David Daleiden Doubles Down

[PapaZoom]

God commands we obey the governmental law UNLESS the government law violates God's law (immoral). To violate laws that are not immoral is sin.

Daleiden is accused of breaking three laws that I am aware of. Accusations are:

1. He created a fake ID which included tampering with government documents. The law against tampering with government documents is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law.
2. He offered to buy fetal tissue. The law against buying fetal tissue is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law.
3. He illegally recorded another party without their permission. The law against illegally recording another party without their permission is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law.

I personally do not believe God condones sin, nor do I believe our sins please God.

If PP was acting outside the law, Daleiden could have accomplished his goal within God's and man's laws. Patience and better planning is all he needed if PP, was in fact, violating state laws against selling tissue/organs. He, like many before him, choose the easy and quick route to achieving his goals. That method usually includes sin. In this case, it included sin and violating the law. Now he must face the consequences of those actions here, and later he will answer for them to God as we all do.


Romans 13:1-7

13 All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. And all those who rule now were given that power by God. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves. 3 People who do right don’t have to fear the rulers. But those who do wrong must fear them. Do you want to be free from fearing them? Then do only what is right, and they will praise you.

4 Rulers are God’s servants to help you. But if you do wrong, you have reason to be afraid. They have the power to punish, and they will use it. They are God’s servants to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government, not just because you might be punished, but because you know it is the right thing to do.

6 And this is why you pay taxes too. Those rulers are working for God, and they give all their time to the work of ruling. 7 Give everyone what you owe them. If you owe them any kind of tax, then pay it. Show respect to those you should respect. And show honor to those you should honor.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I applaud their actions. all three of your examples are laughable. PP is killing the unborn and making millions on it, and they are selling body parts. But wait, someone made a fake ID!

 

[Belk]

I don't think CMP is breaking God's laws either.

I believe "Do not bear false witness" is one of God's laws is it not?

 

[PapaZoom]

I believe "Do not bear false witness" is one of God's laws is it not?

I don't believe that has been done. But even if it had, there are examples in the Bible where bearing false witness was commended by God:
Rahab ran an inn built on the Jericho city wall where she hid the spies on her roof top. When the king of Jericho learned the men had been to Rahab's house, he sent orders for her to turn them over. She lied to the king's soldiers concerning the whereabouts of the spies, and sent them off in the opposite direction.

For that Rahab is in the hall of fame:
Hebrews 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

 

[Belk]

I don't believe that has been done. But even if it had, there are examples in the Bible where bearing false witness was commended by God:
Rahab ran an inn built on the Jericho city wall where she hid the spies on her roof top. When the king of Jericho learned the men had been to Rahab's house, he sent orders for her to turn them over. She lied to the king's soldiers concerning the whereabouts of the spies, and sent them off in the opposite direction.

For that Rahab is in the hall of fame:
Hebrews 11:31New International Version (NIV)

31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

I believe they have but I will concede that lying to protect others strikes me as a biblical principle.

 

[PapaZoom]

I believe they have but I will concede that lying to protect others strikes me as a biblical principle.

I don't even think it's fair to characterize it as lying. If you're an evil government and you want to know where the Jews are hiding so you can kill them, you have no right to my allegiance nor any information I might have. You'd not be entitled to either.

In the same way, the court is silencing free speech and the people have a right to know what goes on behind closed doors at PP. After all, we give them 1/2 billion dollars to kill the unborn. The least they can do is be transparent. But they like to hide behind closed doors and CMP exposed what really goes on and what's really being said. PP are the liars and their evil should not be protected by law.

 

[Mayzoo]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I applaud their actions. all three of your examples are laughable. PP is killing the unborn and making millions on it, and they are selling body parts. But wait, someone made a fake ID!

Violating the law and sinning is laughable? Umm, okay.

My sin does not justify, magnify, or minimize anyone else's sin. Please quote a NT scripture that indicates anyone's sin is minimized by someone else's sin. Trivializing or rationalizing Daleiden's poor choices and sin by saying "but some one else has done worse" is not scriptural or advisable. Christians should NEVER trivialize or justify sin--their own or anyone else's.

I do not agree with abortion. That fact is simply irrelevant. Daleiden has admitted he has has broken laws. Because I disagree with abortion is no reason to sully Christianity by making excuses for someone who broke the law and sinned against God.

I will not justify my sin, nor will I will justify any one else's. Justification of sin only makes repentance harder and forgiveness further away. It helps no one, and hurts all involved. If enough people justify his sin, he may come to believe repentance is not necessary. He may come to believe (if he does not already) that he was perfectly justified in sinning against God. That will be very tragic for him, but he will not be able to blame others when he faces God on his judgement day. We are all solely responsible for our actions; "but he made me do it" simply will not work on judgement day.

 

[PapaZoom]

Violating the law and sinning is laughable? Umm, okay.

My sin does not justify, magnify, or minimize anyone else's sin. Please quote a NT scripture that indicates anyone's sin is minimized by someone else's sin. Trivializing or rationalizing Daleiden's poor choices and sin by saying "but some one else has done worse" is not scriptural or advisable. Christians should NEVER trivialize or justify sin--their own or anyone else's.

I do not agree with abortion. That fact is simply irrelevant. Daleiden has admitted he has has broken laws. Because I disagree with abortion is no reason to sully Christianity by making excuses for someone who broke the law and sinned against God.

I will not justify my sin, nor will I will justify any one else's. Justification of sin only makes repentance harder and forgiveness further away. It helps no one, and hurts all involved. If enough people justify his sin, he may come to believe repentance is not necessary. He may come to believe (if he does not already) that he was perfectly justified in sinning against God. That will be very tragic for him, but he will not be able to blame others when he faces God on his judgement day. We are all solely responsible for our actions; "but he made me do it" simply will not work on judgement day.

Your list is laughable:

1. He created a fake ID which included tampering with government documents. The law against tampering with government documents is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law.
2. He offered to buy fetal tissue. The law against buying fetal tissue is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law.
3. He illegally recorded another party without their permission. The law against illegally recording another party without their permission is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law

1 So he created a fake ID. So what. He did so to bypass PP's security because they were screening people because PP knew they were targets of folks who would expose their dirty dealings.
2 So what? He offered to expose the practices of PP.
3 It's not illegal to record others as it's done all the time.

To sin can only happen against God. So 1 2 3 strikes you're out.

 

[Mayzoo]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I applaud their actions. all three of your examples are laughable. PP is killing the unborn and making millions on it, and they are selling body parts. But wait, someone made a fake ID!

Where do we draw the line? What other sins against others and God are justified because PP performs abortions?

1. Is it okay to destroy the personal property (ie car, windows on house etc) of a person who works at PP?
2. Is it okay to ruin the credit of a person who works there?
3. Is it okay to film and aire a PP worker having sex with someone other than their spouse to discredit them?
4. Is it okay to bomb an empty PP facility?
5. Is it okay to torment those going into a PP facility?
6. Is it okay to kill a PP doctor or worker since it would be only one death vs millions?
7. Is it okay to sabotage the personal life of a PP worker (ruin relationships etc)

I am genuinely asking. What other sins are perfectly okay with you for someone else to commit because they are justified by PP performing abortions?

 

[PapaZoom]

Where do we draw the line? What other sins against others and God are justified because PP performs abortions?

1. Is it okay to destroy the personal property (ie car, windows on house etc) of a person who works at PP?
2. Is it okay to ruin the credit of a person who works there?
3. Is it okay to film and aire a PP worker having sex with someone other than their spouse to discredit them?
4. Is it okay to bomb an empty PP facility?
5. Is it okay to torment those going into a PP facility?
6. Is it okay to kill a PP doctor or worker since it would be only one death vs millions?
7. Is it okay to sabotage the personal life of a PP worker (ruin relationships etc)

I am genuinely asking. What other sins are perfectly okay with you for someone else to commit because they are justified by PP performing abortions?

They did none of those things and you know it.

 

[Mayzoo]

Your list is laughable:

1. He created a fake ID which included tampering with government documents. The law against tampering with government documents is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law.
2. He offered to buy fetal tissue. The law against buying fetal tissue is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law.
3. He illegally recorded another party without their permission. The law against illegally recording another party without their permission is not immoral, thus it is a sin to violate this law

1 So he created a fake ID. So what. He did so to bypass PP's security because they were screening people because PP knew they were targets of folks who would expose their dirty dealings.
2 So what? He offered to expose the practices of PP.
3 It's not illegal to record others as it's done all the time.

To sin can only happen against God. So 1 2 3 strikes you're out.

Violating laws that are not immoral are a sin against God (Romans 13:1-7).

1. He created a fake ID. It is illegal to so for any reason, period.

2. So what?? So, he broke the law (sinned). Sinning used to be a big deal to Christians. I gather it is not so much any more if I am base my opinion on what I see here.

3. "California's wiretapping law is a "two-party consent" law. California makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation." http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law

"You sinned? No big deal.....tell me every detail surrounding your sin and I bet I can find a "good reason" why you did it. It is called the "he made me do it clause" to getting out of your sin." Sounds like a unscrupulous lawyers TV ad. It does not sound like the walk or talk of a Christian!


1, 2, 3 strikes.......good news is he is not out!!! He has a chance at redemption/repentance if he chooses to take it, praise be to Christ!!

 

[Mayzoo]

They did none of those things and you know it.

I did not accuse them of doing any of those things. I asked you a question. Thank you.

 

[PapaZoom]

Violating laws that are not immoral are a sin against God (Romans 13:1-7).

1. He created a fake ID. It is illegal to so for any reason, period.

2. So what?? So, he broke the law (sinned). Sinning used to be a big deal to Christians. I gather it is not so much any more if I am base my opinion on what I see here.

3. "California's wiretapping law is a "two-party consent" law. California makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation." http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law

"You sinned? No big deal.....tell me every detail surrounding your sin and I bet I can find a "good reason" why you did it. It is called the "he made me do it clause" to getting out of your sin" Sounds like a unscrupulous lawyers TV ad. It does not sound like the walk or talk of a Christian!


1, 2, 3 strikes.......good news is he is not out!!! He has a chance at redemption/repentance if he chooses to take it, praise be to Christ!!

I just don't see it the way you see it. CMP did the right thing. I hope they continue the fight.

 

[PapaZoom]

I did not accuse them of doing any of those things. I asked you a question. Thank you.

You're welcome.

 

[Belk]

I don't even think it's fair to characterize it as lying. If you're an evil government and you want to know where the Jews are hiding so you can kill them, you have no right to my allegiance nor any information I might have. You'd not be entitled to either.

Agreed. I understand that you feel these cases are similar. I do not.

In the same way, the court is silencing free speech and the people have a right to know what goes on behind closed doors at PP.

I disagree. I believe they are slandering PP with false claims and the courts have ruled consistently that slander and libel are not protected under free speech.

After all, we give them 1/2 billion dollars to kill the unborn.

This is a false statement .

The least they can do is be transparent. But they like to hide behind closed doors and CMP exposed what really goes on and what's really being said. PP are the liars and their evil should not be protected by law.

Every investigation to date has cleared them. Once again I think your bias blinds you to the truth.

 

[PapaZoom]

Agreed. I understand that you feel these cases are similar. I do not.



I disagree. I believe they are slandering PP with false claims and the courts have ruled consistently that slander and libel are not protected under free speech.



This is a false statement .



Every investigation to date has cleared them. Once again I think your bias blinds you to the truth.

A new video is just released. How can they be vindicated when all the evidence hasn't been seen? And it's true that PP gets nearly 500 million and that they kill the unborn. So there ya go. They kill live human beings using a variety of methods. Then they suck out the body ripping off legs and arms. The doctor and nurses have to reassemble the fetus to be sure all the body parts are accounted for. For that service they are making millions.

 

[classicalhero]

That would not be scientifically false. A fetus is human, but not always a human being or a person. In order to be a person, one must possess personality or human thought. Without higher brain function this is not possible.

That is a philosophical argument, not a scientific one. But we shouldn't "humanise" fetuses, according to NARAL. This would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that they are taking human life. But the funny thing about "personhood" is that it is never used to give human rights, but to take them from humans.

 

[Mayzoo]

I just don't see it the way you see it. CMP did the right thing. I hope they continue the fight.

You and I need not agree. The only "opinions" that matter are God's first, then the courts. In time, we will know both.

Thank you.

 

[Belk]

A new video is just released. How can they be vindicated when all the evidence hasn't been seen?

How do you know the evidence has not been seen? If a claim of profit is leveled why do I need to see a video if I can examine PP books and find the claim false?

And it's true that PP gets nearly 500 million and that they kill the unborn. So there ya go. They kill live human beings using a variety of methods. Then they suck out the body ripping off legs and arms. The doctor and nurses have to reassemble the fetus to be sure all the body parts are accounted for. For that service they are making millions.

Kindly spare me the hyperbole and simplistic thinking. Insulting my intelligence will not help you sway my opinion.

 

[Belk]

That is a philosophical argument, not a scientific one. But we shouldn't "humanise" fetuses, according to NARAL. This would be funny if it wasn't for the fact that they are taking human life. But the funny thing about "personhood" is that it is never used to give human rights, but to take them from humans.

I believe those who were considered 3/5ths of a person in the US constitution would disagree.

 

[PapaZoom]

How do you know the evidence has not been seen? If a claim of profit is leveled why do I need to see a video if I can examine PP books and find the claim false?



Kindly spare me the hyperbole and simplistic thinking. Insulting my intelligence will not help you sway my opinion.

THey can cook the books

How exactly have I insulted your intelligence? Do you disagre with what I said? Why?