Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[AbbaLove]

"While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any [Messianic] Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so." What if we just take this part out? It is stated in another place anyway.

It is not an easy matter to come up with SOP language that is agreeable to all Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles.

Romans 8:1-2 (Complete Jewish Bible)
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua.
2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death.

 

[pat34lee]

Romans 8:1-2 (Complete Jewish Bible)
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua.
2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death.

This might better be served opening a new thread, but the second phrase should be
"law of sin and death". It has nothing to do with Torah, which is light and life.

 

[ContraMundum]

MJ is about observance of Torah, Festivals, and Traditions, yes it always has been and that is what signifies it's special qualities.

Um.....That would be Rabbinic Judiasm.

I always assumed MJ is about Yeshua first, worshiped in the Jewish tradition in unity with the broader Church. At least that's what the mainstream groups teach and have always taught.

 

[Tishri1]

Um.....That would be Rabbinic Judiasm.

I always assumed MJ is about Yeshua first, worshiped in the Jewish tradition in unity with the broader Church. At least that's what the mainstream groups teach and have always taught.

To answer this accusation for the rest of you....of course all Faith Groups and Congregations lift Jesus/Yeshua up first and foremost, that is what we have in common....what is unique about MJ and sets it apart from other groups is its connection to Torah, Festivals, and Tradition.

 

[AbbaLove]

... the second phrase should be
"law of sin and death". It has nothing to do with Torah, which is light and life.

The new covenant is now the new Torah (Law of the Spirit). Therefore, the italicized Torah that is underlined in the following verses of the CJB is referring to the "law of sin and death." However, to conclude that the Torah of Moses is the "law of sin and death" seems to be an underlying cause of many a dispute in this forum. One way i look at this is that hasatan
corrupted the *"just requirement" of the Law/Torah of Moses because of mankind's fallen nature. Thus the only conclusion that makes sense to me is that the Law/Torah of the Spirit (His Indwelling Presence) is a better covenant than the Torah of Moses.

Romans 8:1-4, 7-8 (Complete Jewish Bible)
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua.
2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the “Torah” of sin and death.
3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature,
4 so that the *just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.

7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God’s Torah — indeed, it cannot.
8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God.

Hebrews 8:13 (Complete Jewish Bible)
13 By using the term, “new,” he has made the first covenant “old”; and something being made old, something in the process of aging, is on its way to vanishing altogether.

Until, it vanishes altogether it is reasonable to assume that some of the language of the new SOP is confusing.

"While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any [Messianic] Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep *Torah, only those that are called to do so."

Which *Torah is the new SOP referring to ... the Law/Torah of Moses or the Law/Torah of the Spirit ... or both?

Romans 8:1-2 (NIV)
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

As for me this does not mean, by any means, that i disregard the Torah of Moses. On the contrary it is now possible for those born again with the indwelling presence of the Torah of the Spirit to also follow the "just requirements" of the Torah of Moses.

Shabbat Shalom​

 

[pat34lee]

The new covenant is now the new Torah (Law of the Spirit). Therefore, the italicized Torah that is underlined in the following verses of the CJB is referring to the "law of sin and death." However, to conclude that the Torah of Moses is the "law of sin and death" seems to be an underlying cause of many a dispute in this forum. One way i look at this is that hasatan
corrupted the *"just requirement" of the Law/Torah of Moses because of mankind's fallen nature. Thus the only conclusion that makes sense to me is that the Law/Torah of the Spirit (His Indwelling Presence) is a better covenant than the Torah of Moses.

There can be no better word than the Torah by definition. It is perfect. (Psalm 19:7)

Go back one chapter to Romans 7 and read. The law of sin and death are physical laws
of the flesh. Our bodies are born in sin and are subject to death. There is nothing good
in them, and they fight against the spirit. Our flesh does not want to die. Yet it must, so
that the spirit can live.

 

[visionary]

To answer this accusation for the rest of you....of course all Faith Groups and Congregations lift Jesus/Yeshua up first and foremost, that is what we have in common....what is unique about MJ and sets it apart from other groups is its connection to Torah, Festivals, and Tradition.

...its connections to Torah, Festivals, and some Jewish traditions, for we are neither reform or orthodox or conservative and Yeshua influences which we choose as our own.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I am going to bring this thread to a close for a bit. The SOP could be tweaked but we can address that after seeing how this one does.

Let me clarify a few things.

First, the focus is on Yeshua, the Messiah, who died for our sins and rose again and is seated in heaven. This is a Christian site and like the other congregational forum, the site Statement of Faith is definitely part of this forums SOF.

Second, one of the unique characteristics of this forum is the desire to follow the Torah as given to Moses. It is not for salvation or as proof that one loves God, but is done out of love and calling.

Third, some other unique characteristics of this forum is learning about Jewish traditions and the Festivals.

So I am closing this for awhile, and we will be discussing this with the admins and advisors.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Opening this again in case there are questions about the SOP

 

[BelieveTheWord]

It doesn't look like anything was edited, so we still have the contradictory statements:
In the intro, "This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."

In the we believe, "That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’."

So it seems to be saying that not all believers are called to follow Yeshua. That seems odd.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Are you saying that if one does not keep the Torah of Moses, they are not following Yeshua?
I am just asking so I understand better.

 

[Truthfrees]

IMO, Yeshua taught in agreement with Torah, never against Torah, so for MJs they are one and the same.

Our SOP sould reflect that.

 

[Truthfrees]

It doesn't look like anything was edited, so we still have the contradictory statements:
In the intro, "This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."

In the we believe, "That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’."

So it seems to be saying that not all believers are called to follow Yeshua. That seems odd.

Would the truth be that:

1. MJs believe and practice: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

2. BUT but we allow that not all Jews and Gentiles agree with this, so we don't force anyone to keep the Torah of Moses if they don't understand that this is what Yeshua lived and taught?

So perhaps we could change the 2nd statement to: We DON'T INSIST (FORCE) all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE STATEMENT #1: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

SUGGESTED EDIT
We believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow HIM’ (Matthew 16:24, 1 John 2:6).

But we allow that others may not see this truth, and for this reason do not force Torah on all Jews and Gentiles.

 

[AbbaLove]

There can be no better word than the Torah by definition. It is perfect. (Psalm 19:7)

Psalm 19:8(7)-10(9) (CJB)
8(7) The Torah of Adonai is perfect, restoring the inner person. The instruction of Adonai is sure, making wise the thoughtless.
9(8) The precepts of Adonai are right, rejoicing the heart. The mitzvah of Adonai is pure, enlightening the eyes.
10(9) The fear of Adonai is clean, enduring forever. The rulings of Adonai are true, they are righteous altogether,

IMO, Yeshua taught in agreement with Torah, never against Torah, so for MJs they are one and the same. Our SOP should reflect that.

Shouldn't it be understood that Paul (Romans 8:4) was never against the Torah of Adonai.

Romans 8:4 (CJB)
so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.

Is, "all Jews and Gentiles" (SOP language) referring just to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles or all Jews and Gentiles?

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Are you saying that if one does not keep the Torah of Moses, they are not following Yeshua?
I am just asking so I understand better.

The statement of what we believe is: "That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’." This is implying that following Yeshua involves keeping the Torah just like He did. Therefore to say that only some believers, "not all Jews and Gentiles", are called to keep Torah is the same as saying that only some believers are called to follow Yeshua. So the SOP is not clear whether this MJ sub-forum believes that keeping the Torah is part of Christianity in general, or just a fringe option. I thought the purpose of this whole SOP business was to settle that aspect in particular. I'm not trying to push what I believe, I'm just saying that the wording isn't decisive, so the arguments could just flare up again.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ok.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Would the truth be that:

1. MJs believe and practice: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

2. BUT but we allow that not all Jews and Gentiles agree with this, so we don't force anyone to keep the Torah of Moses if they don't understand that this is what Yeshua lived and taught?

So perhaps we could change the 2nd statement to: We DON'T INSIST (FORCE) all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE STATEMENT #1: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

SUGGESTED EDIT
We believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow HIM’ (Matthew 16:24, 1 John 2:6).

But we allow that others may not see this truth, and for this reason do not force Torah on all Jews and Gentiles.

I don't know. It's not like we can force it anyone even if we wanted. I think it is just part of the "Faith Group" concept that each one has particular beliefs, and that we ought to be respectful towards others who disagree. However within the sub-forum the beliefs should be clear and upheld by the participants. I don't think any apologetic language is needed, and in this case it makes it confusing what it is we believe.

 

[visionary]

I agree... for statement of faith purposes, I like a clear statement of MJ is that

1. MJs believe and practice: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

and drop the second part... or have the second part say something like, So we keep what we understand Yeshua's version of Torah. Thus we are not dictating what that version is and how the halacha each individual member keeps it.

 

[Truthfrees]

Psalm 19:8(7)-10(9) (CJB)
8(7) The Torah of Adonai is perfect, restoring the inner person. The instruction of Adonai is sure, making wise the thoughtless.
9(8) The precepts of Adonai are right, rejoicing the heart. The mitzvah of Adonai is pure, enlightening the eyes.
10(9) The fear of Adonai is clean, enduring forever. The rulings of Adonai are true, they are righteous altogether,


Shouldn't it be understood that Paul (Romans 8:4) was never against the Torah of Adonai.

Romans 8:4 (CJB)
so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.

Is, "all Jews and Gentiles" (SOP language) referring just to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles or all Jews and Gentiles?

Yes, absolutely!

The Apostles for sure can not contradict Yeshua, so if we think the Apostles disagree with Torah given to Moses, when Yeshua agrees with Torah given to Moses, it would have to be our misunderstanding.

 

[Truthfrees]

I agree... for statement of faith purposes, I like a clear statement of MJ is that

1. MJs believe and practice: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

and drop the second part... or have the second part say something like, So we keep what we understand Yeshua's version of Torah. Thus we are not dictating what that version is and how the halacha each individual member keeps it.

Awesome!

How about this:
MJs believe the Torah of Moses is the halacha that Yeshua practiced. Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.