is that baptism saves and removes sin.

There are denominations and then there is the Church. Denominations were created by men who rebelled against the Church. You don't find denominations in the first centuries of Christianity because there is only one Church, not thousands. Each denomination has its own man-made traditions which separate it from others and from the original Church which Christ established upon the Rock of St. Peter.

As for "the truth of God's Word..." Whose truth? Yours? The Methodists? The Episcopalians? The Fundamentalists? The Baptists? The Seventh Day Adventists? Do you see the problem? All of these man-made denominations swear that they are following the Bible and the leading of the Holy Spirit, yet they all disagree with each other?

How then do we know the truth?
 
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Light of the East

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The work of Christ at the Cross needs to be reckoned to the believer's account, by faith, and the believer is represented before the Father by our forerunner, the Lord Jesus.


Uhhhhhh.......no.
 
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Light of the East

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When Jesus said "it is finished," He was referring to the fulfillment of all the Law and the Prophesies concerning Him.

Could He have been referring to the Old Covenant? When He said this, the veil of the Temple was rent in two pieces, exposing the Holiest of All and making it desecrated and unfit for further use. That place was where the yearly offering of Yom Kippur was offered, which renewed the Old Covenant between God and the Jews. By tearing apart the veil, and the words "it is finished" happening at the same time, I think He might have been referring to the Old Covenant being finished.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Uhhhhhh.......no.
"...God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 6.17-20)
 
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Panevino

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It is YOU who is not biblical. It was NOT the death of the animal that effected reconciliation. It was the sprinkling of its blood on the altar that made the atonement. Likewise, it is Jesus' intercession in the heavenly tabernacle that makes atonement today. It explicitly says that he entered the heavenly tabernacle "with his own blood" to "sprinkle" it. Peter said that we are saved by the "sprinkling of the blood of Jesus." His death by itself has no value without the sprinkling of his blood.
I heard a great homily at an amazing mass for Corpus Christi several months ago where a bishop described the mass and the distribution of the Body and Blood at Holy Eucharist as anagolous to the sprinkling of blood on the people as part of the sacrifice as described in the following verse(Or one similar to it)
Exodus 24:6-8

Then Moses took half of the blood, and put it into bowls: and the rest he poured upon the altar. And taking the book of the covenant, he read it in the hearing of the people: and they said: All things that the Lord hath spoken we will do, we will be obedient. And he took the blood and sprinkled it upon the people, and he said: this is the blood of the covenant which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
 
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Panevino

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What any of us thinks really isn't the issue. And it isn't something that we get to make into a doctrine simply because it sounds reasonable. What the word of God teaches on the matter is what counts.

What the Bible teaches is FORGIVENESS, not "a second chance to work it off." :doh:

Just to be clear (though I'm sure you know)
Purgatory does not offer a second chance to gain forgiveness.

It's about being conformed to the will of God through being purged of remnant attachments/inclinations to Sin.
 
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Light of the East

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"...God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 6.17-20)

I am unimpressed by people who throw around verses of Scripture without any explanation of what they think that these verses mean. Would you mind telling me what your intention is in these verses?
 
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Light of the East

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I heard a great homily at an amazing mass for Corpus Christi several months ago where a bishop described the mass and the distribution of the Body and Blood at Holy Eucharist as anagolous to the sprinkling of blood on the people as part of the sacrifice as described in the following verse(Or one similar to it)
Exodus 24:6-8

Then Moses took half of the blood, and put it into bowls: and the rest he poured upon the altar. And taking the book of the covenant, he read it in the hearing of the people: and they said: All things that the Lord hath spoken we will do, we will be obedient. And he took the blood and sprinkled it upon the people, and he said: this is the blood of the covenant which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.

That's an interesting thought, and one worthy of some reflection.
 
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Albion

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Just to be clear (though I'm sure you know)
Purgatory does not offer a second chance to gain forgiveness.
Right.

It's about being conformed to the will of God through being purged of remnant attachments/inclinations to Sin.
That's part of the theory, yes. But Purgatory is also much more.
 
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faroukfarouk

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I am unimpressed by people who throw around verses of Scripture without any explanation of what they think that these verses mean. Would you mind telling me what your intention is in these verses?
Your previous post seemed to deny what I meant in my previous post, and so I supplied Scripture as evidence.
 
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Light of the East

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Your previous post seemed to deny what I meant in my previous post, and so I supplied Scripture as evidence.

But I don't understand what you mean. Can you please elaborate? There are a number of ways I could take your OP.
 
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Albion

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Not to interfere--and I assume that faroukfarouk will be replying to you--but I had a similar feeling upon reading the OP. For one thing, we don't know that these alleged and unidentified Evangelicals are representative of anything, and for another, it doesn't sound as though it amounts to a belief in Purgatory, anyway.
 
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Hawkiz

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No where in the Word of God are we commanded to pray for the forgiveness of our sins. Confessing our sins is not the same as asking for our forgiveness. Twist it any way you want to, it is not the same


The Blood of Jesus is enough for all that we will ever need to have the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. It has nothing to do with our free will, or the traditions of man. It is all about the Blood of Jesus. The only Holy Blood that has ever been.

Water baptism is the covenant ceremony?? Where is the scripture for that? And where is the scripture for this New Covenant which is to replace circumcision and where are the principles of this covenant written?

Yep, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a lot different than the water baptism for the ceremony of the covenant. I have never heard of such a ceremony.

I have never read in my Bible the words "Holy Traditions." Is it there and I missed it? I have read about the traditions of man. All denoms have them, and yes they are handed down from generation to generation. These traditions of man needed to be eliminated. We need to return to the truth of Gods Word.

Nowhere in Scripture are we commanded to pray for the forgiveness of our sins except in The Lord's Prayer you mean? When Jesus commanded 'Pray then in this way: 'Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, AND FORGIVE US OUR DEBTS, as we forgive our debtors. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.' Jesus explicitly teaches us to pray for the forgiveness of our sins here in Matthew 6. No 'twisting' of The Word needed here: these are the words that Christ Himself taught us to pray

And St. Paul teaches that we are to follow traditions in a number of places, a couple being: 1 Cor. 11:2, 'Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and HOLD FAST TO THE TRADITIONS, just as I have delivered them to you.' St. Paul praises the Church in Corinth for keeping the traditions he taught them. And also in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. 'So brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the TRADITIONS that you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter.' St. Paul writes clearly here: there ARE traditions that he taught, and not all of them were written down in his letters. Further on in 2 Thessalonians 3:6, St. Paul admonishes those who are NOT following what? The traditions he taught them.

Scripture shows that there are clearly some traditions that are not found in its pages, and we are still to follow those; we are not to follow the 'traditions of man', which both Jesus and St. Paul mention, but the traditions of God, which St. Paul felt he was teaching, by both word of mouth and by letter, are most assuredly to be kept.

Peace in Christ
 
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faroukfarouk

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But I don't understand what you mean. Can you please elaborate? There are a number of ways I could take your OP.
As Hebrews 6.20 says, the Lord Jesus is the believer's forerunner, Who enters into the presence of the Father in order to represent and plead on the behalf of all who love Him and trust Him, on the grounds of His finished work at the Cross.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Not to interfere--and I assume that faroukfarouk will be replying to you--but I had a similar feeling upon reading the OP. For one thing, we don't know that these alleged and unidentified Evangelicals are representative of anything, and for another, it doesn't sound as though it amounts to a belief in Purgatory, anyway.
I think your phrase 'alleged and unidentified Evangelicals' is apt.
 
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Light of the East

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As Hebrews 6.20 says, the Lord Jesus is the believer's forerunner, Who enters into the presence of the Father in order to represent and plead on the behalf of all who love Him and trust Him, on the grounds of His finished work at the Cross.

So in light of this thread and the intention of it, are you saying that there is no cleansing after death? Is that what you take these verses to mean?
 
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