Salvation and eternal destiny trilemma

[Percivale]

John was real clear about how to know that one has eternal life, and it wasn't about one's lifestyle or behavior.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, from the first chapter of 1 John, what was John's theme for the whole epistle?

I John 5 makes it clear that one must believe in Jesus and also not continue a sinful lifestyle: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin." It's not that they lose their salvation by sinning, but that they demonstrate that they aren't truly saved. Anyone who is truly saved has God's spirit working on them to change their life, so they don't continue a sinful lifestyle. Simply believing that Jesus died to save sinners is not saving faith; the demons know that fact too. Saving faith is always accompanied by repentance, because if you trust Jesus, you'll believe and try to do what he says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I John 5 makes it clear that one must believe in Jesus and also not continue a sinful lifestyle: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin." It's not that they lose their salvation by sinning, but that they demonstrate that they aren't truly saved.

Neither is true. John began that idea about being born of God not sinning in 3:9. His point cannot be about not sinning, because of what he had written earlier in his epistle in 1:9 about confession of sin, and the fact that every one sins (1:8,10). It's not even about sinning less.

It is about the fact that by "born of God" John is referring to our new nature, our regenerated spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides. He is saying that the believer CANNOT sin from that nature. It's impossible. The believer can only sin from his sinful human nature, but never the regenerated new nature. That is his point. Which, apparently, very few people seem to understand.

Anyone who is truly saved has God's spirit working on them to change their life, so they don't continue a sinful lifestyle.

Well, not so fast there. Paul gave 2 positive commands regarding the Holy Spirit; be filled with the Spirit in Eph 5:18 and walk by means of the Spirit in Gal 5:16, so the believer will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh, which he lists in v.19+.

Paul also gave 2 negative commands regarding the Holy Spirit; do NOT grieve the Spirit in Eph 4:30 and do NOT quench the Spirit in 1 Thess 5:19. The Greek commands here actually mean "stop grieving/quenching".

So, if the believer obeys the positive commands, your statement is true. But if the believer doesn't heed the 2 negative commands, your statement is not true.

Simply believing that Jesus died to save sinners is not saving faith; the demons know that fact too.

Demons are irrelevant, since Christ never died for any demons. I agree with your first statement. Saving faith requires the believer to believe that Christ died for them personally and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him.

Saving faith is always accompanied by repentance, because if you trust Jesus, you'll believe and try to do what he says.

Please define 'repentance' here. Certainly faith does require a change of mind about a lot of things, but is that how you mean it, or some other way?

 

[Percivale]

Neither is true. John began that idea about being born of God not sinning in 3:9. His point cannot be about not sinning, because of what he had written earlier in his epistle in 1:9 about confession of sin, and the fact that every one sins (1:8,10). It's not even about sinning less.

It is about the fact that by "born of God" John is referring to our new nature, our regenerated spirit, where the Holy Spirit resides. He is saying that the believer CANNOT sin from that nature. It's impossible. The believer can only sin from his sinful human nature, but never the regenerated new nature. That is his point. Which, apparently, very few people seem to understand.


Well, not so fast there. Paul gave 2 positive commands regarding the Holy Spirit; be filled with the Spirit in Eph 5:18 and walk by means of the Spirit in Gal 5:16, so the believer will NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh, which he lists in v.19+.

Paul also gave 2 negative commands regarding the Holy Spirit; do NOT grieve the Spirit in Eph 4:30 and do NOT quench the Spirit in 1 Thess 5:19. The Greek commands here actually mean "stop grieving/quenching".

So, if the believer obeys the positive commands, your statement is true. But if the believer doesn't heed the 2 negative commands, your statement is not true.


Demons are irrelevant, since Christ never died for any demons. I agree with your first statement. Saving faith requires the believer to believe that Christ died for them personally and gives eternal life to those who believe in Him.


Please define 'repentance' here. Certainly faith does require a change of mind about a lot of things, but is that how you mean it, or some other way?

Etymology does not dictate meaning. Repent means more than a change of opinion regarding facts. For that a different Greek word is available, and was used when the islanders changed their mind about whether Paul was a murderer or a god, after surviving snakebite. Repentance in Scripture is connected to a change in conduct; for instance when people responded to John the Baptist's call to repent, it was with, "what should we do?"
It seems you are saying all commands in the Bible, besides "Believe on Jesus Christ" are optional as far as salvation is concerned. That contradicts this passage in I Corinthians 6:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

It really makes no sense why God would not save everyone, from your understanding of salvation. If it takes nothing but believing one proposition to be saved, why should it even take that? Also, it makes it look like the thing we need to be saved from is not sin, but God's odd sense of justice; since the sin can remain unchecked in a person and they be saved, as long as God has someone to punish for it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Etymology does not dictate meaning. Repent means more than a change of opinion regarding facts. For that a different Greek word is available, and was used when the islanders changed their mind about whether Paul was a murderer or a god, after surviving snakebite.

Here's the Greek word from Acts 28:
metaballō
1) to turn around, to turn about
2) to turn one’s self about, or transform one’s self
3) to change one’s opinion

Repentance in Scripture is connected to a change in conduct; for instance when people responded to John the Baptist's call to repent, it was with, "what should we do?"

Here's the Greek word from Acts 2:
metanoeō
1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins

I believe your view is mistaken. In fact, you've gotten it backwards. Metaballo is about a change in direction or conduct. Metanoeo is about changing one's mind.

It seems you are saying all commands in the Bible, besides "Believe on Jesus Christ" are optional as far as salvation is concerned.

Quite a broad brush stroke, eh? By "optional", no other command involves getting saved, or staying saved. However, anything and everything we do has CONSEQUENCES. So no one gets away with anything.

That contradicts this passage in I Corinthians 6:
"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."

In the Greek, there is no article (the) before "unrighteous" in v.9 as there is in v.1 when Paul specifically mentions unbelievers. Also, to "not inherit the kingdom" carries the same meaning as a parallel passage in Eph 5:5 - For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

So, to "not inherit the kingdom" and "has no inheritance in the kingdom" are parallel. iow, there will be no eternal rewards for such people.

This is not about not getting into the kingdom.

It really makes no sense why God would not save everyone, from your understanding of salvation. If it takes nothing but believing one proposition to be saved, why should it even take that?

These are silly questions. The Bible tells us that we must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. That is God's plan for mankind. Ask Him if it doesn't suit or please your view.

Also, it makes it look like the thing we need to be saved from is not sin, but God's odd sense of justice; since the sin can remain unchecked in a person and they be saved, as long as God has someone to punish for it.

There is obvious misunderstanding or a lot of confusion about what Christ actually did on the cross from these statements. He PAID FOR ALL SIN. There are no sins He did not pay for. So sin cannot be the issue for any believer, or even any unbeliever. I've gone round and round with Calvinists on the fact that no one goes to hell for their sin. They go there because they never received God's gift of eternal life, and are therefore not qualified to live with Him in eternity. One must have God's life, which is eternal life, to live with Him in eternity.

Everyone else experiences the "second death" which is the lake of fire beause their names were not in the book of life.

 

[Percivale]

I believe your view is mistaken. In fact, you've gotten it backwards. Metaballo is about a change in direction or conduct. Metanoeo is about changing one's mind.

To convince me of this, you need to give examples where metaballo involves a change in action (it did not in Acts 28, just opinion), and where metanoia involves only a change of opinion or belief regarding fact.

Quite a broad brush stroke, eh? By "optional", no other command involves getting saved, or staying saved. However, anything and everything we do has CONSEQUENCES. So no one gets away with anything.

Everything has natural consequences, yes. I see hell as an extension of those; sin sooner or later creates its own torment. In decoupling salvation from regeneration or sanctification I feel you are imposing your system on the text instead of letting the text build your system.

These are silly questions. The Bible tells us that we must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. That is God's plan for mankind. Ask Him if it doesn't suit or please your view.

We agree that we must believe; our debate is over the nature of that belief. Your position is apparently that belief is merely assent to a piece of information, namely that Christ died to save you. I believe that faith is a trust in Christ himself on all levels. There are lots of verses that mention faith in Christ, are there any that mention faith in his death, or in his atonement specifically? Indeed some evangelistic sermons in Acts skip over His death altogether, going straight to the resurrection.

There is obvious misunderstanding or a lot of confusion about what Christ actually did on the cross from these statements. He PAID FOR ALL SIN. There are no sins He did not pay for. So sin cannot be the issue for any believer, or even any unbeliever. I've gone round and round with Calvinists on the fact that no one goes to hell for their sin. They go there because they never received God's gift of eternal life, and are therefore not qualified to live with Him in eternity. One must have God's life, which is eternal life, to live with Him in eternity.

Everyone else experiences the "second death" which is the lake of fire because their names were not in the book of life.

You're saying that everyone lost is punished not for sin, but for not believing one fact, which a majority of them never had a chance to learn anyway. I think that's unjust, as well as unbiblical, since there are many passages that say things like God will "render to each one according to their deeds."

 

[FreeGrace2]

To convince me of this, you need to give examples where metaballo involves a change in action (it did not in Acts 28, just opinion), and where metanoia involves only a change of opinion or belief regarding fact.

I proved it from a Greek lexicon, which tells us what words mean.

We agree that we must believe; our debate is over the nature of that belief. Your position is apparently that belief is merely assent to a piece of information, namely that Christ died to save you.

I've never said that. In fact, I've defined what "saving faith" means. It REQUIRES 2 components; the object of faith, and the goal of that faith.

The object of saving faith MUST BE the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the cross for all sins.

The goal of faith MUST BE the gift of eternal life.

Those who believe both of these have eternal life. Those who do not believe these two things do not have eternal life.

I believe that faith is a trust in Christ himself on all levels.

?? How many levels? Please list them.

There are lots of verses that mention faith in Christ, are there any that mention faith in his death, or in his atonement specifically?

Yes, 1 Cor 15:3.

You're saying that everyone lost is punished not for sin, but for not believing one fact, which a majority of them never had a chance to learn anyway.

Here's the whole picture. No one has an excuse, because God has revealed Himself to everyone (Rom 1:19,20). Some respond to that and will be presented with the truth of Jesus Christ, and many do not respond to that revelation. Cornelius is an example of one who did respond (Acts 10).

I think that's unjust, as well as unbiblical, since there are many passages that say things like God will "render to each one according to their deeds."

That verse is specifically directed to believers and the context is eternal reward for faithful obedience.

If my view presents an "unjust" system, then please address how it is unjust and use Scripture to refute my view.

 

[Percivale]

I proved it from a Greek lexicon, which tells us what words mean.

Lexicons are created by examining how words are used. You gave multiple definitions, and for each word one fit your views and one mine. To break the tie it is necessary to see which definition NT authors usually used.

I've never said that. In fact, I've defined what "saving faith" means. It REQUIRES 2 components; the object of faith, and the goal of that faith.

The object of saving faith MUST BE the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who died on the cross for all sins.

The goal of faith MUST BE the gift of eternal life.

Those who believe both of these have eternal life. Those who do not believe these two things do not have eternal life.

I'd say those two elements were included in my statement: "Christ died to save you".

?? How many levels? Please list them.

All. The two most relevant here are relying on him for eternal security, and trusting him enough to follow his teachings. If you tell someone, "Don't buy that car, it's a lemon," and he buys it, does he trust you? No. Likewise, to trust Christ to pay for your sin but not trust him enough to follow him is an incomplete faith, or a dead faith, as James says: "Faith without works is dead."

That verse is specifically directed to believers and the context is eternal reward for faithful obedience.

No, Romans 2:6 is definitely referring to both believers and non-believers. Read the context.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lexicons are created by examining how words are used. You gave multiple definitions, and for each word one fit your views and one mine. To break the tie it is necessary to see which definition NT authors usually used.

I guess we could just go and ask them, huh.

most relevant here are relying on him for eternal security, and trusting him enough to follow his teachings. If you tell someone, "Don't buy that car, it's a lemon," and he buys it, does he trust you? No. Likewise, to trust Christ to pay for your sin but not trust him enough to follow him is an incomplete faith, or a dead faith, as James says: "Faith without works is dead."

To "follow Him" involves lifestyle or behavior. Which we call "deeds". And deeds don't save. Believing in Christ is the condition for salvation.

You conflated 2 separate things. The first is for salvation, and the second is for spiritual growth, which we call maturity, or sanctification.

No, Romans 2:6 is definitely referring to both believers and non-believers. Read the context.

I realize that the verse is directed to moralists who think they are saved by their lifestyle or works, and Paul makes the statement that if one "persists in doing good" will receive eternal life. The problem is that though true, no human being can do that. Even 1 sin means we are not persisting in doing good. Which is Paul's point. He later on points out that all are sinners (3:9, 23) and fall short of God's glory (3:23).
Which is why we need to believe in Christ.

iow, eternal life cannot be earned or received based on one's lifestyle or behavior because we are all sinners.