Salvation and eternal destiny trilemma

[AndOne]

Where is Molinism developed in scripture?

 

[Butch5]

Obviously, I mean the controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism, who emphasize sovereignty and free will, respectively.
Molinism is a straightforward inference from the verse: "whom He foreknew, he also predestinated." Calvinism minimizes the foreknowing, (since the predestination is not influenced by any thing which was foreknown), and Arminianism minimizes the predestination (seeing it as just an extension or result of the foreknowing). Molinism gives significance to each and demonstrates the connection between each. Scripture teaches that God has foreknowledge of possibilities, and that he accomplishes his will. Molinism is simply a development of those facts.

I would submit that the typical Calvinist and Arminian understanding of the passage is wrong. I would also submit that the foreknowing of God is simply speaking of past events and not a time before creation as the Calvinist would assert. The passage Rom 8:28-30 is explained by Paul in chapter 9. Paul is writing about Israel.

 

[Berean777]

The Bible teaches that 1 God wants to save everyone, 2 that he can do anything, and 3 that eternal punishment awaits those who persist in wickedness instead of accepting salvation.
There is some tension between these points, which Christians have tried to solve in three ways.
1. Weaken the third; universalism--God will eventually save everyone. The Greek word for eternal is where we get our word 'eon' which is how long it'll take for some of the worst to be saved.
2. Weaken the second; Arminianism--perhaps its not logically possible for God to save everyone, since it depends on wills, and it is by definition impossible to force someone to freely will something.
3. Weaken the first; Calvinism-- God doesn't want to save everyone as much as he wants to demonstrate his justice or otherwise glorify himself.

This is the order of their appeal to me, and also the order of how much they glorify God. Sending people to hell doesn't make God look good any more than smushing an ant that crosses the sidewalk makes a grown man look strong. Universalism does glorify God: the amount of love, patience, and wisdom he would display in saving everyone over the span of ages is wonderful. As a Molinist, I'm not convinced of #2, though it seems to be what kept C S Lewis from being a universalist. It is possible that universalism is too close to making this a 'toy world' where our choices' consequences are limited and thus lack as much significance. A world of greatest significance might bring more glory to God and value to us, but I doubt it; an eon of consequences for our choices seems enough. Anyway I trust God will do what is best.

God doesn't need to be seen to be good by the world to be approved of the world in their eyes.

God has at his disposal two pillars which he can use according to his sovereign will.

They are the pillar of justice and the pillar of grace.

God gives the same choice he gave Adam and Eve at the Garden of Eden to eat from all the trees except from the tree in the middle of the Garden though shalt not eat.

The choice today is the reverse, we are to eat only of the tree of life who is Christ Jesus and refuse to eat of the tree of the world, to be conformed to its ways.

So the choice is there and many choice justice rather than the grace of God and under God's justice all men are condemned because we have fallen short of the law.

So as far as your statement quoted below is concerned, you are implying that salvation is never the question of individual choice and that in order for God to be seen as good in the world's eyes that he saves everyone anyway.

Universalism does glorify God: the amount of love, patience, and wisdom he would display in saving everyone over the span of ages is wonderful.

Your statement implying that all is good and everyone is wonderful thereby falsifies the solution of God that he provided on the cross and thereby removes the free will of choice that every human being needs to make in this life time.

The people of the world need to choose wisely whether they want to be under God's grace and to freely eat from the tree of life Christ Jesus or to ultimately fall under God's justice.

Under God's justice all are condemned to hell.

As far as God is concerned there is no more excuses that the world can lean on. So choose wisely as the saying goes.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

I would submit that the typical Calvinist and Arminian understanding of the passage is wrong. I would also submit that the foreknowing of God is simply speaking of past events and not a time before creation as the Calvinist would assert. The passage Rom 8:28-30 is explained by Paul in chapter 9. Paul is writing about Israel.

Except in Romans 9, Paul never explicitly states that Romans 8:28-30 is about Israel. In fact, he never states that Romans 9 itself is about Israel.

 

[AndOne]

Except in Romans 9, Paul never explicitly states that Romans 8:28-30 is about Israel. In fact, he never states that Romans 9 itself is about Israel.

Brother - what about Romans 10 and 11? But the issue isn't about whether or not Israel is being addressed? I think it is. The issue is - who is Israel? The end of Romans 9 gives a clue in its quotes from Hosea.

 

[Butch5]

Except in Romans 9, Paul never explicitly states that Romans 8:28-30 is about Israel. In fact, he never states that Romans 9 itself is about Israel.

Did you read the beginning of the chapter? If we read the book in context, from the beginning, we find that in chapter 2 verse 17 Paul turns his attention to the Jews. He continues this discourse with the Jewish believes until he reaches chapter 11 verse 13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles.

17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, (Rom. 2:17 KJV)

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: (Rom. 11:13 KJV)

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Did you read the beginning of the chapter?

The issue is - who is Israel?

Both of these points can be knocked down with a single stone:

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." [Romans 9:3-8]​

Christians, as children of the promise, are counted as members of Israel.

 

[Butch5]

Both of these points can be knocked down with a single stone:

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." [Romans 9:3-8]​

Christians, as children of the promise, are counted as members of Israel.

Not if we keep it in context. It's not talking about Gentiles. They are not all Israel who are of Israel. Who was Israel? He was Jacob. They are not all Israel who are of Jacob. In other words they are not all counted as Israel who are the seed of Jacob but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. All the people he is writing about are of Israel, Jacob.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Not if we keep it in context. It's not talking about Gentiles. They are not all Israel who are of Israel. Who was Israel? He was Jacob. They are not all Israel who are of Jacob. In other words they are not all counted as Israel who are the seed of Jacob but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. All the people he is writing about are of Israel, Jacob.

Yes it is. The children of the promise are counted as the seed. We are the children of the promise. There is no distinction between Israel and the church. That's a dispensational pre-mil fantasy.

 

[Berean777]

Not if we keep it in context. It's not talking about Gentiles. They are not all Israel who are of Israel. Who was Israel? He was Jacob. They are not all Israel who are of Jacob. In other words they are not all counted as Israel who are the seed of Jacob but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. All the people he is writing about are of Israel, Jacob.

Isra-EL means Seed of Elohim.

Those Gentiles who are now in Christ were once foreigners to the citizenship of Israel, but now you have come into citizenship through the promised SEED.

Galatians 3:16
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.

Isra-EL is the SEED of promise who is Christ Jesus and all who are in him. Those of the flesh cannot be called Israel of God, because they are not tied to the SEED of promise Christ Jesus.

Now please don't go quoting Old Testament versus because it will not appeal to me one bit.

 

[Butch5]

Yes it is. The children of the promise are counted as the seed. We are the children of the promise. There is no distinction between Israel and the church. That's a dispensational pre-mil fantasy.

Look at the context. Unless you are Jewish you are not the seed of Jacob. You are the adopted seed of Abraham, not the physical seed Jacob.

In context Paul is abundantly clear who he is writing of.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom. 9:1-5 KJV)

He says the promises are the fathers. The fathers are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jacob is Israel. Next he begins to explain the promises.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (Rom. 9:6-13 KJV)

He's writing about Israel.

 

[Butch5]

Isra-EL means Seed of Elohim.

Those Gentiles who are now in Christ were once foreigners to the citizenship of Israel, but now you have come into citizenship through the promised SEED.



Isra-EL is the SEED of promise who is Christ Jesus and all who are in him. Those of the flesh cannot be called Israel of God, because they are not tied to the SEED of promise Christ Jesus.

Now please don't go quoting Old Testament versus because it will not appeal to me one bit.

Just because Gentiles are grafted into the Israel doesn't mean that Paul is talking about Gentiles in Romans 9. The context will decide who is being written about.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Where is Molinism developed in scripture?

It is developed in the study of the scriptures which talk of God’s absolute sovereignty (including predestination of all that happens in His creation); the free will of men to choose as they desire; combined with scriptures which declare that God knows all possibilities just as He know actualities. Top these off with the fact that God always has known all this from eternity past - and you have paradoxes in scripture.

One need look no farther than this forum - and particularly the heated discussions in the soteriology section concerning which position is right - to see these problems encountered in theology.

Some form of Molinism (by that or another name and probably leaning toward the Calvinistic side of things) is what occurs when one accepts all of the things taught in scripture and attempts to reconcile how they all could be true --- over against the tendency of most to simply choose their favorite side of the paradox..

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Look at the context. Unless you are Jewish you are not the seed of Jacob. You are the adopted seed of Abraham, not the physical seed Jacob.

"For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." [Romans 9:3-8]

 

[Berean777]

Just because Gentiles are grafted into the Israel doesn't mean that Paul is talking about Gentiles in Romans 9. The context will decide who is being written about.

Israel is all who are in Christ, the Jews, the Greeks and the Gentiles without exception. There is only one living vine and all who are grafted into him are called true Israel of God.

 

[Butch5]

Israel is all who are in Christ, the Jews, the Greeks and the Gentiles without exception. There is only one living vine and all who are grafted into him are called true Israel of God.

That has no bearing on Paul's argument. He states specifically that he is speaking of physical Jews.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom. 9:3-5 KJV)

He is specifically talking about the Jews, those who are the "physical" descendants of Israel who is Jacob.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

That has no bearing on Paul's argument. He states specifically that he is speaking of physical Jews.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Rom. 9:3-5 KJV)

He is specifically talking about the Jews, those who are the "physical" descendants of Israel who is Jacob.

Hm.

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are His offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: 'About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever he wills, and He hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed He says in Hosea, 'Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’' And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’" [Romans 9:6-26 ESV]

 

[Butch5]

Hm.

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are His offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: 'About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.' And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad - in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls - she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever he wills, and He hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed He says in Hosea, 'Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’' And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’" [Romans 9:6-26 ESV]

Thanks for proving my point. If Paul had been talking about the gentiles in the beginning he wouldn't have had to tell his readers that the Gentiles were also included, in verse 24.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:24 KJV)

Notice the progression, the ones Paul mentions, then in verse 24, "Even us" Paul and his Jewish readers, and not only the Jews, but also the Gentiles.

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

Thanks for proving my point. If Paul had been talking about the gentiles in the beginning he wouldn't have had to tell his readers that the Gentiles were also included, in verse 24.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom. 9:24 KJV)

Notice the progression, the ones Paul mentions, then in verse 24, "Even us" Paul and his Jewish readers, and not only the Jews, but also the Gentiles.

He included the gentiles as "children of the promise" in the very beginning.

 

[Butch5]

He included the gentiles as "children of the promise" in the very beginning.

Ok, don't worry about the Scriptures and the context.