Why do the laws of the OT not apply today?

[jerry kelso]

Jesus spoke concerning the Law of Moses, that it has not been abolished, and he said thus,



And Even Paul says,


Yet those of the new covenant do not live by the letter of the law, but of the spirit of the law, and each commandment of the Law of Moses is carefully observed either literally, if it pertains to a literal command to be obeyed, or spiritually observed, an instance of which is foods, or by exceeding a particular command, as there are commands concerning giving oaths or lending at interest, and neither thing are we to do now, so these commandments are in fact exceeded by those of the new covenant.

cgaviria,

1. Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus was living under the law of Moses and taught the law of Moses and not the new covenant.
2. The disciples did not understand his death, burial and resurrection. Matthew 16:21-23, John 6:53-67.
3. The messiah was to fulfill all the prophecies about his earthly ministry. You cannot harmonize the scripture that talks about Jesus keeping the law and fulfilling it concerning the context of his ministry with his ministry of redemption and reconciliation of the cross and the new covenant. Hebrews 8:6-7.
4. Paul said the letter kills but the spirit gives life. The law is of the spirit and the new covenant and not the law of Moses which came because of transgressions and was only till the seed should come.
5. There are eternal laws throughout the whole bible but one must understand the context of what is being spoken in the way God dealt with men in different ages in specific ways. If one lives by the Mosaic law they have to keep 630 laws and 1000 and more statutes and commandments or be cursed.
In essence, I assume you are saying the Mosaic law is in effect through the new covenant through spiritual concepts in scriptures. I have to go to work but we need to address specific things of what you think what part of Moses law is supposed to be performed. Thanks Jerry Kelso

 

[cgaviria]

The Bible talks about salvation in the past, present, and future tense (Ephesians 2:5, Philippians 2:12, Romans 5:9-10), so we are saved from the penalty of our sin or transgressions of the law, we are being saved from ongoing sin or transgressions of the law, and we will be saved from the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. Being saved from ongoing sin is also known as sanctification. We receive the Spirit when we put our faith in Christ, but that doesn't mean that we become sinless on day 1, but rather we must go through sanctification, of being made to be more like Christ in his obedience to the law. When He who began a good work in us carries it to completion on the day of Christ Jesus, then we will be made in complete obedience to God's law. So while someone who has received the Spirit will still sin until their sanctification is complete, their practice is of repentance, not of sin.

Another way to look at it is how God declared that the Promised Land legally belong to Israel, but they had not yet entered and possessed it. In the same way, we are declared to be righteous by faith or to legally have right standing before God, so God's righteousness legally belongs to us and indwells us, but we have not yet entered and possessed it because we do not yet always do what is righteous. We need to possess God's righteousness by going through sanctification and being made to be like Christ, who always did what is righteous in accordance with God's law.

So your answer is no then. You have a form of godliness, but you do not realize what the power of holy spirit does. The sanctification that holy spirit imparts is instant, as it changes a man inwardly instantaneously and removes all evil desires, and causes those who receive it to sin no more. It is powerful. It is in fact a possession by a spirit of God. However, the growth to attain holy spirit varies, some receive it quickly shortly after believing, others take longer and must repent or humble themselves first, and others never receive it for other various reasons. It is a gift, and once you receive it you are sealed and chosen for salvation. Receiving holy spirit comes with outward signs, it is usually speaking in different languages as the spirit gives utterance, or prophesying. Anyone who receives holy spirit never sins from the moment he receives it and onward. It is impossible. The whole objective of the new covenant in Jesus Christ is to be born of this spirit, because if you are not, you will die in your sins never able to actually please God, because it is impossible to actually please God without holy spirit.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

the laws were a shadow that pointed to the body that is Christ, that those who partake in the Divine Nature in Christ Jesus embody. To return to the shadow is just that, lacking the depth of what God wants from us, and representing spiritual darkness.

 

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,

1. Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus was living under the law of Moses and taught the law of Moses and not the new covenant.
2. The disciples did not understand his death, burial and resurrection. Matthew 16:21-23, John 6:53-67.
3. The messiah was to fulfill all the prophecies about his earthly ministry. You cannot harmonize the scripture that talks about Jesus keeping the law and fulfilling it concerning the context of his ministry with his ministry of redemption and reconciliation of the cross and the new covenant. Hebrews 8:6-7.
4. Paul said the letter kills but the spirit gives life. The law is of the spirit and the new covenant and not the law of Moses which came because of transgressions and was only till the seed should come.
5. There are eternal laws throughout the whole bible but one must understand the context of what is being spoken in the way God dealt with men in different ages in specific ways. If one lives by the Mosaic law they have to keep 630 laws and 1000 and more statutes and commandments or be cursed.
In essence, I assume you are saying the Mosaic law is in effect through the new covenant through spiritual concepts in scriptures. I have to go to work but we need to address specific things of what you think what part of Moses law is supposed to be performed. Thanks Jerry Kelso

Although the blood of the new covenant had not been shed for the atonement of those that would inherit deliverance after his death, he still lived as a man birthed by holy spirit, in fact, he was not birthed, but conceived by holy spirit, and because of this, was he then sinless even from conception, even before his own blood for the new covenant was shed, which demonstrates that anything birthed by holy spirit brings forth sinlessness, as opposed to the blood of the new covenant, which brings forth atonement for all sins once and for all, so therefore, those that believe in Jesus Christ, the true lamb, receive atonement for all previous sins committed, and once reborn in holy spirit, receive also the sinless nature to sin no more from there forward, which is how we have this scripture,

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (1 John 3:6 [ESV])

And also,

Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. (Daniel 9:24 [ESV])

The whole purpose of the ministry of Jesus Chris was to bring both atonement for sin, once and for all, and to bring forth an end to sin through holy spirit. Unless you receive the baptism of holy spirit and are imparted this perfect inner nature, you will not attain salvation, as it is impossible to please God without this. Anyone carrying on in there sins will die in their sins, as it is said here,

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

And concerning the Law of Moses, yes there are commandments written that are still to be followed literally, and there are also commandments that are no longer necessary to be followed literally, but rather spiritually. It takes discernment, wisdom, and if you have the guidance of holy spirit in you, to know which commandment pertains to what.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

 

[jerry kelso]

Although the blood of the new covenant had not been shed for the atonement of those that would inherit deliverance after his death, he still lived as a man birthed by holy spirit, in fact, he was not birthed, but conceived by holy spirit, and because of this, was he then sinless even from conception, even before his own blood for the new covenant was shed, which demonstrates that anything birthed by holy spirit brings forth sinlessness, as opposed to the blood of the new covenant, which brings forth atonement for all sins once and for all, so therefore, those that believe in Jesus Christ, the true lamb, receive atonement for all previous sins committed, and once reborn in holy spirit, receive also the sinless nature to sin no more from there forward, which is how we have this scripture,


And also,


The whole purpose of the ministry of Jesus Chris was to bring both atonement for sin, once and for all, and to bring forth an end to sin through holy spirit. Unless you receive the baptism of holy spirit and are imparted this perfect inner nature, you will not attain salvation, as it is impossible to please God without this. Anyone carrying on in there sins will die in their sins, as it is said here,


And concerning the Law of Moses, yes there are commandments written that are still to be followed literally, and there are also commandments that are no longer necessary to be followed literally, but rather spiritually. It takes discernment, wisdom, and if you have the guidance of holy spirit in you, to know which commandment pertains to what.

cgvaira,

1. If you believe in the sinless perfection doctrine where one can never sin after he is saved for any reason that would not be scriptural John 2:2.

2. 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. This would mean to practice sin and change masters.
I do not believe that technically a christian can be free from sin all his christian life because of the power of God. At the same time it is more a possibility than a probability because of the weakness of man. There is no sin nature that lives in us of what we once were so I do not believe in the dual theory.

3. The atonement was for the whole world for he was willing that none should perish but have eternal life John 3:16 and in Hebrews 9:15: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

4. Just because Jesus was sinless doesn't mean we will always be sinless as in not having the possibility of sinning and this is what you imply by saying whatever the Holy Spirit births he births sinlessness.
The atonement did satisfy the penalty for sin past, present and future so all parties could be perfected forever and that happened at Calvary. Hebrews 11:40. The past, present and future is usually as a debt paid for all who receives him in the form of unconditional eternal security. This is not true for Christ gave his life freely and didn't owe a debt and we could not be the substitute for we could never be the appropriate ransom of the sinless lamb of God. If Jesus paid the debt in this respect then everyone would be saved whether saint or sinner.

5. Concerning the law of Moses you are not being specific and you have not answered to Hebrews 8:6-7 that specifically say the new covenant replaced the old.
The whole covenant in totality is completely different than the old and the mechanics of the covenant are different and because it was one unit it was totally abolished in the context of judaism from the old covenant.
There are 630 laws and more than 1000 to 1200 more statutes and commandments. So will you give some examples of what is allowed and what is not out of those? I believe I understand your spiritual concept because the law was spiritual and the new covenant is spiritual and in this respect they are in close relation. At the same time the ethic and the mechanics of the law are at total opposite polars and can cause much defeat. After all, Israel struggled with the law and lived more in defeat than victory over the ages.

6. As far as Paul mentioning the law those contexts have to be understood in the immediate context as well as his overall context. He had pros and cons in the way he explained the law of Moses. Romans 7 he said the law was holy and good but the law of sin and death took advantage of it because all it could say was; Thou shalt not and the Holy Spirit wasn't residing in each individual 24-7 as their helper and comforter, etc. The law of sin and death was replaced by the law of the Spirit. The commandment was ordained to life but became unto death; vs. 10. The whole essence was that this ministration of death made those jews live to the frailty of man which was sin because they couldn't help what they did even though they had a desire to, etc.

7. Paul also said the law was wrath and not of faith. The priesthood was of man and limited and had to be changed to a perfect order of priesthood. The 10 commandments were a ministration of death and they were moral with exception of the sabbath; and the weakness of performing the commandment lies in self effort, the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good and making them fall into sin. One can be subdued by the law and in the end they run the risk of rebelling. God wants us to love him because it is who we are in him. He has given a better way to achieve this than in the old covenant but most of the time we don't take advantage of it and this causes the struggle. God writes it on our heart in for what we do out of complete love and trust in him and not because we are trying to work up to a code of ethics. There are a lot more reasons but I will stop here.

8. I am not against praying for understanding of what pertains to us but at the same time we can learn alot from understanding what the old covenant really was about and why Peter said it was a yoke of bondage that they or their fathers could not bear.

9. The Mosaic law was totally different and Jeremiah and Hebrews both say that when God makes the new covenant with Israel in the last days it will be a different on than the one coming out of Egypt which was Moses law. Just your term of Moses law as the old and the new covenant is an oxymoron and confusing so if you could be a little more specific of why you use the term, law of Moses when it is associated with a different way of life. Answer to the scripture I gave that said the law was abolished such as 2 Corinthians 3:16 cause when the law of Moses is read, the veil is upon the jews heart. The only reason I might have said in the past for the jews that they live by the law of Moses according to the new covenant teaching and ethics is because they are jews and their culture was all wrapped up in the law and vice versa. So tell me why you think the moral law was not done away with because that seems to be what you imply since it is all about the spiritual aspect that you mentioned. Thanks Jerry Kelso

 

[cgaviria]

cgvaira,

1. If you believe in the sinless perfection doctrine where one can never sin after he is saved for any reason that would not be scriptural John 2:2.

2. 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. This would mean to practice sin and change masters.
I do not believe that technically a christian can be free from sin all his christian life because of the power of God. At the same time it is more a possibility than a probability because of the weakness of man. There is no sin nature that lives in us of what we once were so I do not believe in the dual theory.

3. The atonement was for the whole world for he was willing that none should perish but have eternal life John 3:16 and in Hebrews 9:15: And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

4. Just because Jesus was sinless doesn't mean we will always be sinless as in not having the possibility of sinning and this is what you imply by saying whatever the Holy Spirit births he births sinlessness.
The atonement did satisfy the penalty for sin past, present and future so all parties could be perfected forever and that happened at Calvary. Hebrews 11:40. The past, present and future is usually as a debt paid for all who receives him in the form of unconditional eternal security. This is not true for Christ gave his life freely and didn't owe a debt and we could not be the substitute for we could never be the appropriate ransom of the sinless lamb of God. If Jesus paid the debt in this respect then everyone would be saved whether saint or sinner.

5. Concerning the law of Moses you are not being specific and you have not answered to Hebrews 8:6-7 that specifically say the new covenant replaced the old.
The whole covenant in totality is completely different than the old and the mechanics of the covenant are different and because it was one unit it was totally abolished in the context of judaism from the old covenant.
There are 630 laws and more than 1000 to 1200 more statutes and commandments. So will you give some examples of what is allowed and what is not out of those? I believe I understand your spiritual concept because the law was spiritual and the new covenant is spiritual and in this respect they are in close relation. At the same time the ethic and the mechanics of the law are at total opposite polars and can cause much defeat. After all, Israel struggled with the law and lived more in defeat than victory over the ages.

6. As far as Paul mentioning the law those contexts have to be understood in the immediate context as well as his overall context. He had pros and cons in the way he explained the law of Moses. Romans 7 he said the law was holy and good but the law of sin and death took advantage of it because all it could say was; Thou shalt not and the Holy Spirit wasn't residing in each individual 24-7 as their helper and comforter, etc. The law of sin and death was replaced by the law of the Spirit. The commandment was ordained to life but became unto death; vs. 10. The whole essence was that this ministration of death made those jews live to the frailty of man which was sin because they couldn't help what they did even though they had a desire to, etc.

7. Paul also said the law was wrath and not of faith. The priesthood was of man and limited and had to be changed to a perfect order of priesthood. The 10 commandments were a ministration of death and they were moral with exception of the sabbath; and the weakness of performing the commandment lies in self effort, the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law that was holy and good and making them fall into sin. One can be subdued by the law and in the end they run the risk of rebelling. God wants us to love him because it is who we are in him. He has given a better way to achieve this than in the old covenant but most of the time we don't take advantage of it and this causes the struggle. God writes it on our heart in for what we do out of complete love and trust in him and not because we are trying to work up to a code of ethics. There are a lot more reasons but I will stop here.

8. I am not against praying for understanding of what pertains to us but at the same time we can learn alot from understanding what the old covenant really was about and why Peter said it was a yoke of bondage that they or their fathers could not bear.

9. The Mosaic law was totally different and Jeremiah and Hebrews both say that when God makes the new covenant with Israel in the last days it will be a different on than the one coming out of Egypt which was Moses law. Just your term of Moses law as the old and the new covenant is an oxymoron and confusing so if you could be a little more specific of why you use the term, law of Moses when it is associated with a different way of life. Answer to the scripture I gave that said the law was abolished such as 2 Corinthians 3:16 cause when the law of Moses is read, the veil is upon the jews heart. The only reason I might have said in the past for the jews that they live by the law of Moses according to the new covenant teaching and ethics is because they are jews and their culture was all wrapped up in the law and vice versa. So tell me why you think the moral law was not done away with because that seems to be what you imply since it is all about the spiritual aspect that you mentioned. Thanks Jerry Kelso

You do not understand the sinless nature holy spirit imparts because you do not understand what holy spirit is. Do not men that have demons entering them, made of the same form of the spirit, which is moving air, cause men to do things against their will, or cause to sin, or even bring forth disease? Spirit and moving air are synonymous, but the English language makes a distinction between the two, but these two are the same thing, these living beings are made of moving air, and can enter into any flesh that breathes in air to live, even animals, and takes possessions of whatever vessel they enter into. In similar fashion is holy spirit, it is a living being made of moving air, that enters into the body, but does not do so maliciously, but rather, takes possession of the body to guide it, to speak to it inside the head, to coach it, to intercede for it, and to prevent it from sinning. This is why it is impossible for anyone truly bearing holy spirit to sin, because the living being possessing the body of a saint prevents him from doing so. It is a gift, a wonderful gift. This is the only way it is possible to not sin, because our own inner nature is sinful and it is impossible for it to not sin, so therefore it becomes necessary for it to be rebirthed in spirit, by receiving holy spirit, and having holy spirit inhabit the body. Holy spirit is a type of angel made into a ministering spirit that is sent for this very purpose, as different angels have different purposes and commands, and each person that receives this holy spirit receives a distinct spirit that all act as one and do the same thing among all believers, yet dispense different gifts as each wills, hence why we have these scriptures,

The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:32)

Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?(Hebrews 1:14 [NIV])

When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but

whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (John 16:3 [ESV])

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. (Romans 8:26 [ESV])

Unless you receive holy spirit to have it inhabit your body, you will not attain the salvation of God, but will instead carry on in your sins.

 

[jerry kelso]

You do not understand the sinless nature holy spirit imparts because you do not understand what holy spirit is. Do not men that have demons entering them, made of the same form of the spirit, which is moving air, cause men to do things against their will, or cause to sin, or even bring forth disease? Spirit and moving air are synonymous, but the English language makes a distinction between the two, but these two are the same thing, these living beings are made of moving air, and can enter into any flesh that breathes in air to live, even animals, and takes possessions of whatever vessel they enter into. In similar fashion is holy spirit, it is a living being made of moving air, that enters into the body, but does not do so maliciously, but rather, takes possession of the body to guide it, to speak to it inside the head, to coach it, to intercede for it, and to prevent it from sinning. This is why it is impossible for anyone truly bearing holy spirit to sin, because the living being possessing the body of a saint prevents him from doing so. It is a gift, a wonderful gift. This is the only way it is possible to not sin, because our own inner nature is sinful and it is impossible for it to not sin, so therefore it becomes necessary for it to be rebirthed in spirit, by receiving holy spirit, and having holy spirit inhabit the body. Holy spirit is a type of angel made into a ministering spirit that is sent for this very purpose, as different angels have different purposes and commands, and each person that receives this holy spirit receives a distinct spirit that all act as one and do the same thing among all believers, yet dispense different gifts as each wills, hence why we have these scriptures,




Unless you receive holy spirit to have it inhabit your body, you will not attain the salvation of God, but will instead carry on in your sins.

cgaviria,

1. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and does not force himself on anyone and this is why we must cooperate because we are a freewill person and he deals with us as such because he created us as a freewill agent. If the Holy Spirit dictates and forces such as a demon does then we are nothing but tormented at the extreme and a robot at the least.

2. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit stays his will on a person. The goal is to abide so much that you become one with Christ and will do no other but there is no guarantee that one will always obey without cooperation of a freewill agent. Peter was saved before the cross though not perfected; for they were to be born again but he still denied Christ 3 times and even after the cross he was a respector of persons. Paul dealt with different things of sin with his converts such as Demas who loved the present world etc. and the book of Acts. Ananias and Sapphira were members of the early church who were one in doctrine and had all things in common and died for lying to the Holy Spirit.

3. I agree that the sin issue was different in the lives of the apostles and christians for the most part before and after the cross in certain ways, but as new covenant christians we are not indestructible or prevented from the possibility of sinning and this is what you seem to believe. This is not true because God would be a respector of persons to the old testament believers who sometimes missed the mark. Even Moses missed the mark and did not enter into the promise land.

4. I used to work with people who believed in a sinless perfection doctrine to the extreme where they could not sin until one of their members was caught in an open sin and they excommunicated him. Later, I heard they took him back. So much for sinless perfection with no possibility to sin, but at least they believed in reconciliation. At the same time I do not believe in being an advocate for a christian can't help but sin attitude either.

5. James 5:19-20 was speaking to christians: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one converrt him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Jesus said the devil is out there to steal, kill, and destroy the christian and Paul said he could be a castaway if he did not mortify his members of his body and guard against and this is why he said we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices.

6. This doesn't mean that we cannot be eternally secure because Paul had a made up mind that nothing could separate him from the love of God and God will always do his part but that doesn't mean we don't have any cooperation at all.

7. Romans 6 says who a christian yields himself to the master of sin or obedience to righteousness will be a servant to. Paul believed better of his flock but he knew human frailty as well.

8. Galatians 5:19-21 shows that christians who do not walk in the Spirit will fulfill the things of the flesh and can lose salvation according to the works of the flesh for those who sin the works of the flesh in these scriptures will not inherit the kingdom of God. Of course, God will always forgive if one will ask for it in sincerity and humbleness etc.

9. It is a scriptural fact that christians have the possibility to sin and backslide and according to the laws of degeneration and the laws of hardening the heart can leave God by changing masters.

10. The Holy Spirit leads and guide into all truth but this is no guarantee that he will without the cooperation of the believer.

11. While I am a firm believer that christians need a higher scope about the doctrine of overcoming sin and do not judge a believer who may live closer to God than another because of his communion with God in a greater way. There is no scripture that says a christian has no possibility to sin at all. The sinless perfection doctrine believers use 1 John 3:8 but fail to misunderstand the condition is abiding in Christ which take cooperation of trusting and obeying and allowing God to work through them by way of the Holy Spirit.

12. Freewill choice is the only true way to be true love that is reciprocal. No freewill choice is robotic and programmed in this life.

13. Sinless perfection to the extreme would indict every christian who falls into sin and there would be no chance for reconciliation to come back to God as in James 5.

14. Subjects like eternal security and apostasy are not quite always like some may think according to the light of scripture. Also, the sinless perfection doctrine to the extreme makes God a respector of persons to all people who believe and miss the mark. So this extreme doctrine is not scripturally true and your logic is nice but if that was true then there would be no reason for God to damn anyone for he loves all his creation and we might as well believe in the UR doctrine that says everyone will eventually be saved even after they die. I don't want nobody to go to hell but I don't say any scripture to prove this and I haven't seen any scripture you have given to prove your doctrine. Jerry kelso

 

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,

1. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and does not force himself on anyone and this is why we must cooperate because we are a freewill person and he deals with us as such because he created us as a freewill agent. If the Holy Spirit dictates and forces such as a demon does then we are nothing but tormented at the extreme and a robot at the least.

2. There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit stays his will on a person. The goal is to abide so much that you become one with Christ and will do no other but there is no guarantee that one will always obey without cooperation of a freewill agent. Peter was saved before the cross though not perfected; for they were to be born again but he still denied Christ 3 times and even after the cross he was a respector of persons. Paul dealt with different things of sin with his converts such as Demas who loved the present world etc. and the book of Acts. Ananias and Sapphira were members of the early church who were one in doctrine and had all things in common and died for lying to the Holy Spirit.

3. I agree that the sin issue was different in the lives of the apostles and christians for the most part before and after the cross in certain ways, but as new covenant christians we are not indestructible or prevented from the possibility of sinning and this is what you seem to believe. This is not true because God would be a respector of persons to the old testament believers who sometimes missed the mark. Even Moses missed the mark and did not enter into the promise land.

4. I used to work with people who believed in a sinless perfection doctrine to the extreme where they could not sin until one of their members was caught in an open sin and they excommunicated him. Later, I heard they took him back. So much for sinless perfection with no possibility to sin, but at least they believed in reconciliation. At the same time I do not believe in being an advocate for a christian can't help but sin attitude either.

5. James 5:19-20 was speaking to christians: Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one converrt him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way, shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Jesus said the devil is out there to steal, kill, and destroy the christian and Paul said he could be a castaway if he did not mortify his members of his body and guard against and this is why he said we are not to be ignorant of Satan's devices.

6. This doesn't mean that we cannot be eternally secure because Paul had a made up mind that nothing could separate him from the love of God and God will always do his part but that doesn't mean we don't have any cooperation at all.

7. Romans 6 says who a christian yields himself to the master of sin or obedience to righteousness will be a servant to. Paul believed better of his flock but he knew human frailty as well.

8. Galatians 5:19-21 shows that christians who do not walk in the Spirit will fulfill the things of the flesh and can lose salvation according to the works of the flesh for those who sin the works of the flesh in these scriptures will not inherit the kingdom of God. Of course, God will always forgive if one will ask for it in sincerity and humbleness etc.

9. It is a scriptural fact that christians have the possibility to sin and backslide and according to the laws of degeneration and the laws of hardening the heart can leave God by changing masters.

10. The Holy Spirit leads and guide into all truth but this is no guarantee that he will without the cooperation of the believer.

11. While I am a firm believer that christians need a higher scope about the doctrine of overcoming sin and do not judge a believer who may live closer to God than another because of his communion with God in a greater way. There is no scripture that says a christian has no possibility to sin at all. The sinless perfection doctrine believers use 1 John 3:8 but fail to misunderstand the condition is abiding in Christ which take cooperation of trusting and obeying and allowing God to work through them by way of the Holy Spirit.

12. Freewill choice is the only true way to be true love that is reciprocal. No freewill choice is robotic and programmed in this life.

13. Sinless perfection to the extreme would indict every christian who falls into sin and there would be no chance for reconciliation to come back to God as in James 5.

14. Subjects like eternal security and apostasy are not quite always like some may think according to the light of scripture. Also, the sinless perfection doctrine to the extreme makes God a respector of persons to all people who believe and miss the mark. So this extreme doctrine is not scripturally true and your logic is nice but if that was true then there would be no reason for God to damn anyone for he loves all his creation and we might as well believe in the UR doctrine that says everyone will eventually be saved even after they die. I don't want nobody to go to hell but I don't say any scripture to prove this and I haven't seen any scripture you have given to prove your doctrine. Jerry kelso

Free-will is a false doctrine, as the will of man is in subjection to the will of God, and man can only come to God if they are drawn by God, or man is turned away from God if God hardens his heart. These are all things God does in his power over what he has created and does so for various purposes.

 

[jerry kelso]

Free-will is a false doctrine, as the will of man is in subjection to the will of God, and man can only come to God if they are drawn by God, or man is turned away from God if God hardens his heart. These are all things God does in his power over what he has created and does so for various purposes.

cgaviria,
You have no scripture for that. If you do show it. Conditions are all through life and cooperation is imperative for them to work especially for the basis of true love.
Man has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit but God gave us a brain to understand our need for a Savior to save us from our sins and to make a freewill choice. The bible says choose you this day whom you will serve. You can either accept or reject. The Holy Spirit draws men despite whether or not they accept or reject.
God hardening the heart is man's choice when he rejects God and the natural progression is that it will make him settle more into his rejection. Legalism by christians prove this and when God hardened Pharaoh's heart but he was granted grace at the same time 10 times. This is why God can be a just judge to damn some and save others. He is out to save mankind as his will is concerned and not damn them. God doesn't predestine men to go to hell. That is there destination because of their own merits for Galatians says they will be reap corruption of the flesh.
You have no scripture for no freewill, especially in the context you spoke in. Jerry kelso

 

[PloverWing]

The Law of Moses still applies, but those under the new covenant who are born in the spirit either fulfill a specific command literally, spiritually, or exceed it.

Those of you who have said that the Law of Moses applies to all Christians, including Gentile Christians: What form does this take in your daily life? Do you live approximately in the way observant Jews live? Do you celebrate Sukkot in the fall and Passover in the spring? Do you refrain from eating pork and shellfish? Do you attempt to follow all of what's laid out in Leviticus?

When you follow laws "spiritually", what does that entail? If you spiritually abstain from shellfish, say, what does that mean for you?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious here. I'd genuinely like to know what the daily devotional life is for those Christians who try to follow the Law of Moses.

 

[cgaviria]

cgaviria,
You have no scripture for that. If you do show it. Conditions are all through life and cooperation is imperative for them to work especially for the basis of true love.
Man has to be drawn by the Holy Spirit but God gave us a brain to understand our need for a Savior to save us from our sins and to make a freewill choice. The bible says choose you this day whom you will serve. You can either accept or reject. The Holy Spirit draws men despite whether or not they accept or reject.
God hardening the heart is man's choice when he rejects God and the natural progression is that it will make him settle more into his rejection. Legalism by christians prove this and when God hardened Pharaoh's heart but he was granted grace at the same time 10 times. This is why God can be a just judge to damn some and save others. He is out to save mankind as his will is concerned and not damn them. God doesn't predestine men to go to hell. That is there destination because of their own merits for Galatians says they will be reap corruption of the flesh.
You have no scripture for no freewill, especially in the context you spoke in. Jerry kelso

I have a whole entire teaching on it. Read up!

Understanding that all things have been appointed by God is a deep knowledge that anyone seeking wisdom must understand. Why is this of such importance? Because without knowing that all things are appointed by him, do you not know why things are made the way they are. Without knowing this, you can't answer questions like, "why is there disease in the world?", or "why is the world fallen?", or "why is there sin in the world?". Lets first look at this scripture,

No one is able to come to me unless the father, the one having sent me, should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6:44 [ABP])

Notice how nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. So if indeed you you did choose to follow Jesus, it was really because the Father drew you to him. So what can be said if you chose not to follow Jesus? Then it was because the Father did not draw you. Our choices demonstrate him either drawing us, or rejecting us. Do we know that the Father also rejects as opposed to drawing closer? Lets look at this verse,

[12] and it was said to her that, The greater shall serve the lesser. [13] As it has been written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I detested.
(Romans 9:12-13 [ABP])

So already before the twins were even born and able to choose anything, was one said to be lesser and one said to be greater, and was one said would serve the other, and subsequently, because of this predeclaration, was it then revealed that it was because one was loved and one was hated beforehand. So it is in fact nothing that you do that has caused him to choose you or reject you. As Paul even affirms,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

The one whom God shows mercy to, and the one whom he chooses to love, is the one whom he draws closer. And even before this Paul also affirms that God indeed shows mercy on whomever he pleases,

For to Moses he says, I will show mercy on whom ever I should show mercy, and I shall pity whom ever I should pity. (Romans 9:15 [ABP])

It is in fact the prerogative of God to show mercy on whomever he shows mercy and to show pity on whomever he shows pity. And we even have this scripture,

So then whom he wants, he shows mercy; but whom he wants, he hardens. (Romans 9:18 [ABP])

So if in fact you you choose to reject God, it is because he was the one that hardened you to do so. But why does he harden and reject one might ask? Lets look at this verse,

For the scripture says to Pharaoh that, For this same thing I awakened you, so that I should demonstrate in you my power, and so that I should declare my name in all the earth. (Romans 9:17 [ABP])

He hardened Pharaoh to not let his people go so that through Pharaoh he could demonstrate his mighty judgments, his deliverance, and power, as it even said here,

[3] But I will harden the heart of Pharaoh, and I will multiply my signs, and the miracles in the land of Egypt. [4] And Pharaoh will not listen to you, and I will put my hand against Egypt, and I will lead out with my powermy people the sons of Israel from out of the land of Egypt with great punishment. [5] And all the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, stretching out my hand against Egypt; and I will lead the sons of Israel from their midst.
(Exodus 7:3-5 [ABP])

So then one might ask, if he is the one that hardens us to reject him, why then does he find fault in us? These were the same questions Paul mentions,

You will say then to me, Why yet does he complain? For who has opposed his will? (Romans 9:19 [ABP])

And how does Paul respond to this?

Certainly, O man, who are you the one answering to God? Shall the thing shaped say to the one shaping, Why have you made me thus? (Romans 9:20 [ABP])

So in fact Paul is affirming, who are we to question God as to why he finds fault if he made us this way? He has every right and authority to find fault in whatever he creates, because he is the creator. Notice how Paul then says,

Or has not the potter authority of the clay, from out of the same batch, to make the one indeed for a vessel of honor, and the other for dishonor? (Romans 9:21 [ABP])

So in his authority he has created of vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and then Paul goes on to say,

[22] And if God wanting to demonstrate the wrath, and to make known his might, he bore with much leniency vessels of wrath being readied for destruction; [23] and that he should make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
(Romans 9:22-23 [ABP])

So who are these created vessels of wrath readied for destruction? Sinners who reject him and continue on in their sins. And why have they been appointed to sin? So that God may demonstrate his justice, his judgments, and his power through them. In creating sinners, is he then able to exact justice and punishment on those who acted wickedly and rejected him. If he hadn't created sinners, how else could he demonstrate punishment and justice for sins if everyone was made righteous? Even this old proverb holds true,

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. (Proverbs 16:4 [ESV])

Going further, if he hadn't created sinners, then he would not have been able to demonstrate his deliverance of the children of Israel from the hands of the Egyptians. If he hadn't created sinners, he would not have been able to demonstrate his power and judgments against the Egyptians. So creation itself has been submitted to futility and to the slavery of sin, so that not only may God demonstrate his judgment and power against it, but that he may also demonstrate his power to set it free, as even this verse says,

[20] For to vanity the creation was submitted, not willingly, but through the one submitting it, upon hope; [21] that even the creation itself shall be freed from the slavery of corruption, unto the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
(Romans 8:20-21 [ABP])

We even have this scripture indicating that God has made what he has created crooked,

Consider the work of God: who can make straight what he has made crooked? (Ecclesiastes 7:13 [ESV])

But what of the vessels of mercy and honor? He has also made sinners so that he can demonstrate mercy and forgiveness on them. How else could God demonstrate forgiveness if he hadn't created sinners that commit sins to be forgiven? And in demonstrating his mercy and forgiveness, does he also demonstrate his favor. We also have an instance when Moses was speaking to God concerning his commission to go forth and speak to Pharaoh, and he said,

And Moses said to the LORD, I beseech, O LORD, I am not fit before yesterday nor before the third day, nor from which time you began to speak to your attendant, for I am weak voiced and slow of tongue. (Exodus 4:10 [ABP])

And how does God respond?

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

So it is in fact God who makes the mute, the deaf, and the blind. But why does he do this? So that he may show his power to heal, as Jesus even says,

[2] And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, Who sinned, this one or his parents, that he was born blind? [3] Jesus answered, Neither this one sinned, nor his parents; but that should be made manifest the works of God in him.
(John 9:2-3 [ABP])

[6] These things having said, he spit on the ground and he made mud from out of the spittle, and he smeared the mud upon the eyes of the blind man. [7] And he said to him, Go wash in the pool of Siloam! which is translated, Being sent. He went forth then and washed, and came seeing.
(John 9:6-7 [ABP])

So not only do we know that the Father has created all sinners to demonstrate wrath or mercy, but he has also created the sick so that through them he may demonstrate his power to heal, and that he also exhibits control over the hearts of man to either cause them to draw closer or further away from him. Paul again declares,

For from out of him and through him and unto him are all things. To him be the glory into the eons. Amen. (Romans 11:36 [ABP])

From out of the Father and through the Father and for the Father have all things been predetermined... all things, down to every blink of your eye and to the falling of every leaf of all trees. All things have been preordained before the foundation of the world. How do we know that this scripture was referring to predetermination and not just the creation of things? Because of this verse that precedes it,

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (Romans 11:32 [ESV])

So again, this verse is in fact conveying that God has sold all men to disobedience, so that he may then show mercy on all, and in this is the predetermination of God is also conveyed, not only in this verse, but also in the verses that follow. Going further, throughout various scriptures we also see indicated that God chooses and God preordains,

[4] as he chose us in him before the founding of the world, for us to be holy and unblemished before him in love. [5] Having predefined us for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good-pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:4-5 [ABP])

Notice how this scripture says he chose us before the founding of the world. So even before the world was founded, you were already chosen, or rejected, and even your very choices to draw closer to him, or further away from him, were already ordained. Here we have these other scriptures showing that God chooses and predestines,

For of whom he foreknew, also he predefined conformable to the image of his son, for him to be first-born among many brethren. (Romans 8:29 [ABP])

He foreknows because he predefines. And Even Jesus said here,

You chose me not, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and [*2*fruit *1*bear], and your fruit should abide; that whatever you should ask the father in my name, he should give to you. (John 15:16 [ABP])

Even though his disciples did choose to follow Jesus, it was actually because it was God who first chose them and caused them to choose to follow Jesus. Here are more scriptures regarding the preselection of God,

Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])

For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4 [ESV])

But the ones whom he predefined, these also he called. And whom he called, these also he justified. And whom he justified, these also he glorified. (Romans 8:30 [ABP])

So then also in the present time a remnant according to choice of favor takes place. (Romans 11:5 [ABP])

In choosing sinners that do not deserve his mercy is where his grace, or rather, his favor shown. His mercy is granted out of his goodwill and kindness, and and in his choice to to give favor and love, does he then cover a multitude of sins, as it is said,

But before all things having the intense love among yourselves; for the love covers a multitude of sins; (1 Peter 4:8 [ABP])

We also have this scripture concerning those that martyred Jesus,

[27] For they gathered together in truth against the holy one, your servant Jesus, whom you anointed -- both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with nations, and peoples of Israel, [28] to do as much as your hand and your counsel predefined to take place.
(Acts 4:27-28 [ABP])

Even those that martyred Jesus were ordained to do what they did in killing Jesus. Here are some more examples concering preappointment and predefinition,

Before my shaping you in the belly I knew you; and before your coming forth from out of the womb I sanctified you; I appointed you a prophet unto nations. (Jeremiah 1:5 [ABP])

But we speak wisdom of God in a mystery, the one being concealed, which God predefined before the eons for our glory; (I Corinthians 2:7 [ABP])

Not only does did he create and predetermine all things, but the Father knows all things, including every little smidgeon of detail concerning what he has made. He knows all things, as Jesus even says,

But even the hairs of your head have all been counted. Do not then fear! you differ from many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 [ABP])

Imagine counting the hairs of the heads of the billions of humans that exist. This is just one instance of how deep his involvement is in everything that he has created. All things are in fact held together by the Father, and he has put all things he has made under the subjection of Jesus,

And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:17 [ESV])

Even nothing can contain the Father, as he is greater than all things he has made,

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built! (I Kings 8:27 [ESV])

This is why there is the son of God, because although the Father cannot himself dwell in anything he has created, as he is unfathomably higher than anything he has made, he has chosen to have a very representation of himself to carry out all things concerning himself, his power to create, his great love, his great mercy, and soon to be, his great wrath and judgment through the son of God at his second coming... all these things are carried out by Jesus who acts as God on creation, demonstrating all these attributes of the Father in the highest way above all living beings. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, but he himself is also subjected to the Father, as the Father is greater than he, as Jesus himself says,

You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I come to you. If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I go to the father, for my father is greater than me. (John 14:28 [ABP])

And even Jesus does not know all that the Father has preordained, as he even says,

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens, only my father alone. (Matthew 24:36 [ABP])

And even Jesus himself has no power to do his own will, except what is given to him by the Father to do and what has been prepared beforehand by the Father, as he even says,

[21] And he said to her, What do you want? She says to him, Say that these my two sons should sit, one on your right, and one on your left, in your kingdom! [22] And answering Jesus said, You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup which I am about to drink? And the immersion which I am immersed to be immersed? They say to him, We are able. [23] And he says to them, Indeed, my cup you shall drink, and the immersion which I am immersed you shall be immersed; but to sit on my right and on my left is not mine to give, but to the ones whom it has been prepared by my father.
(Matthew 20:21-23 [ABP])

So then one person might say, if the Father has indeed ordained all things, then why is there an instance of him repenting of having made man right before he brought forth the great flood? Lets look at the scripture,

[6] and God pondered that he made the man upon the earth, and he considered it. [7] And God said, I will wipe away the man, whom I made, from the face of the earth; from man unto beast, and from the reptiles unto the winged creatures of the heaven; for I repented that I made them.
(Genesis 6:6-7 [ABP])

Notice how in this scripture after God pondered, he then spoke. The Father has no need to ponder, nor to repent, as he has already ordained all things. Instead, in the speaking does it become evident that it was Jesus who spoke of having repented of the making of man. And Jesus, as a living being as we are, who is lesser than the Father, since the Father is great than he, can exhibit this form of regret, as he himself is not the one who preordains, as even before his crucifixion we have this,

saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.” (Luke 22:42 [ESV])

Jesus did not want to have to endure the terrible pain, suffering, and death he was about to endure, who would? But he knew what the Father had preordained, and instead conformed to the will of the Father instead of his own will. So the reluctance he demonstrates in this verse is similar to the regret he demonstrates in the other. So how do we know Jesus uttered those words concerning his regret of having made man? Because of this scripture,

[1] In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. [2] This one was in the beginning with God. [3] All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one thing which exists.
(John 1:1-3 [ABP])

This scripture indicates that Jesus was the "word of God", and that through the word did all living beings come to existence. Word in the Greek means, "speech, talking". So by indicating "word of God", it is in fact indicating these very words in the Genesis account of creation,

And God said, Let there be light! And there was light. (Genesis 1:3 [ABP])

Those very words that were spoken by God are in fact the words uttered by Jesus speaking things into existence, hence why he is called the "word of God", or rather, the "speech of God". So it stands to reason if these very words were uttered by Jesus, that the very words concerning his regret of having made man were also uttered by him.

All these things concerning the preordainment of God is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, because in understanding that all things are ordained by him, do you then fear him, and begin to attain wisdom. What wisdom? The wisdom of why he created things the way he did, that is wisdom.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight. (Proverbs 9:10 [ESV])

And even Jesus said,

And fear not of the ones killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul! But you fear rather the one being able both the soul and body to destroy in Gehenna! (Matthew 10:28 [ABP])

Having the fear of God is a good thing, as it also begins to impart wisdom to those that understand, and it helps to restrain those that fear him from sinning,

[19] And they said to Moses, You speak to us, and do not let God speak to us! lest we might die. [20] And Moses says to them, Be of courage! because God came to you to test you, so that there might be the fear of him in you, that you should not sin!
(Exodus 20:19-20 [ABP])

Finally, we have concluded that all things have been preordained by God, and that all things have been made to serve a purpose and to bring glory to his name.

 

[Hoghead1]

Certainly you have really done some hard work here, Cgiviria, to articulate and express your theology. However, I think you should be more honest and point out you are simply expressing your opinions as a lay person. The problem is that yours is not the only game in town. There are many other more solidly based theological approaches to the issues you address, yielding very different results. For example, the whole notion of predestination has been seriously questioned from centuries. Many find it illogical and unbiblical. There are any number of passages in Scriptures that directly contradict this notion. Furthermore, it denies all sense of freedom an does make God the author of al human suffering. These points would have been obvious to you, had you taken he time to carefully study the first-hand literature, especially the teachings of Calvin. Remember, according to Calvin, "murderers, larcenists, and all other manner of evil doers are the instruments by which the Lord executes his judgment upon us."

 

[cgaviria]

Those of you who have said that the Law of Moses applies to all Christians, including Gentile Christians: What form does this take in your daily life? Do you live approximately in the way observant Jews live? Do you celebrate Sukkot in the fall and Passover in the spring? Do you refrain from eating pork and shellfish? Do you attempt to follow all of what's laid out in Leviticus?

When you follow laws "spiritually", what does that entail? If you spiritually abstain from shellfish, say, what does that mean for you?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious here. I'd genuinely like to know what the daily devotional life is for those Christians who try to follow the Law of Moses.

These are absolutely valid questions, and it is important to ask concerning each commandment in the Law of Moses. None of the festivities or holidays are to be literally observed anymore, including the Sabbath, as Paul even instructed,

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

We, however, should study each of the festivals to determine their spiritual meanings, which are beyond the particular conversation. But take for example, the passover lamb, this was a foreshadow of the true lamb to come, Jesus. And the festival has types concerning Jesus, such as Jesus bones not being broken, such as his sinlessness which as a lamb without blemish, and other parallels.

Also the Sabbath, is a foreshadow of the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ on the earth. So those who toil now day and night, will attain that true Sabbath rest in the time to come literally. The last thousand years of this heaven and earth are to be dedicated as a time for all the inhabitants of the earth to rest from their practices of evil, as the earth will be full of the righteousness of God, and even Satan himself will be bound for this time. After this time is complete, the eons related to this heaven and earth will conclude at around 7,000 years to correspond with the 7 days of creation, and then the eons of the new heaven and new earth will begin, which includes the coming down of the new city of Jerusalem inhabited by those selected to inhabit the city, and those who will live outside the city. Yet these eons of the new heaven and new earth are a mystery to us, as we only know how it starts, but it carries on it an endless continuum of "eons of the eons", as those who are worthy to attain this eon live never die, but live eonianly.

Now, concerning the topic of not eating shellfish, we also have an instruction in one of the epistles that we are to eat all foods with thanksgiving, so this mere saying gives a new allowance in terms of foods, and here is the saying allowing it,

They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, (1 Timothy 4:3-4 [NIV])

However, if you wish to understand the spiritual interpretation concerning shellfish, here is the commandment in the Law concerning it,

And all as many as there are not fins to them, nor scales, being in the waters, and in the seas, and in the rushing streams, of all which bubble the waters, and from every soul living in the water, it is an abomination. (Leviticus 11:10 [ABP])

And then the allowable fish are these,

And these you shall eat out of all the ones in the waters -- all as many as there are fins to them and scales in the waters, and in the seas, and in the rushing streams -- these you shall eat. (Leviticus 11:9 [ABP])

But why is it an abomination? Because these sorts of fish are in the depths of the water, whereas with the fish with fins and scales, are above the depths closer to the surface. So what is the spiritual meaning? That you will not be or cling to ungodly men, who are represented as fish without fins and scales that are cursed to dwell in the depths of the waters, which corresponds with the curse of the ungodly concerning death, as all who are ungodly are cursed with the final judgment of endless death through torment and consummation of fire, which is represented as the true depth of the ocean where the shellfish are, since death is lower than life. Eating shellfish is of no importance to a believer in the new covenant, but being "friends" with the ungodly certainly is.

You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. (James 4:4 [NIV])

 

[cgaviria]

Certainly you have really done some hard work here, Cgiviria, to articulate and express your theology. However, I think you should be more honest and point out you are simply expressing your opinions as a lay person. The problem is that yours is not the only game in town. There are many other more solidly based theological approaches to the issues you address, yielding very different results. For example, the whole notion of predestination has been seriously questioned from centuries. Many find it illogical and unbiblical. There are any number of passages in Scriptures that directly contradict this notion. Furthermore, it denies all sense of freedom an does make God the author of al human suffering. These points would have been obvious to you, had you taken he time to carefully study the first-hand literature, especially the teachings of Calvin. Remember, according to Calvin, "murderers, larcenists, and all other manner of evil doers are the instruments by which the Lord executes his judgment upon us."

Does it matter if I am a lay person or not? Was it not said concerning children that "from the lips of children and infants you, Lord, have called forth your praise"? And this wasn't talking about actual children. So do not think that the word of God is validated by men who have elaborate college degrees, come from ivy league universities, or with reputable theological degrees, or appointed clergy in your churches as most are blind leading the blind, as anyone is able to become a learned man concerning scripture, and it be better that they be someone foolish and ignorant to the "theologies" of the world, as Paul even said,

And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. (1 Corinthians 2:1-2 [NIV])

 

[jerry kelso]

I have a whole entire teaching on it. Read up!

Understanding that all things have been appointed by God is a deep knowledge that anyone seeking wisdom must understand. Why is this of such importance? Because without knowing that all things are appointed by him, do you not know why things are made the way they are. Without knowing this, you can't answer questions like, "why is there disease in the world?", or "why is the world fallen?", or "why is there sin in the world?". Lets first look at this scripture,


Notice how nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. So if indeed you you did choose to follow Jesus, it was really because the Father drew you to him. So what can be said if you chose not to follow Jesus? Then it was because the Father did not draw you. Our choices demonstrate him either drawing us, or rejecting us. Do we know that the Father also rejects as opposed to drawing closer? Lets look at this verse,


So already before the twins were even born and able to choose anything, was one said to be lesser and one said to be greater, and was one said would serve the other, and subsequently, because of this predeclaration, was it then revealed that it was because one was loved and one was hated beforehand. So it is in fact nothing that you do that has caused him to choose you or reject you. As Paul even affirms,


The one whom God shows mercy to, and the one whom he chooses to love, is the one whom he draws closer. And even before this Paul also affirms that God indeed shows mercy on whomever he pleases,


It is in fact the prerogative of God to show mercy on whomever he shows mercy and to show pity on whomever he shows pity. And we even have this scripture,


So if in fact you you choose to reject God, it is because he was the one that hardened you to do so. But why does he harden and reject one might ask? Lets look at this verse,


He hardened Pharaoh to not let his people go so that through Pharaoh he could demonstrate his mighty judgments, his deliverance, and power, as it even said here,


So then one might ask, if he is the one that hardens us to reject him, why then does he find fault in us? These were the same questions Paul mentions,


And how does Paul respond to this?


So in fact Paul is affirming, who are we to question God as to why he finds fault if he made us this way? He has every right and authority to find fault in whatever he creates, because he is the creator. Notice how Paul then says,


So in his authority he has created of vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and then Paul goes on to say,


So who are these created vessels of wrath readied for destruction? Sinners who reject him and continue on in their sins. And why have they been appointed to sin? So that God may demonstrate his justice, his judgments, and his power through them. In creating sinners, is he then able to exact justice and punishment on those who acted wickedly and rejected him. If he hadn't created sinners, how else could he demonstrate punishment and justice for sins if everyone was made righteous? Even this old proverb holds true,


Going further, if he hadn't created sinners, then he would not have been able to demonstrate his deliverance of the children of Israel from the hands of the Egyptians. If he hadn't created sinners, he would not have been able to demonstrate his power and judgments against the Egyptians. So creation itself has been submitted to futility and to the slavery of sin, so that not only may God demonstrate his judgment and power against it, but that he may also demonstrate his power to set it free, as even this verse says,


We even have this scripture indicating that God has made what he has created crooked,


But what of the vessels of mercy and honor? He has also made sinners so that he can demonstrate mercy and forgiveness on them. How else could God demonstrate forgiveness if he hadn't created sinners that commit sins to be forgiven? And in demonstrating his mercy and forgiveness, does he also demonstrate his favor. We also have an instance when Moses was speaking to God concerning his commission to go forth and speak to Pharaoh, and he said,


And how does God respond?


So it is in fact God who makes the mute, the deaf, and the blind. But why does he do this? So that he may show his power to heal, as Jesus even says,



So not only do we know that the Father has created all sinners to demonstrate wrath or mercy, but he has also created the sick so that through them he may demonstrate his power to heal, and that he also exhibits control over the hearts of man to either cause them to draw closer or further away from him. Paul again declares,


From out of the Father and through the Father and for the Father have all things been predetermined... all things, down to every blink of your eye and to the falling of every leaf of all trees. All things have been preordained before the foundation of the world. How do we know that this scripture was referring to predetermination and not just the creation of things? Because of this verse that precedes it,


So again, this verse is in fact conveying that God has sold all men to disobedience, so that he may then show mercy on all, and in this is the predetermination of God is also conveyed, not only in this verse, but also in the verses that follow. Going further, throughout various scriptures we also see indicated that God chooses and God preordains,


Notice how this scripture says he chose us before the founding of the world. So even before the world was founded, you were already chosen, or rejected, and even your very choices to draw closer to him, or further away from him, were already ordained. Here we have these other scriptures showing that God chooses and predestines,


He foreknows because he predefines. And Even Jesus said here,


Even though his disciples did choose to follow Jesus, it was actually because it was God who first chose them and caused them to choose to follow Jesus. Here are more scriptures regarding the preselection of God,




For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (Jude 1:4 [ESV])



In choosing sinners that do not deserve his mercy is where his grace, or rather, his favor shown. His mercy is granted out of his goodwill and kindness, and and in his choice to to give favor and love, does he then cover a multitude of sins, as it is said,


We also have this scripture concerning those that martyred Jesus,


Even those that martyred Jesus were ordained to do what they did in killing Jesus. Here are some more examples concering preappointment and predefinition,



Not only does did he create and predetermine all things, but the Father knows all things, including every little smidgeon of detail concerning what he has made. He knows all things, as Jesus even says,


Imagine counting the hairs of the heads of the billions of humans that exist. This is just one instance of how deep his involvement is in everything that he has created. All things are in fact held together by the Father, and he has put all things he has made under the subjection of Jesus,


Even nothing can contain the Father, as he is greater than all things he has made,


This is why there is the son of God, because although the Father cannot himself dwell in anything he has created, as he is unfathomably higher than anything he has made, he has chosen to have a very representation of himself to carry out all things concerning himself, his power to create, his great love, his great mercy, and soon to be, his great wrath and judgment through the son of God at his second coming... all these things are carried out by Jesus who acts as God on creation, demonstrating all these attributes of the Father in the highest way above all living beings. Jesus is the exact representation of the Father, but he himself is also subjected to the Father, as the Father is greater than he, as Jesus himself says,


And even Jesus does not know all that the Father has preordained, as he even says,


And even Jesus himself has no power to do his own will, except what is given to him by the Father to do and what has been prepared beforehand by the Father, as he even says,


So then one person might say, if the Father has indeed ordained all things, then why is there an instance of him repenting of having made man right before he brought forth the great flood? Lets look at the scripture,


Notice how in this scripture after God pondered, he then spoke. The Father has no need to ponder, nor to repent, as he has already ordained all things. Instead, in the speaking does it become evident that it was Jesus who spoke of having repented of the making of man. And Jesus, as a living being as we are, who is lesser than the Father, since the Father is great than he, can exhibit this form of regret, as he himself is not the one who preordains, as even before his crucifixion we have this,


Jesus did not want to have to endure the terrible pain, suffering, and death he was about to endure, who would? But he knew what the Father had preordained, and instead conformed to the will of the Father instead of his own will. So the reluctance he demonstrates in this verse is similar to the regret he demonstrates in the other. So how do we know Jesus uttered those words concerning his regret of having made man? Because of this scripture,


This scripture indicates that Jesus was the "word of God", and that through the word did all living beings come to existence. Word in the Greek means, "speech, talking". So by indicating "word of God", it is in fact indicating these very words in the Genesis account of creation,


Those very words that were spoken by God are in fact the words uttered by Jesus speaking things into existence, hence why he is called the "word of God", or rather, the "speech of God". So it stands to reason if these very words were uttered by Jesus, that the very words concerning his regret of having made man were also uttered by him.

All these things concerning the preordainment of God is why the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, because in understanding that all things are ordained by him, do you then fear him, and begin to attain wisdom. What wisdom? The wisdom of why he created things the way he did, that is wisdom.


And even Jesus said,


Having the fear of God is a good thing, as it also begins to impart wisdom to those that understand, and it helps to restrain those that fear him from sinning,


Finally, we have concluded that all things have been preordained by God, and that all things have been made to serve a purpose and to bring glory to his name.

cgavira,

I don't know if I have enough time to address the long post. I'll try to address the scripture.

1. John 6:44 says nothing about those who reject him. It only says that no one can be saved unless the father draws him.

2. Romans 9:12-13; hated means preference and this is due to the father knowing the nature of both men just as one who has children and know what they most like will do. Jacob deceived to get Esau's birthright but he eventually came to his senses later to become and fulfill the covenant. Esau had the same chance but he didn't.

3. Romans 9:15-18 I have already explained and you have not rebutted it but explained your position only and what you think the wording denotes. This is not the context.
Romans 9:17 and Exodus 7:3-5; God always uses situations and people that rebel against him to show that he is the creator and they are the created.

4. God has never predestinated a man to go to hell and you have not shown a scripture to prove that. The plan of God was predestinated and not the individual choice of a person. The teachings you espouse are not new and they seem to be Calvinistic or Reformed theology in nature. God has to be a just judge and that line of thinking is not scriptural.
Verse 22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Long suffering shows God in his wrath shows grace at the same time. God knows if and when an individual is at the point of no return but he has to offer grace otherwise he would have no right to damn them.

5. Proverbs 16:20 is the destination for those who don't believe. This is not speaking of a predestination with no chance to ever be saved or given an opportunity. This is not just logic.

6. Romans 8 is speaking of the plan of redemption being predestinated and the christian being predestination to be conformed to the image of God's son which has to do with sanctification and not salvation.

7. Jeremiah 1:5 God does appoint and he gives gifts but that doesn't mean that the person will not do it or cannot refuse to use the gift for God.
The whole essence of the T-U-L-I-P is about God's sovereignty not being overtaken and yet the extremity is the tainting of God's just judgement and character of holiness. That is like saying a parent can abuse their child just because they have the right to and then say it doesn't taint their character.
Every covenant of man has been conditioned by freewill obedience.

8. John 15:16; God does choose us and at the same time we choose to serve him. It is a reciprocal relationship and the chosen and ordained are in connection with bearing fruit because that is the design of an obedient child to the father. There is no reason for God having his will that none should perish if his atonement is limited and the limited atonement is what the T-U-L-I-P teaches.

9. Acts 4:27-28 is true because they rejected Christ. Your logic is like saying that because the gentiles didn't have a covenant with God they had no chance in order to be saved and God just damned them for that reason. Herod and Pilate and the children of Israel however, knew about God and they were not ignorant. Even the antediluvians were not ignorant of God and they chose not to keep him in their memory.

10. God didn't create evil as in sin and he did not create sinners. Satan was perfect until he sinned and he is the Father of lies and sin. Because he was creative and had freewill choice he could sin but God didn't make him sin for he demanded obedience and the same way with man. Where sin is God judges and he has the power of the laws of nature and he can make things crooked to straighten them out. Israel demonstrated this in all of their history of sinning and being oppressed by a nation God used to bring them back to him.

11. There is no argument of God having order and predestinating certain things etc. They all have to be understood in the proper perspective and not in general terms.

12. Romans 11:32; For God hat concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. This context is speaking of the jewish people who had rejected Christ and was in unbelief. God had given them an eternal covenant with a blessing and cursing system and so he will fulfill that covenant but only with holy and obedient people. In unbelief is the only way to be able to show mercy. Your perception makes it sound like God made them sin so he could have mercy and this would not be true. God required obedience and when they didn't he had a nation oppressed them to bring reconciliation and show mercy.

13. God does not pre-ordain everything. Does he pre-ordain that you sin as a christian just so he can have mercy on you. In the book of Romans 6 there were people thought that if they sinned more since there was grace God would get more glory and Paul said, God forbid!
If you believe God has ordained everything even when you sin just so he can have mercy then you don't understand God's hatred for sin and not wanting us to be stained by sin and to abstain from all appearance of evil.

14. God is sovereign in all things but it has to be understood in the proper perspective of what that means in proper context. God's sovereignty reigns supreme despite what an individual, saint or sinner does. God's sovereignty has to harmonize with his character of holiness.
You still haven't addressed the questions I posed in the previous post I sent. Try again. Jerry kelso

 

[Hoghead1]

It does matter a great deal, Cgiviria, whether you are laity or not. That's the mistake you are making. Certainly as a lay person you are entitled to your opinion. But the scholars have much more material and knowledge to go on than maybe you do. Scripture should not be an excuse for persons to become anti-intellectual and assume higher education is unnecessary and for the birds, as you are doing. Infant or amateur though you may be, you are definitely not speaking any wisdom here. There is simply too much material you have glossed over here. You appear to have no real knowledge of Scripture and no little insight into various human-made concepts such as predestination. If you did know your stuff here, you would have shown a real awareness of the fact more than one passage in Scripture completely contradicts predestination, and that this whole concept is purely human-made by the church fathers, anyway. You appear to think that you have a monopoly on God's truth whereas your Christian brethren, especially those that may disagree with you do not and therefore aren't worth paying attention to, especially those with higher education in universities. To me, that is just plain arrogance and conceit on your part. It is also most unbiblical, as Scripture makes clear that some are appointed to be teachers, not all, just some; and with your expressed contempt for higher education, I sure don't think that applies to you. When Paul refers to the "theologies of the world," it is precisely persons such as you he is referring to, who are simply going off half-cocked. Not everyone is able to become a learned person, as you mistakenly say above. It takes real talent and a lot of very hard work. And to be honest, I sure don't see that evidenced in your above remarks.

 

[cgaviria]

It does matter a great deal, Cgiviria, whether you are laity or not. That's the mistake you are making. Certainly as a lay person you are entitled to your opinion. But the scholars have much more material and knowledge to go on than maybe you do. Scripture should not be an excuse for persons to become anti-intellectual and assume higher education is unnecessary and for the birds, as you are doing. Infant or amateur though you may be, you are definitely not speaking any wisdom here. There is simply too much material you have glossed over here. You appear to have no real knowledge of Scripture and no little insight into various human-made concepts such as predestination. If you did know your stuff here, you would have shown a real awareness of the fact more than one passage in Scripture completely contradicts predestination, and that this whole concept is purely human-made by the church fathers, anyway. You appear to think that you have a monopoly on God's truth whereas your Christian brethren, especially those that may disagree with you do not and therefore aren't worth paying attention to, especially those with higher education in universities. To me, that is just plain arrogance and conceit on your part. It is also most unbiblical, as Scripture makes clear that some are appointed to be teachers, not all, just some; and with your expressed contempt for higher education, I sure don't think that applies to you. When Paul refers to the "theologies of the world," it is precisely persons such as you he is referring to, who are simply going off half-cocked. Not everyone is able to become a learned person, as you mistakenly say above. It takes real talent and a lot of very hard work. And to be honest, I sure don't see that evidenced in your above remarks.

It does not matter buddy, were not the Pharisees and Sadducees and scribes all learned men concerning the Law of Moses, and not themselves blind and were worse than the regular sinners because they perceived themselves to be wise? Let the scriptures speak for themselves, whether it be me talking, or another person talking. I have presented you with certain scriptures, will you deny these scriptures on the basis that it was I that presented them to you and not a scholar? That is ridiculous. Is it perhaps because of how hard this teaching is for you to accept that you are then trying to lay finger on my credentials to try to cast it aside?

 

[Hoghead1]

That's the problem. If we are all Pharisees and the blind leading the blind today, what says you are some big exception to this? What says you know anything about Scripture at all? Why should we believe anything you say? So far, all you have given is your lay opinion on the Bible, wit no real supporting evidence that anything you say is a valid understanding of Scripture at all. And I know for a fact that had you gone into a deeper study of matters, you would have realized your teachings way off here from what Scripture actually says and means. The reason why I wanted to get an advanced dccation is so I could avoid getting caught up in the highly questionable opinions of an uneducated laioty.

 

[cgaviria]

That's the problem. If we are all Pharisees and the blind leading the blind today, what says you are some big exception to this? What says you know anything about Scripture at all? Why should we believe anything you say? So far, all you have given is your lay opinion on the Bible, wit no real supporting evidence that anything you say is a valid understanding of Scripture at all. And I know for a fact that had you gone into a deeper study of matters, you would have realized your teachings way off here from what Scripture actually says and means. The reason why I wanted to get an advanced dccation is so I could avoid getting caught up in the highly questionable opinions of an uneducated laioty.

Then so be it, deny what I have to say based on whatever reasonings you conjure up to discredit me. May your blood be on your own head, I have nothing further to say to you.