Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[Open Heart]

Why was so much of the good stuff taken out of the New SOP, like no anti-Christianity or anti-Pauline stuff?

 

[FreeinChrist]

It was not removed. It is against the site rules to post against Christianity in congregational forum, and there is a statement about ALL of scripture is from G-d, and that includes the letters of Paul.

The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.​

 

[FreeinChrist]

Both wordings seem overly vague to me. Without specifically defining what the "covenantal responsibilities within Torah" or "commandments in Torah that apply to them," are, the field is left wide open.

It's called being sidelined. Fill the field with players so you can't tell which team is which. Then when enough players have entered the game the original players become sidelined. It's a very political move. It's being played out currently through the Syrian refugee crisis as we a speak. Flood the country with enough refugees that you can't tell who is a fundamentalist or not. Then when enough are in, dominate.

Having the statements more detailed and specific is what would side-line many. It gives more ammo to point at the one who is not a perfect fit, and would narrow down who could be considered MJ.

 

[AbbaLove]

Having the statements more detailed and specific is what would side-line many. It gives more ammo to point at the one who is not a perfect fit, and would narrow down who could be considered MJ.

"While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any [Messianic] Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."

​

The language of the new MJ SOP seems to imply that it’s up to each Messianic Jew whether or not they, for example, “Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it Holy.” The language implies only those Messianic Jews "called to do so ... must keep Torah." It does appear that the new SOP is more representative of the Jewish Roots of Messianic Christianity than that of Messianic Judaism.

Is the SOP language really representative of "Messianic Judaism" when the second sentence gives the impression that "only those Messianic Jews called to do so, must keep Torah."

 

[visionary]

I have a question.... How can anyone claim to be Messianic and not be Torah observant? Is that a conflict with the image of Yeshua who is the epitome of Torah.

 

[AbbaLove]

Having the statements more detailed and specific is what would side-line many.

The point by several MJ members is that the language of the new MJ SOP is misrepresenting the views of many Messianic Gentiles as well as most all Messianic Jews. Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon now takes on an entirely different meaning which is apparently unsettling to not only many Messianic Gentiles, but also most all Messianic Jews.

"While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any [Messianic] Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."

The previous SOP made it clear that Torah Observance was a "must"/mandatory requirement for Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles displaying a "Messianic" faith icon. The new SOP language gives the impression that it is no longer a "must" (mandatory) for everyone displaying the "Messianic" faith icon to "keep Torah, only those that are called to do so." Does CF really understand that the language of the new MJ SOP lends an entirely different interpretation to Messianic Judaism. An interpretation that is seen as disparaging to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles that are Torah Observant? The new SOP language basically means the following. Was this really CFs intent ?

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Messianic Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. Likewise, we don't believe all Messianic Jews must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.​

Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon means that Torah Observant is no longer a "must," but rather up to the discretion of each MJ member. Changing my faith icon from "Christian" to "Messianic" was a mistake. It could easily be perceived as sticking one's finger in the eye of another as if I'm approving (which i'm not) of CFs departure from Torah Observance being integral to Messianic Judaism.

 

[big macher]

The point by several MJ members is that the language of the new MJ SOP is misrepresenting the views of many Messianic Gentiles as well as most all Messianic Jews. Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon now takes on an entirely different meaning which is apparently unsettling to not only many Messianic Gentiles, but also most all Messianic Jews.

​

The previous SOP made it clear that Torah Observance was a "must"/mandatory requirement for Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles displaying a "Messianic" faith icon. The new SOP language gives the impression that it is no longer a "must" (mandatory) for everyone displaying the "Messianic" faith icon to "keep Torah, only those that are called to do so." Does CF really understand that the language of the new MJ SOP lends an entirely different interpretation to Messianic Judaism. An interpretation that is seen as disparaging to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles that are Torah Observant? The new SOP language basically means the following. Was this really CFs intent ?

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Messianic Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. Likewise, we don't believe all Messianic Jews must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.​

Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon means that Torah Observant is no longer a "must," but rather up to the discretion of each MJ member. Changing my faith icon from "Christian" to "Messianic" was a mistake. It could easily be perceived as sticking one's finger in the eye of another as if I'm approving (which i'm not) of CFs departure from Torah Observance being integral to Messianic Judaism.

The problem is if you make it a must. Then the other problem I see is it causes separation between our Christian brothers and sisters by stating we observe out of love God. The question can be 'what do you mean I don't love God'?

 

[Shimshon]

The problem is if you make it a must. Then the other problem I see is it causes separation between our Christian brothers and sisters by stating we observe out of love God. The question can be 'what do you mean I don't love God'?

Exactly, It forces ones relationship with God to be dependent on observance to the law.

 

[FreeinChrist]

If folks are identifying as MJ, they are wanting to follow the Torah. The SOP has these:

Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.

No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made invalid for today.
​

The goal in this forum should be encouraging others to follow the Torah and Yeshua based on the love for G-d. It fits with this (NASB):
Mat 22:37
And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’

and
Deu 6:5
“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.


The reason we stated it like that is that it is best to have encouragement, and not anything that discourages in subtle or more blunt ways.

 

[pat34lee]

The problem is if you make it a must. Then the other problem I see is it causes separation between our Christian brothers and sisters by stating we observe out of love God. The question can be 'what do you mean I don't love God'?

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.

 

[visionary]

This is not a discussion about what other members of Christianity are. This is a determination of what Messianic means. The most distinction part is not our love for Yeshua the Messiah, because that is what we have in common with other Christians. What is distinction is one of the ways we reflect it, and it is in our obedience to His Commandments.

 

[Shimshon]

Those commands do not refer to Moses, but to Yeshua's words.

Acts 1:1 In the first book, O 1Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began 2to do and teach, 2 until the day when 3he was taken up, after he 4had given commands 5through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.

Yeshua gave commands through the Spirit to the to the apostles. Here is what Peter stated Yeshua commanded him.

Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.“

He commanded the apostles to preach and testify that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead, he is God in the flesh.

Context is everything. And what you just did was cherry pick the things you want the text to say. Nowhere did any verse you used indicate the commandments were referring to Moses.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

It's right there in plain English. Anyone who loves Yeshua keeps 'HIS word'. He was not referring to the law given Moses. Yeshua's word commanded that we have faith in him, and through this the Father will come and dwell within us. (spirit filled). If we don't keep Yeshua's words we won't believe this can happen. The context is about receiving the Spirit of God within our being through faith in the one God sent. The Father commanded we believe in his Son who gives the Spirit.

1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.

As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

His most basic command through Yeshua was 'believe' in me. If you love God, you would believe in the testimony he was speaking through his son. The testimony was about Yeshua, not Moses. Yeshua's words were about faith leading to a personal relationship with God through the Spirit. As proved by love for one another. Because if God is living within you, love will be pouring out of you. And John said we were to separate ourselves from those who do not hold 'this' testimony about Messiah. These verses had nothing to do with commands given Moses. Our commandments came straight from Messiah's mouth to our ears.[/QUOTE]

 

[Shimshon]

This is a determination of what Messianic means.

Messianic Judaism already has an established definition. Maybe you mean 'redetermination'?

 

[AbbaLove]

Exactly, It forces ones relationship with God to be dependent on observance to the law.

The *scriptures that FreeinChrist and pat34lee have posted presents a meaning to Torah that both Jews and Gentiles, Messianics and Christians can/should agree is foundational. So, my point was why then the need to have language that implies that not all Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles need to "keep the Torah, only those called to do so." That language gives more credence to Torah meaning the "observance to the law" and how some of the original players may have defined Messianic Judaism. Thought that is what you meant by your previous post which seemed to imply that the original players are those that believe the "observance to the law" is integral to Messianic Judaism and that they may become [further] sidelined by the new MJ SOP.

By "the original players" i thought you meant either Jews that have possibly read the NT and posted here, as well as Messianic Jews that believe their relationiship with God and Messianic Judaism is "dependent on observance to the law." In other words i took your previous post to imply that the new MJ SOP is possibly being inconsiderate of what you meant by the original players with language saying, "only those that are called to do so."

Fill the field with players so you can't tell which team is which. Then when enough players have entered the game the original players become sidelined. It's a very political move. (Shimshon)​

The sticking point seems to be differences in how the meaning of "Torah" is interpreted among the MJ members that post in this Messianic Community. Some MJs (original players) view "observance of the law;" as integral to Messianic Judaism; whereas other Messianics consider the instructional scriptures (*"commandments") in the NT to be the fulfilled Torah of G-d for all Jews and Gentiles, Christians and Messianics. Your signature suggests that you are in agreement with both FreeinChrist, pat34lee, myself and other Messianics as to how some MJs interpret the meaning of Torah as dependant upon Torah observance to the law.

The treadmill of righteousness is LOVE.......
My relationship with God is not dependent upon Torah observance.​

 

[visionary]

Torah observance is not about righteousness, though it is the walk of the righteous. It is about the way God has asked us to honor Him, respect Him, worship Him, and live according to His Way, His truth, and emanates His life.

 

[pat34lee]

Those commands do not refer to Moses, but to Yeshua's words.

Two things.
1. There is nothing new in the New Testament.
2. There was no New Testament when these were written. It all refers to the Tanakh, or Old Testament.

I would look up OT examples of the same command, but somehow I doubt it would matter to you.

Changed my mind.

Deut 6:5-6 – Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts.

Deut 10:12-13 – And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to observe the LORD’s commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good?

Deut 11:1 – Love the LORD your God and keep his requirements, his decrees, his laws and his commands always.

Deut 30:16 – For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws.

Proverbs 1:7
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

[visionary]

Let's be clear in our statement that Messianics are clearly on the side of obedience to the Law of God out of love for our Creator and Redeemer.

 

[Tishri1]

I have a question.... How can anyone claim to be Messianic and not be Torah observant? Is that a conflict with the image of Yeshua who is the epitome of Torah.

Hi Vis,
I think you need to see yourself as an ambassador for Yeshua and allow him to work on the hearts of those around you. Show your light and dont let differences defer you from being that light.

 

[Tishri1]

The point by several MJ members is that the language of the new MJ SOP is misrepresenting the views of many Messianic Gentiles as well as most all Messianic Jews. Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon now takes on an entirely different meaning which is apparently unsettling to not only many Messianic Gentiles, but also most all Messianic Jews.

​

The previous SOP made it clear that Torah Observance was a "must"/mandatory requirement for Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles displaying a "Messianic" faith icon. The new SOP language gives the impression that it is no longer a "must" (mandatory) for everyone displaying the "Messianic" faith icon to "keep Torah, only those that are called to do so." Does CF really understand that the language of the new MJ SOP lends an entirely different interpretation to Messianic Judaism. An interpretation that is seen as disparaging to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles that are Torah Observant? The new SOP language basically means the following. Was this really CFs intent ?

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Messianic Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. Likewise, we don't believe all Messianic Jews must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.​

Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon means that Torah Observant is no longer a "must," but rather up to the discretion of each MJ member. Changing my faith icon from "Christian" to "Messianic" was a mistake. It could easily be perceived as sticking one's finger in the eye of another as if I'm approving (which i'm not) of CFs departure from Torah Observance being integral to Messianic Judaism.

Sorry you feel that way....we didn't change the forum as the rules always lent themselves to this way of thinking.....Torah was never a must, for instance you could never walk up to an MJ and say your not saved unless you follow Torah.

 

[ContraMundum]

Two things.
1. There is nothing new in the New Testament.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." John 13:34

There's one....

"And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood." Lk 22:20

There's two...

"And they were all amazed, so that they questioned among themselves, saying, "What is this? A new teaching with authority! He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey him."" Mark 1:27

There's three...

"In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Heb 8:13

There's four...

"At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining" 1 Jon 2:8

There's five...

Etc.

If there is nothing new in the NT then it should be called the "repeated Testament" and the Yeshua, everything He taught, the Cross, the resurrection, Pentecost etc would all be useless and unnecessary.