(MOVED) Where was God/Jesus when I needed them?

[dysert]

I do not see how you jump to this conclusion. You seem to have constructed a strawman Jesus to find fault with. Even though there is not one shred of evidence to support the contention, for argument's sake let us pretend that I agreed that Jesus liked to drink wine to excess. How would his doing that contradict any of the claims he made about himself? Does your own admitted lack of experience with drunkenness make you less tolerant of that behavior in others than you would be of behaviors you do participate in but others might find just as intolerable as you seem to find drunkenness?

Finally, It would be interesting to know your motivation for this post. Why did you decided to approach this website , one that by its title would seem to be the abode of true believers, with your disappointment in Christ rather than going to a website where your observations would have been more likely to have been reinforced by the approval of those of like mind?

He couldn't have even drunk wine to excess. Being drunk is a sin, and Jesus was sinless.

 

[grasping the after wind]

He couldn't have even drunk wine to excess. Being drunk is a sin, and Jesus was sinless.

Obviously Bluecheese does not share our POV on that so if I want to have any kind of reasonable discussion with her on the subject I do not find that insisting that she just accept my POV and reject her own is a good way of doing that.

As a matter of fact though I disagree with your premise. I do not believe that God( and we both agree that Jesus Christ is God) is bound by any moral strictures that he has decided to apply to humans. So if God were to, for some reason, decide to become drunk that would not be a sin for him as God is God and not subject to the restrictions he places upon us. God cannot sin because he is God not because God is subject to a code of morality that he must follow religiously in order to maintain his sinlessness. He is sinless because nothing God does is against God's will. If you or I do a thing it is a sin because God told us not to do it. If God does the same thing he told us not to do it is not a sin because God did not tell God not to do it.

 

[dysert]

Obviously Bluecheese does not share our POV on that so if I want to have any kind of reasonable discussion with her on the subject I do not find that insisting that she just accept my POV and reject her own is a good way of doing that.

As a matter of fact though I disagree with your premise. I do not believe that God( and we both agree that Jesus Christ is God) is bound by any moral strictures that he has decided to apply to humans. So if God were to, for some reason, decide to become drunk that would not be a sin for him as God is God and not subject to the restrictions he places upon us. God cannot sin because he is God not because God is subject to a code of morality that he must follow religiously in order to maintain his sinlessness. He is sinless because nothing God does is against God's will. If you or I do a thing it is a sin because God told us not to do it. If God does the same thing he told us not to do it is not a sin because God did not tell God not to do it.

I understand what you're saying. I don't agree with your explanation, but at least we do both agree that Jesus (as God) could not have sinned.

 

[PropheticTimes]

The walls are built, the belief fades, when we put our limitations on God. If He doesn't answer prayer in OUR time, in OUR way, in THIS amount of time, by doing THIS, we assume He either doesn't hear or doesn't care when in truth He is working it out under His own understanding (which is much greater) and in His own timing (which is perfect).

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I wrote this poem some years ago. When I was a child of eleven, and a believer in Christianity, I needed God to give me some evidence of his presence as I was in dire need of comfort and support. I had an issue which troubled me and gave me unpleasant nightmares. I never ever had any sense of the presence of the deity or Jesus. If they couldn't support a child either they didn't care, or more likely they didn't exist. The doubts grew until I lost my faith by the end of my teenage years.


•Where Are You God?

•Where are you God when we need you?
•Where are you God when we pray?
•Where are you God in our darkness?
•Where are you God in our day?
•Where are you God in grief’s anguish?
•Where are you God in our despair?
•Where are you God in our torment?
•Where are you God, are you there?
•Where are you God when we’re hurting?
•Where are you God in our pain?
•Where are you God in our crying?
•Where are you God, please explain?
•RJG

In so far as poems go this is rather simple. You should read some Nietzsche, his prose is really very good. If this is given as an expression of angst then good on you, we all experience angst every day some of us find refuge in religion some don't. Angst is one of those things that exist whether or not one believes in God or not. If you think your 11 year old self had a valid criticism against religion because of hardship then that's just feeble. There's a Marxist argument for religion just as there is one against religion, ever notice that it's always the wealthy Westerners who find religion unsatisfactory?

 

[Albion]

Well read the gospels for yourself you will find it all there!

You're essentially trying to get even with God by provoking those who believe in Him, I take it.

FWIW, I'm glad some of them called your bluff on this particular ploy.

 

[Bluecheese]

You're essentially trying to get even with God by provoking those who believe in Him, I take it.

FWIW, I'm glad some of them called your bluff on this particular ploy.

As I don't believe the Biblical version of a deity exists why on earth should I want to get even with it?

 

[Albion]

As I don't believe the Biblical version of a deity exists why on earth should I want to get even with it?

Hurt feelings? You yourself made that be a feature of your original post.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I understand what you're saying. I don't agree with your explanation, but at least we do both agree that Jesus (as God) could not have sinned.

Yes, As Christians, let's celebrate our points of agreement as those tend to be more substantive than our disagreements which tend to be on unimportant details or having different perspectives but coming to the same conclusions .

 

[Bluecheese]

Hurt feelings? You yourself made that be a feature of your original post.

Never mind, it really isn't important, we will have to agree to differ on the topic.

 

[dysert]

I feel it should be pointed out that the Scriptural account of the wedding at Cana says the guests were drunk enough that they could no longer tell the difference between good wine and poor wine. My ex grew up in a wine producing part of Germany. While her ability to tell good from bad wine is diminished after a lot, it is far from gone. Can't tell good from bad is a bottle more than falling down drunk.

That is a popular interpretation, but of course it's just an interpretation. The Bible doesn't actually say the people were drunk. Regardless, it says nothing about Jesus' state of drunkenness.

 

[Albion]

That is a popular interpretation, but of course it's just an interpretation. The Bible doesn't actually say the people were drunk.

That's very true, yet people almost always assume it.

 

[rockytopva]

All flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away... - 1 Peter 1:24
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. - Revelation 12:12
Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. - James 4:14

Science has found a galaxy about 13 billion light years from earth. If we are only expanding out at a rate of 68 km/sec, or 150,000 mph

13 billion light years = 76,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles

76,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 miles / 150,000 mph = 500,000,000,000,000,000 hours

500,000,000,000,000,000 hours / 8760 hours in a year = 57,000,000,000,000 Years


To go to the distant galaxy at the rate of the current expansion of the universe would take 57 trillion years. In which by the time you got there you would find space at the temperature of absolute zero. Compared to times we use to measure astrology our lifespan is a mere spit in the bucket. We are not that far away from having our ashes returned to the earth. You had better make sure your eternal reckonings are correct, we are very close to having our souls cast out into the great eternal sea!

 

[Bluecheese]

Well we are never likely to prove whether Jesus got drunk or not, or any of the other things claimed for him.

 

[rockytopva]

Well we are never likely to prove whether Jesus got drunk or not, or any of the other things claimed for him.

That is why we need to get you drunk on the new wine... The Holy Ghost! It is the Spirit of God that brings Christianity alive!

 

[Strong in Him]

I wrote this poem some years ago. When I was a child of eleven, and a believer in Christianity, I needed God to give me some evidence of his presence as I was in dire need of comfort and support. I had an issue which troubled me and gave me unpleasant nightmares. I never ever had any sense of the presence of the deity or Jesus. If they couldn't support a child either they didn't care, or more likely they didn't exist. The doubts grew until I lost my faith by the end of my teenage years.


•Where Are You God?

•Where are you God when we need you?
•Where are you God when we pray?
•Where are you God in our darkness?
•Where are you God in our day?
•Where are you God in grief’s anguish?
•Where are you God in our despair?
•Where are you God in our torment?
•Where are you God, are you there?
•Where are you God when we’re hurting?
•Where are you God in our pain?
•Where are you God in our crying?
•Where are you God, please explain?
•RJG

He was there, with you, right in the middle of it.

God does not sit on a cloud, untouched, and indifferent to, our suffering. He came to earth, in Jesus, to live as one of us.
God knows, from personal experience, what it is like to suffer hurt, rejection, loneliness, disappointment, frustration, betrayal by a close friend, mocking, torture, physical pain and degrading death. Jesus also took all the weight of sin upon himself and felt abandoned by his Father, on the cross. And he did all this willingly, so that we could be reconciled to God, know that he is our Father and we are his children, and that we can go to him and ask for his help.

I don't know what happened when you were 11; maybe you asked for help, were expecting to feel something and didn't. Maybe God answered in a way you didn't expect and you didn't recognise it. All I know is that he hasn't given up on YOU - even if you have with him; that there are people who can listen to, pray with and counsel you to help remove those hurts and that God is wanting you to know his love, joy and peace.

 

[Strong in Him]

You have so much claims to God
-Do you watch/read/keep inappropriate content
-Do you give to the poor
-Do you curse people
-Do you commit sinful sexual activity/touch/buy sex
-Do you read Bible
-Do you pray and give it all to God
-Do you obey parents
-Do you drink alcohol
-Do you use drugs
-Do you smoke cigarette or weeds
-Do you really study at school or just messing around
-Do you thank God for every bread you eat
-Do you thank God for the fresh air that you breathe, the fresh water u drink
-Do you love your neighbour
-Do you drive dangerously
-Do you litter everywhere
-Do you slander people
-Do you torture animals
-Did you steal your parents money
-Do you envy the others

Evaluate urself cause God is as close as our shadow

Are you implying that God cannot, and will not, be close to us or answer our prayers unless we DO something to prove ourselves worthy? How, then, would any of us be able to call out to him?

 

[Strong in Him]

Well we are never likely to prove whether Jesus got drunk or not, or any of the other things claimed for him.

But the Gospel is that Jesus died for our sins - if he himself was a sinner, then he was dying for his own sins, not ours, and we don't have a Gospel.
Peter called Jesus the spotless Lamb, chosen from the foundation of the world, 1 Peter 1:19-20, and John the Baptist said that he was the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29. In the Old Testament, a lamb, or other animal, that was sacrificed to make atonement for sin, had to be without spot or blemish otherwise it wouldn't have been acceptable to God. Jesus was acceptable to God; he was his own Son. God raised Jesus from the dead, proving that he was who he had said he was and the claims he made about himself were correct; if Jesus had been wrong, a sinner, blasphemer and false Messiah, as some people believed, he would have remained dead and not raised again.

 

[Bluecheese]

There is no verifiable evidence that anything attributed to Jesus was true. Surely if he had resurrected he would have stuck around on earth instead of conveniently disappearing up to heaven, and making the Christina religion a matter of faith rather than substantiated fact?

 

[Strong in Him]

There is no verifiable evidence that anything attributed to Jesus was true.

Oh there's loads of evidence - like the Gospels and NT, like a few million changed lives, like the fact that Christianity is a major world religion, the Bible has been translated into many languages and people have given their lives for what they believe.

Surely if he had resurrected he would have stuck around on earth

He did - for 40 days. He taught his disciples during that time and answered questions, so that some of them were well qualified to write it all down and produce documents about his teaching and reason for coming.

instead of conveniently disappearing up to heaven, and making the Christina religion a matter of faith rather than substantiated fact?

There are a number of facts that substantiate the Christian religion. Apart from those I've already said, we can confirm that various places that are mentioned in Scripture existed, or still exist, and there is some archaeological evidence. Jewish authors and writings confirm people such as Moses and David - Jesus quoted both of these.

The things that require faith are that there is one God, who is Spirit and who wants a relationship with each one of us; that such a relationship was impossible because of our sin - we messed it up, basically - but that he sent Jesus to offer his life so that we can be forgiven. It requires faith, and humility, to accept that we can't get to heaven by ourselves and by doing things ourselves; we need Jesus. It takes some faith to believe in the resurrection, though as no corpse was ever produced, and no one could stop Christians from declaring that he was alive and they had seen him - even beatings and imprisonment did not stop that - I feel you'd need just as much faith to believe that he stayed dead, or that he revived somehow and escaped from a sealed tomb as you would to believe that he was raised from the dead by God. We need faith to talk to God and trust that he will answer, even if we don't like the answer at the time.

There are many things in this world which require us to have faith, if you think about it.
We have faith that people produce our food correctly; I don't know of anyone who demands their meat is put under a microscope to prove that there are no germs, before we buy it from the supermarket. If we buy a ready meal, we have faith that it contains the ingredients the makers say that it contains. We have faith that our partners will cook our food correctly and not try to poison us. If we are married, we had faith when we made our vows that our partner would keep them.
We have faith that the money we hand over will be accepted to pay for our various goods - that we won't be sent to prison for paying for an ipad with paper.
We have faith that our electrical appliances and gadgets are wired correctly, and that anything we buy - whether online or not - will do what it is supposed to do and not blow up/wear out/collapse the minute we use it. We make plans ahead of time and trust that when we feel tired and go to sleep, that we will wake up the next day. I have faith that you exist - not as a piece of Blue cheese, but as a real person. If you told me stuff about your life, I'd have no reason not to believe it - even though I've never seen, nor met, you.

And whether they admit it or not, everyone has faith in something - in horoscopes, fortune telling, money, good looks, qualifications, or that there is no God and human beings, or fate, are responsible for our lives and destiny. People who choose not to put their faith in God, are more than likely quite happy to put it in something else.