Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[FreeinChrist]

I am starting this so that members can discuss the new Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose with admin staff.

Are some changes. For instance, this is in there now:

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.​

This will not be a report free thread, so please keep the comments within the rules.

 

[Heber Book List]

I returned not to debate, it is better to give information for people to grow, not be destroyed, but I cannot let this slip by, unseen.

What on earth is a Jew of any faith? A Jew is a Jew and remains a Jew, even if they believe in Yeshua. That is why this forum is called Messianic Judaism, not Messianic Christianity or Messianic Buddhism, or Messianic Zoroastrianism.

The term 'Jews of any faith' is of itself, a form of Replacement Theology because they never give up, or change, their faith that is called Judaism and they are never required to on here; it is, in fact, THE faith that many Gentiles on here want to join, not the other way round!

 

[FreeinChrist]

There are Jews here who are also part of a denomination such as Anglican or Catholic. While they cannot promote that church's beliefs that are unique to it, they are welcome here and can share why they are also Messianic and why they follow the Torah.

 

[Heber Book List]

There are Jews here who are also part of a denomination such as Anglican or Catholic. While they cannot promote that church's beliefs that are unique to it, they are welcome here and can share why they are also Messianic and why they follow the Torah.

But that is not what it says, Catholics and Protestants are NOT other faiths - they are denominations within the faith that is called Christianity! An 'other faith' is that which one converts into. Jews do NOT convert into Christianity if they go to a Church. To say they do is clear and blatant Replacement Theology!

 

[FreeinChrist]

This forum is also under the Statement of Faith for the site. Is this the part you are referring to? -
"the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to"

 

[Heber Book List]

Err, no, it is the New MJ SOP as in the sticky at the head of these fora:


Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose
Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.* While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.

We believe:

• First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
• Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
• That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’.
• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
• That Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah and on this forum both Jews and Gentiles that fear G-d and wish to walk in His commandments shall be allowed to do so without recrimination.

>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<
Posts against these beliefs, or with the following content, will be actioned by staff.
Non-negotiable points:

1. No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or of Yeshua as Messiah**
2. No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people, or that Messianic Jews or Gentiles must forsake their covenantal responsibilities within Torah.
3. No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made invalid for today.
   
4. Likewise there are to be no posts promoting Torah is exclusive to Jews only.

Additional Guidelines

Duel Attendance: Those who share our beliefs but do not attend a Messianic congregation and are in another denomination may post in this forum with the stipulation that they will not teach their Churches doctrines here. Please signify this in your signature or title found under your screen name. Please make sure you have read this thread & have agreed to its provisos before posting here.

Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe as Yeshua taught that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.


Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage: may be discussed by MJ members only, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

_________________________________________________________________

*Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated. While we understand the reason behind anti-missionary work, we will not tolerate the operation of such on these forums, this means in postings as well as private communication throughout this site.

 

[Open Heart]

The term 'Jews of any faith' is of itself, a form of Replacement Theology

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are saying that Judaism is Replacement Theology. How so?

 

[FreeinChrist]

So it is this?
**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated.

"Jews of any faith" does sound odd. The intent here is that non-Messianic Jews can come and ask questions, but can't teach against the beliefs of this forum or against the site Statement of Faith.

We have non-Christians and folks who are not members asking questions in other congregational forum and that is okay. They cannot teach against that congregations beliefs. The same here. We do welcome non-Trinitarian Messianics here but they must stay within the rules of the site and this forum.

 

[Shimshon]

You could say; 'we welcome non-Messianic Jews' This way you avoid the term 'non-believing'.

 

[FreeinChrist]

That is a good suggestion - let me bring it up to the team. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Heber Book List]

So it is this?
**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated.

"Jews of any faith" does sound odd. The intent here is that non-Messianic Jews can come and ask questions, but can't teach against the beliefs of this forum or against the site Statement of Faith.

We have non-Christians and folks who are not members asking questions in other congregational forum and that is okay. They cannot teach against that congregations beliefs. The same here. We do welcome non-Trinitarian Messianics here but they must stay within the rules of the site and this forum.

Then it needs to say that 'non-Messianic Jews... '. I'm sure that would suffice for all to be clear. But 'Jews of any faith' is a nonsense statement in reality.

 

[Heber Book List]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are saying that Judaism is Replacement Theology. How so?

Yes, you did misunderstand me, a little bit. To says 'Jews of other faiths' implies that when a Jew accepts Jesus, he/she becomes a Christian, but NOT a Jew. That is not so, strictly speaking. A Jew remains a Jew even when he / she accepts Yeshua into their lives. They do NOT give up their faith, which is Judaism (that is RT), if they did this would be Christian Forums with nothing Jewish about it.

 

[Open Heart]

"Jews of any faith" does sound odd. The intent here is that non-Messianic Jews can come and ask questions, but can't teach against the beliefs of this forum or against the site Statement of Faith.

The thing is this: we have wonderful Rabbinic Jews who are not at all interested in anit-Missionary activity, but who get sanctioned for even explaining Judaism to us...WHICH WE LIKE.

 

[Open Heart]

Jews do NOT convert into Christianity of they go to a Church. To say they do is clear and blatant Replacement Theology!

Wait... A Jew doesn't convert if they move from Judaism to Christianity? Since when? And how is it Replacement Theology? Are you saying there is something wrong with Jews who choose to be a part of the Christian churches?

 

[Open Heart]

Judaism (that is RT)

You are incorrectly using the term Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology is by definition the idea that The Church has replaced Israel.

 

[Heber Book List]

You are incorrectly using the term Replacement Theology. Replacement Theology is by definition the idea that The Church has replaced Israel.

Replacement Theology is the assimilation of Jews into the Church where they are stripped of their Jewishness and become Christians. This in turn becomes your definition - that the Church replaces Judaism (not Israel, the land), but with only the blessings, not the curses, placed upon it.

Your definition is the ultimate reality, but the steps to reach that are the beginnings of RT.

Read 'Future Israel' by Barry Horner.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I will be watching the reports that come from this forum, plus they can start a thread in the Member Services Center.

 

[Heber Book List]

Wait... A Jew doesn't convert if they move from Judaism to Christianity? Since when? And how is it Replacement Theology? Are you saying there is something wrong with Jews who choose to be a part of the Christian churches?

Oh dear... no they do not. To convert is to renounce an existing faith and take on a new faith - that is precisely what RT is all about and why it is wrong and not allowed on here. They become Messianic Jews- with the word Jew at the end! No I have not said that - I have said that they remain Jews. The argument you put forward is very similar to the exact opposite - that they become Christians, not Jews. THAT is clearly RT.

Think about it!

PM me if you want to continue this conversation as this is not what this thread is about

 

[Shimshon]

I see a contradiction here;

1

This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.

This implies NOT ALL Jews and Gentiles are called to keep Torah. A standard MJ belief*.

2

That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’.

This implies that Yeshua has instructed (all) us (Jews and Gentiles) to keep the Torah of Moses. A one law belief.

3

or that Messianic Jews or Gentiles must forsake their covenantal responsibilities within Torah

This implies that (all) Jews and/or Gentiles have a covenantal responsibility to keep Torah. A one law belief.

I realize your trying to appease both groups here. But you are setting yourself up for division and divisiveness by attempting to squeeze two opposing beliefs within one statement of purpose.

I see this happening. The one law believer teaches that Yeshua kept the Torah of Moses and has instructed 'us' Jews and Gentiles to keep it (follow me). The Messianic Jew replies back that NOT ALL Jews and/or Gentiles are called to this 'irrevocable calling'. The one law believer responds that both Jews and/or Gentiles MUST NOT forsake our covenantal responsibilities within the Torah. The MJ responds that not ALL have this calling.

And we are right back to were we started........ because of these contractions within the SOP.

*What makes this all the more confusing is this implies that 'we believe'... 'not all Jews are called to keep Torah.

You bother to differentiate the ALL in number one, but you do not differentiate any difference within 2 or 3. 2 states Yeshua HAS instructed us (all of us) to keep Torah (follow him). 3. states both Jews and Gentiles have a covenantal responsibility within Torah. Not some, but all. 2 and 3 contradict 1.

I would like to note that the term 'covenantal responsibilities' is taken explicitly and directly from the UMJC definition of Messianic 'Jews'. And it is being applied to 'us' ALL, both Jews and Gentiles. As if the nations of the world had/have a covenantal responsibility commanded within the Torah given to Moses. You have taken what was solely intended to identify Judaism/Jews and have remanded it and applied it to all Gentiles. A reverse replacement theology.

http://www.levhashem.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Defining_Messianic_Judaism.pdf

Do a search within this document and tell me how many times the term 'covenantal responsibility' is stated, and who it was talking about. This term was garnered from when I used the UMJC definitions to help define 'Messianic Judaism'. To commandeer this term to apply to gentiles is not really accurate nor fair.

 

[pat34lee]

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.

I don't agree with this section. All believers should keep Torah.
Those who don't and who teach others not to follow Torah will be called the
least in heaven if they are saved at all. (Matthew 5:19, John 14:15)