This became a very long post but there was no other option as you had asked a number of questions which required reasonably indepth replies.
And if someone shows none of these signs, is he/she still a Christian?
Before the Lord, anyone, be they a Pentecostal, charismatic or cessationist, if we have repented of our sin and confessed Jesus as Lord, where we subsequently receive the Holy Spirit then we each have equal standing before the Lord.
To reiterate, these “things” are;
1. Things that were prophesied of:
Mark 16:17-18
- Cast out demons
- Speak in tongues
- Pick up serpents and not die
- Lay hands on the sick where they will recover (There is also a specific Office of healings which suggests that most of us will not be greatly used in this area. Also see James 5:14)
Acts 2:17-21
Note: All Believers (both charismatic and non-charismatic) have had the Spirit poured out upon them and many charismatics and non-charismatics have had dreams. Though I doubt if all that many non-charismatics have prophesied or been open to having visions, but this does not say that it is impossible.
- Pour forth of my Spirit on all mankind (both men and women)
- Your sons and daughters shall prophesy
- Your young men shall see visions
- Your old men shall dream dreams
1. Things that were established for the Church up until the return of the Lord
1 Cor 12:7-11 (9 Manifestations of the Spirit)
Note: Both charismatics and non-charismatics can allow the Spirit to work through them within
wisdom, knowledge and
faith; these three operations of the Spirit are not the sole domain of the Pentecostal/charismatic. Many non-charismatics have obviously seen positive results when they’ve prayed for those who are sick, though they would be most likely discouraged from seeking or being recognised as holding a healing ministry by their peers.
- Wisdom
- Knowledge
- Faith
- Healings
- Powers (aka, miracles)
- Prophecy
- Discernment of spirits
- Tongues
- Interpretation
1 Cor 12:28 (8 Congregational Offices that were established by the Father)
Note: We ALL fit into at least one of these Offices, irrespective if we are charismatic nor non-charismatic or if the denomination/congregation that we are a part of recognise these Offices or not. Most denominations would recognise the Office of the teacher and they would be more than accommodative with those who are within the Office of helps (i.e., pastoral ministry etc.) and administrations (i.e., areas of leadership and direction).
- Apostle (i.e., contemporary church planters)
- Prophet
- Teacher
- Powers
- Healings
- Administrations
- Helps
- Tongues (incl. interpretation)
It is often said that the Father “gives” these 8 Offices to various individuals within each local congregation. This is also a common misconception amongst Pentecostals and charismatics as well. What we are told in (NASB) 1Cor 12:24 “But God has so
composed the body… and in verse 28 we are told “And God has
appointed (not given) in the church…”
So Paul is not saying that “God gives these things” but that he has chosen to organise the
ministry aspect (not leadership) of each local congregation in a specific way. The four Offices that I have marked in bold are in my view not activities/Offices that are operated/initiated/manifested by the Holy Spirit as they reflect more our temperament, character and personality. Even though it’s rare to see where any scholarly material makes this division as markedly as I have; even so, many will still make comment that these four roles in particular that they ‘seem’ to have a natural component within them.
These 8 Offices are also a distinct/separate set of operations to those of the
9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Cor 12:7-11) where five have a direct relationship to the 8 Offices;
1. tongues + interpretation - Tongues
2. prophecy - Prophet
3. healings - Healing
4. powers - Powers
My understanding is that the Holy Spirit gives these gifts as He wills...not as the recipient wishes.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
You’re absolutely right. Just to be sure I’ll restate what verse 11 is referring to, where my position is that there are only nine Manifestations of the Spirit (aka, spiritual gifts) and no more. As a qualification, the Offices of the
apostle, teacher, administration and
helps (12:28) are not operations of the Spirit (though we hope each person is guided by the Spirit) so they fall outside of the list of 9 MotS.
- Wisdom
- Knowledge
- Faith
- Healings
- Powers (aka, miracles)
- Prophecy
- Discernment of spirits
- Tongues
- Interpretation
Now the prudent Pentecostal or charismatic will quickly acknowledge that the individual will not outwork the full range of 9 Spiritual manifestations. But this leaves us with the prickly question as to why do those within the Pentecostal and charismatic movements (PCM) make the claim that all Believers are able to speak in tongues and that when a person is Born Again, where we receive the Holy Spirit, that they should (or at least ideally) speak in tongues at this point of time?
We should appreciate that tongues (or praying in the Spirit) is by its very nature prayer; where this prayer is always directed by the Spirit to the Father; so this prayer language can also become one of praise. With reference to Acts 2 we see Peter making reference to the “Last Days” which commenced on the Day of Pentecost.
You will of course come across the populist PCM opinion that
tongues + interpretation = prophecy which can be dismissed outright as this never occurs. The formula has been rejected outright by PCM and Evangelical scholars alike such as with the AoG scholar Gordon Fee (First Corinthians, pg 598) and the Anglican scholar Thiselton along with many others.
Of all the 9 Spiritual manifestations, our ability to pray/praise in the Spirit (tongues) sets it apart from the other outworkings of the Spirit. Even though no one would decry having more
wisdom, knowledge and faith these three activities of the Spirit are essentially intended to serve others. The same goes for healings and prophecy but tongues stands out as being the only ability that the Spirit gives us to worship God in Spirit. The Scriptures also tell us that the Spirit intercedes for us in tongues in Rom 8:26 and Paul goes on to encourage us in Eph 6:18 to “pray at all times in the Spirit”. In Jude 20 we are to build ourselves up on our most holy faith by praying in the Spirit; this of course has a direct connection with 1Cor 14:4 where Paul tells us that praying in tongues edifies the one who prays.
The classic-Pentecostal position that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is subsequent to our initial salvation, where we are supposedly first ‘sealed’ with the Holy Spirit before we are subsequently Baptised in the Holy Spirit, is based on what is called “Lukan theology”. In Acts (Luke) we see the outpouring of the Holy Spirit being evidenced by the 120 speaking words of praise (tongues) to the Father. Peter also justified sharing the Gospel with the Romans where they were subsequently Baptised in the Holy Spirit by their speaking in tongues. Luke in Acts 19:6 records that the 12 Ephesian disciples received the Holy Spirit by their evidence of speaking in tongues. In Acts 8:18 Simon saw something powerful occur when people were filled with the Holy Spirit and even though we are not told what he witnessed, we can easily presume that he saw these new Saints both praising God in tongues and probably prophesying.
Unlike Luke whose historical record of Acts
seems to equate tongues with the reception of the Spirit at conversion (thus, Lukan theology), Paul does not do this where he equates the BHS with our initial salvation.
To summarise, as we are told to regularly pray in the Spirit (tongues) throughout the Scriptures, why should this be limited to only some and not the others?
And if someone has had a vision or dreamed a dream, but hasn't shown any of the other signs, what would you make of that?
I’m not sure what you mean here but even a Born Again cessationist can receive dreams from the Father.
Exactly so. That is what I believe also.
And, to take it a step further...I do not believe that God gave the gift of tongues so that silly women could put on a show of their "holiness" by babbling gibberish in church, either.
Even though people can both misuse and even abuse their ability to either pray or praise God in the Spirit, this does not discount their ability but merely that they may be lacking an appropriate amount of common sense. The same goes for those who hold the Office of the Teacher, it would be rare for even a responsible teacher to get everything right and of course this does not mean that they are fakes.
He gave it to the early church to be used to spread the gospel to people who might not speak in the same language that they did.
As I’ve mentioned on a few occasions on this thread, we have no evidence where tongues has ever been used to share the Gospel to anyone. People often point to the Day of Pentecost but all the 120 (or at least most of them) were doing was to “speak of the mighty deeds of God” (Acts 2:11). There words contained no evangelistic message where even Peter had to “save the day” by providing an Evangelistic message in tongues.
If tongues could have been used this way, then I suspect that this incredible ability would have been enough to grab the attention of the entire Empire where it would have quickly seen all repenting.
And gifts of "Holy laughter"? Or "drunk in the spirit"? The Holy Spirit did not give anyone these gifts. If, as some insist, they are "real", then they must come from some other source.
And that worries me.
I suppose that some could refer to this unusual emotional occurrence as being a “spiritual-gift” but this would be rare. In my opinion these emotional outbursts are simply that, human emotions getting a bit beyond the norm. Of course I have seen people behaving foolishly and there are reason for this but it is beyond this post.
