Open Heart
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- Aug 3, 2014
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Why was so much of the good stuff taken out of the New SOP, like no anti-Christianity or anti-Pauline stuff?
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Both wordings seem overly vague to me. Without specifically defining what the "covenantal responsibilities within Torah" or "commandments in Torah that apply to them," are, the field is left wide open.
It's called being sidelined. Fill the field with players so you can't tell which team is which. Then when enough players have entered the game the original players become sidelined. It's a very political move. It's being played out currently through the Syrian refugee crisis as we a speak. Flood the country with enough refugees that you can't tell who is a fundamentalist or not. Then when enough are in, dominate.
Having the statements more detailed and specific is what would side-line many. It gives more ammo to point at the one who is not a perfect fit, and would narrow down who could be considered MJ.
"While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any [Messianic] Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."
The point by several MJ members is that the language of the new MJ SOP is misrepresenting the views of many Messianic Gentiles as well as most all Messianic Jews. Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon now takes on an entirely different meaning which is apparently unsettling to not only many Messianic Gentiles, but also most all Messianic Jews.Having the statements more detailed and specific is what would side-line many.
"While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any [Messianic] Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."
The point by several MJ members is that the language of the new MJ SOP is misrepresenting the views of many Messianic Gentiles as well as most all Messianic Jews. Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon now takes on an entirely different meaning which is apparently unsettling to not only many Messianic Gentiles, but also most all Messianic Jews.
The previous SOP made it clear that Torah Observance was a "must"/mandatory requirement for Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles displaying a "Messianic" faith icon. The new SOP language gives the impression that it is no longer a "must" (mandatory) for everyone displaying the "Messianic" faith icon to "keep Torah, only those that are called to do so." Does CF really understand that the language of the new MJ SOP lends an entirely different interpretation to Messianic Judaism. An interpretation that is seen as disparaging to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles that are Torah Observant? The new SOP language basically means the following. Was this really CFs intent ?
While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Messianic Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. Likewise, we don't believe all Messianic Jews must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.
Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon means that Torah Observant is no longer a "must," but rather up to the discretion of each MJ member. Changing my faith icon from "Christian" to "Messianic" was a mistake. It could easily be perceived as sticking one's finger in the eye of another as if I'm approving (which i'm not) of CFs departure from Torah Observance being integral to Messianic Judaism.
Exactly, It forces ones relationship with God to be dependent on observance to the law.The problem is if you make it a must. Then the other problem I see is it causes separation between our Christian brothers and sisters by stating we observe out of love God. The question can be 'what do you mean I don't love God'?
The problem is if you make it a must. Then the other problem I see is it causes separation between our Christian brothers and sisters by stating we observe out of love God. The question can be 'what do you mean I don't love God'?
John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.
1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.
The *scriptures that FreeinChrist and pat34lee have posted presents a meaning to Torah that both Jews and Gentiles, Messianics and Christians can/should agree is foundational. So, my point was why then the need to have language that implies that not all Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles need to "keep the Torah, only those called to do so." That language gives more credence to Torah meaning the "observance to the law" and how some of the original players may have defined Messianic Judaism. Thought that is what you meant by your previous post which seemed to imply that the original players are those that believe the "observance to the law" is integral to Messianic Judaism and that they may become [further] sidelined by the new MJ SOP.Exactly, It forces ones relationship with God to be dependent on observance to the law.
Those commands do not refer to Moses, but to Yeshua's words.
Hi Vis,I have a question.... How can anyone claim to be Messianic and not be Torah observant? Is that a conflict with the image of Yeshua who is the epitome of Torah.
Sorry you feel that way....we didn't change the forum as the rules always lent themselves to this way of thinking.....Torah was never a must, for instance you could never walk up to an MJ and say your not saved unless you follow Torah.The point by several MJ members is that the language of the new MJ SOP is misrepresenting the views of many Messianic Gentiles as well as most all Messianic Jews. Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon now takes on an entirely different meaning which is apparently unsettling to not only many Messianic Gentiles, but also most all Messianic Jews.
The previous SOP made it clear that Torah Observance was a "must"/mandatory requirement for Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles displaying a "Messianic" faith icon. The new SOP language gives the impression that it is no longer a "must" (mandatory) for everyone displaying the "Messianic" faith icon to "keep Torah, only those that are called to do so." Does CF really understand that the language of the new MJ SOP lends an entirely different interpretation to Messianic Judaism. An interpretation that is seen as disparaging to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles that are Torah Observant? The new SOP language basically means the following. Was this really CFs intent ?
While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Messianic Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. Likewise, we don't believe all Messianic Jews must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.
Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon means that Torah Observant is no longer a "must," but rather up to the discretion of each MJ member. Changing my faith icon from "Christian" to "Messianic" was a mistake. It could easily be perceived as sticking one's finger in the eye of another as if I'm approving (which i'm not) of CFs departure from Torah Observance being integral to Messianic Judaism.
Two things.
1. There is nothing new in the New Testament.