Salvation and eternal destiny trilemma

[EmSw]

Sorry, but being sorry for sin has NEVER been a part of getting saved.

How do you explain this then?

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The definition of sorry is feeling sorrow or regret. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sorry

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do you explain this then?

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

The definition of sorry is feeling sorrow or regret. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sorry

<sigh> I can only hope that most believers understand that the word 'save' and 'salvation' do not always refer to eternal spiritual salvation from hell or lake of fire. In fact, in over half of the uses in both the OT and NT, the meaning is being rescued or delivered from temporal danger, etc.

So, in context, 2 Cor 7:10 refers back to 1 Cor 5 and the incestuous man who Paul turned over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh", which is the same principle as found in 1 Jn 5:16 and called 'the sin unto death'. This is ultimate divine discipline, whereby God takes the believer home earlier than He would have due to persistent sin and rebellion. Paul noted this in 1 Cor 11:30 as consequences of abusing the Lord's table, and the example in Acts 5 of Ananias and his wife who died for lying against the Holy Spirit.

But, to focus on context for 2 Cor 7:10, Paul was noting that the incestuous man apparently had repented. Such repentance results in deliverance or rescue from the "destruction of the flesh" by Satan. Who can imagine what Satan might do when given such an opportunity? Well, Job, for one. Not that Job needed divine discipline. Far from it. But the reality is clear: when Satan is allowed to get to a believer, it ain't purty.

So, 2 Cor 7:10 isn't about eternal salvation as a result of repentance at all.

 

[Percivale]

That repentance is necessary to salvation is on of the most clear teachings of scripture. For instance, Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." Or II Peter 3:9, which makes it clear that people either perish or come to repentance. Just look up repent in the concordance to find many more verses that indicate its importance.

The rich man in Hades did not show signs of repentance. He still viewed Lazarus as an inferior to be ordered around and serve his family. Whether he was going to be tormented eternally or not is not mentioned in the story, though it does suggest that one cannot get out immediately. Do people think like, "I don't mind putting my hand in the fire as long as I don't have to leave it there forever"? No, suffering is something to avoid no matter how long or short it is, so there was plenty of reason the rich man wanted to warn his brothers even if the suffering was not eternal.

 

[EmSw]

<sigh> I can only hope that most believers understand that the word 'save' and 'salvation' do not always refer to eternal spiritual salvation from hell or lake of fire. In fact, in over half of the uses in both the OT and NT, the meaning is being rescued or delivered from temporal danger, etc.

So, can I pick what salvation means, as you do?

So, in context, 2 Cor 7:10 refers back to 1 Cor 5 and the incestuous man who Paul turned over to Satan for the "destruction of the flesh", which is the same principle as found in 1 Jn 5:16 and called 'the sin unto death'. This is ultimate divine discipline, whereby God takes the believer home earlier than He would have due to persistent sin and rebellion. Paul noted this in 1 Cor 11:30 as consequences of abusing the Lord's table, and the example in Acts 5 of Ananias and his wife who died for lying against the Holy Spirit.

Now you are playing 'Stretch Armstrong' with me. Nothing is said of the incestuous man in 2 Corinthians. But, as it makes your argument look valid, I do not accept your ideas as referring to this this man.

Concerning liars, where do all liars ultimately end up? Is Heaven full of liars?

But, to focus on context for 2 Cor 7:10, Paul was noting that the incestuous man apparently had repented. Such repentance results in deliverance or rescue from the "destruction of the flesh" by Satan. Who can imagine what Satan might do when given such an opportunity? Well, Job, for one. Not that Job needed divine discipline. Far from it. But the reality is clear: when Satan is allowed to get to a believer, it ain't purty.

So, 2 Cor 7:10 isn't about eternal salvation as a result of repentance at all.

Yes it is, and I will not accept your view. Paul said NOTHING about the incestuous man, and you can't prove it.

 

[EmSw]

That repentance is necessary to salvation is on of the most clear teachings of scripture. For instance, Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." Or II Peter 3:9, which makes it clear that people either perish or come to repentance. Just look up repent in the concordance to find many more verses that indicate its importance.

The rich man in Hades did not show signs of repentance. He still viewed Lazarus as an inferior to be ordered around and serve his family. Whether he was going to be tormented eternally or not is not mentioned in the story, though it does suggest that one cannot get out immediately. Do people think like, "I don't mind putting my hand in the fire as long as I don't have to leave it there forever"? No, suffering is something to avoid no matter how long or short it is, so there was plenty of reason the rich man wanted to warn his brothers even if the suffering was not eternal.

Without repentance, there is no salvation.

 

[Job8]

Without repentance, there is no salvation.

Who would question that since it is one of the clearest teachings of the Bible?

 

[Job8]

I think that part of the problem is that most men tend to equate what seems good to them with what must seem good to God.

This is such an apt description of Calvinism that it is positively brilliant.

 

[Job8]

I agreed with much of what the free willies espoused also. But I had trouble with their seeming to almost leave out the sovereignty of God.

Well Marvin, the truth of the matter is that the Gospel DOES NOT stress the sovereignty of God but it does focus on THE GRACE OF GOD. So why does that trouble you? You are not satisfied with the fact that it is the grace of God which brings salvation to all men, even though that is the point that Scripture stresses? That sounds almost like Jonah who went into a snit because all of Nineveh was saved.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Tit 2:11,12)

The sovereignty of God is a fundamental Bible doctrine, but the Gospel is all about THE GRACE OF GOD. And one does not need terms such as "Molinism" or anything else to describe this. We have a plain statement of Scripture before us that the grace of God brings salvation to ALL MEN. We also have a plain statement of Scripture which say that God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent. But since we know all men will not repent, we also know that all will not be saved (contrary to Universalists). These things are so simple and basic, they do not need complicated theological dissertations (check "Molinism" on Wikipedia).

 

[Marvin Knox]

Well Marvin, the truth of the matter is that the Gospel DOES NOT stress the sovereignty of God but it does focus on THE GRACE OF GOD. So why does that trouble you? You are not satisfied with the fact that it is the grace of God which brings salvation to all men, even though that is the point that Scripture stresses? That sounds almost like Jonah who went into a snit because all of Nineveh was saved.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Tit 2:11,12)

I didn't say that the gospel did stress the sovereignty of God anywhere near as much as it stresses the grace of God.

Where did you get the notion that I said or believed such a thing?

The sovereignty of God is a fundamental Bible doctrine, but the Gospel is all about THE GRACE OF GOD.

I agree.

Who said otherwise?

.....one does not need terms such as "Molinism" or anything else to describe this. We have a plain statement of Scripture before us that the grace of God brings salvation to ALL MEN. We also have a plain statement of Scripture which say that God commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent. But since we know all men will not repent, we also know that all will not be saved (contrary to Universalists). These things are so simple and basic, they do not need complicated theological dissertations (check "Molinism" on Wikipedia).

I agree . The gospel is simple and basic.

We don't need Molinism to describe the gospel.

Who said that we did?

The discussion concerning Molinism stemmed from a question by Percival about what Calvinists thought of Molinism in general.

When you go back 4 pages and bring a portion of a statement into the discussion now - out of the context in which it was given - you can easily misrepresent it.

That is exactly what you have done.

Molinism concerns a way to look at the fact that predestination and free will are totally compatible in the scriptures.

It has nothing to do with the gospel of grace.

I believe in the simple gospel of grace for salvation. I do not believe in any kind of human merit other than that grace in order to attain it. I believe that it is for all men everywhere without exception. I do not believe in limited atonement as often taught by Calvinists.

If there is any doubt about what I believe - all you need do is ask me and I'll tell you. There is no need to get it wrong by taking statements out of context or making unwarranted assumptions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That repentance is necessary to salvation is on of the most clear teachings of scripture. For instance, Acts 2:38 "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." Or II Peter 3:9, which makes it clear that people either perish or come to repentance. Just look up repent in the concordance to find many more verses that indicate its importance.

The Greek word for 'repentance' is literally "change of mind". In order to receive eternal life, one must change their mind about several things: that they are sinners headed for hell, Jesus Christ died for their sins on the cross and gives the free gift of eternal life to those who trust in Him for salvation.

The rich man in Hades did not show signs of repentance.

Once a person transfers to eternity, repentance is no longer an issue.

He still viewed Lazarus as an inferior to be ordered around and serve his family.

I don't think so. He was most concerned with the lost state of his brothers and wanted Abraham to send Lazarus to warn them so they would avoid ending up where he was. This demonstrates that those in hell are aware of why they are there.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So, can I pick what salvation means, as you do?

First, I don't, as being claimed here. Second, context indicates how the word is being used. Takes a bit of discernment.

Now you are playing 'Stretch Armstrong' with me. Nothing is said of the incestuous man in 2 Corinthians.

Who else would Paul be referring to in 2 Cor? 2 Cor was written several months later than 1 Cor, so the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5 is obviously who Paul was referring to.

But, as it makes your argument look valid, I do not accept your ideas as referring to this this man.

We're all free to accept whatever one wants to accept. My view is logical, reasonable and rational. Who do you think Paul was referring to?

Concerning liars, where do all liars ultimately end up? Is Heaven full of liars?

Kind of a strange question. Seems your view is that all liars end up in hell. Is heaven or hell decided upon whether one is a liar or not? And if so, how many lies does it take to go to hell? Or how few lies can a person say and still go to heaven? How about we just stay with what Scripture says about how one enters into heaven? Through faith in Christ. Do Christians lie? Of course they do.

Yes it is, and I will not accept your view. Paul said NOTHING about the incestuous man, and you can't prove it.

So who was he referring to then? Can it be proved that Paul was referring specifically to anyone else?

 

[Percivale]

First, I don't, as being claimed here. Second, context indicates how the word is being used. Takes a bit of discernment.


Who else would Paul be referring to in 2 Cor? 2 Cor was written several months later than 1 Cor, so the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5 is obviously who Paul was referring to.


We're all free to accept whatever one wants to accept. My view is logical, reasonable and rational. Who do you think Paul was referring to?


Kind of a strange question. Seems your view is that all liars end up in hell. Is heaven or hell decided upon whether one is a liar or not? And if so, how many lies does it take to go to hell? Or how few lies can a person say and still go to heaven? How about we just stay with what Scripture says about how one enters into heaven? Through faith in Christ. Do Christians lie? Of course they do.


So who was he referring to then? Can it be proved that Paul was referring specifically to anyone else?

A couple years ago, a co-worker told me, while getting drunk, something like this: "Yeah I'm a sinner, and I like it. Jesus died for me so I can keep sinning without going to hell for it!" Does that sound like a saved person to you? Your theology seems to say yes, which is clearly against what Paul has to say.
Repentance in the Bible clearly means being sorry for one's sins, recognizing that they displease God, and determining to change. Repentance and faith are the two things required for salvation, and are what Paul taught, as he said in Acts 20:21 "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus."

Where Revelation says all liars go to hell, it means all who continue as liars without repenting. I Corinthians gives the same message " ...and such were some of you, but you were washed..."

 

[FreeGrace2]

A couple years ago, a co-worker told me, while getting drunk, something like this: "Yeah I'm a sinner, and I like it. Jesus died for me so I can keep sinning without going to hell for it!" Does that sound like a saved person to you? Your theology seems to say yes, which is clearly against what Paul has to say.

Whether he is saved or not is based on more than knowing that Christ died for them. One must be trusting in Christ for eternal life. That wasn't mentioned in your example. But if he also believed that, then it is clear that he had no discipling, no training, and no spiritual growth. In fact, such a person will at some point experience "the hands of the living God" (Heb 10:31).

Repentance in the Bible clearly means being sorry for one's sins, recognizing that they displease God, and determining to change.

No, it doesn't. Here is what it means:
metanoeō
1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent
2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins

It never means to feel sorry. There is a different Greek word for regret.

Repentance and faith are the two things required for salvation, and are what Paul taught, as he said in Acts 20:21 "I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus."

To have faith in the Lord Jesus requires a change of mind, most certainly.

Where Revelation says all liars go to hell, it means all who continue as liars without repenting. I Corinthians gives the same message " ...and such were some of you, but you were washed..."

This contradicts the clear assurance of eternal security found in the Bible.

 

[EmSw]

First, I don't, as being claimed here. Second, context indicates how the word is being used. Takes a bit of discernment.

I believe you choose whether it's eternal or temporal salvation; I've seen too many times.

Who else would Paul be referring to in 2 Cor? 2 Cor was written several months later than 1 Cor, so the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5 is obviously who Paul was referring to.

It's not obvious to me. What's obvious to me is it's referring to eternal salvation.

We're all free to accept whatever one wants to accept. My view is logical, reasonable and rational. Who do you think Paul was referring to?

If it doesn't say, I choose not to speculate.

Kind of a strange question. Seems your view is that all liars end up in hell. Is heaven or hell decided upon whether one is a liar or not? And if so, how many lies does it take to go to hell? Or how few lies can a person say and still go to heaven? How about we just stay with what Scripture says about how one enters into heaven? Through faith in Christ. Do Christians lie? Of course they do.

Let's look at Revelation 21:8 and see what it says.

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

What part of ALL LIARS do you not understand? Who is the father of lies? Who follows their father and lies?

Are you telling me a person who has believed in Christ and yet continually lies will be exempt from this verse? What about the sexually immoral? Can they continue in this sin and believe they can escape the lake which burns with fire?

So who was he referring to then? Can it be proved that Paul was referring specifically to anyone else?

No need to find the person to whom Paul was referring; the message is to all who read it. Repentance from Godly sorrow leads to salvation. Besides, if a person has no sorrow from their sinning, they will never remove it from their heart. They will continue to repeat their sins, which includes lying. And we both know what Revelation 21:8 says about that.

 

[EmSw]

This contradicts the clear assurance of eternal security found in the Bible.

Well,well, well, you have found the verse which contradicts your belief of OSAS. Now, which do you choose - your belief or the Bible?

 

[Percivale]

I John is written "that you may know that you have eternal life." What criteria does it give by which to know that? I don't find things like whether you sincerely prayed the sinners' prayer, but rather things like whether you keep Christ's command to love one another, and the statement that whoever practices sin is not born of God. If you examine your life and see that it is characterized by repentance from sin and faith in Christ, you can thank God for his work in you and be assured that your are saved. If you are living in sin, even if you sincerely believe that Jesus died for you, "even the demons believe, and tremble," and you are in danger of Jesus saying, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you who practice iniquity." Faith in Christ involves more that intellectual assent, but the kind of trust that hears what He says and does it. You don't really trust someone if you don't follow their advice, and Jesus said, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"This contradicts the clear assurance of eternal security found in the Bible."

Well,well, well, you have found the verse which contradicts your belief of OSAS.

No, you've again totally misunderstood what I said. By "this", I was referring to your misunderstanding of Rev 21:8. Not the verse itself, but your view of it.

Now, which do you choose - your belief or the Bible?

My belief IS the Bible, because the Bible does teach eternal security.

Eph 1:14 - the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Please answer: What is the promised Holy Spirit a deposit FOR?

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Please answer: What are believers sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR?

Please answer: where would one find the suggestion that salvation can be lost from either of these 2 verses?

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Please answer: The Holy Spirit was put into our hearts as a deposit to do WHAT?

Please explain what "guarantee" means when applied to God's promise.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I John is written "that you may know that you have eternal life." What criteria does it give by which to know that? I don't find things like whether you sincerely prayed the sinners' prayer, but rather things like whether you keep Christ's command to love one another, and the statement that whoever practices sin is not born of God.

John was real clear about how to know that one has eternal life, and it wasn't about one's lifestyle or behavior.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now, from the first chapter of 1 John, what was John's theme for the whole epistle?

 

[EmSw]

I said this:
"This contradicts the clear assurance of eternal security found in the Bible."

No, you've again totally misunderstood what I said. By "this", I was referring to your misunderstanding of Rev 21:8. Not the verse itself, but your view of it.

Let's see, you say my view of Revelation 2:8 contradicts assurance of eternal security. I asked you before, but you didn't answer - what part of 'ALL liars' do you not understand? Do you think 'some' liars are exempt from this? Do you think believers who keep lying can hide their head in the sand and hope this doesn't pertain to them?

My belief IS the Bible, because the Bible does teach eternal security.

Eph 1:14 - the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Please answer: What is the promised Holy Spirit a deposit FOR?

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Please answer: What are believers sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR?

Please answer: where would one find the suggestion that salvation can be lost from either of these 2 verses?

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Please answer: The Holy Spirit was put into our hearts as a deposit to do WHAT?

Please explain what "guarantee" means when applied to God's promise.

The answer to all your questions is, they apply to those who walk in light, those who overcome and rid themselves of sin, those who keep the commandments of Jesus. Those who continue to walk in darkness and love their evils are not cleansed. James calls these people double-minded.

Listen carefully to James:

James 4
1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Do you not see what James is saying? Do you think an enemy of God will enter heaven? Can an enemy of God be saved? If you think so, you have your eyes on a different gospel than Jesus preached.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's see, you say my view of Revelation 2:8 contradicts assurance of eternal security. I asked you before, but you didn't answer - what part of 'ALL liars' do you not understand?

I understand all parts of those 2 words. What part of "unbelievers" do you not understand? That's the key to that verse.

[QUOTE Do you think 'some' liars are exempt from this? Do you think believers who keep lying can hide their head in the sand and hope this doesn't pertain to them?[/QUOTE]
Yep. The saved ones. Because Scripture PLAINLY teaches eternal security, and Christ died for ALL sins. Since there seems to be strong disagreement about that, what verse tells us that Christ didn't die for any lies? I'm sure not aware of any such verses.

The answer to all your questions is, they apply to those who walk in light, those who overcome and rid themselves of sin, those who keep the commandments of Jesus.

Well, that is most certainly an interesting and creative answer. However, it is just as wrong. There is NO HINT of any of these "conditions" in any of the verses I provided regarding the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

Those who continue to walk in darkness and love their evils are not cleansed.

Please provide clear verses that teach this.

James calls these people double-minded.

Yes, confused, but James did NOT say that they weren't saved, or had lost their salvation.

Listen carefully to James:

James 4
1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
9 Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.

Do you not see what James is saying? Do you think an enemy of God will enter heaven? Can an enemy of God be saved? If you think so, you have your eyes on a different gospel than Jesus preached.

In spite of repeatedly showing from Scripture that it teaches ETERNAL SECURITY, these questions continue to come up. The verses have been shown. There is no reason to accept the view of loss of salvation.