Do you believe and follow Jesus' words?

[ananda]

Your "ill will" has been obvious all along. I would have put you on ignore a few days ago if I'd known how. But just to let you know, when you attack Christians as you do with silly intentional void arguments simply to deride and mock the scriptures, I suggest you not then say it is you who are being attacked. You can count on me not falling further for your false claims of you "exploring to regain faith" through pretending to know scriptures and argue mindless gnat-swallowing diversions intended to exploit a Christian's acts, or lack of them. That is only what an enemy does. I will not repond to your non-sense again I promise

When did I attack Christians?

 

[Tellastory]

My purpose is this: I am exploring to see if I can acquire convincing answers to address my previously unanswered questions which fueled my departure from orthodox Christianity ... in an attempt to explore the possibility of regaining that faith.

Well, I would not be one to have you return to the fold of orthodox Christianity, but the Biblical KJV one.

I am not applying Jer 17:9 to myself, I am merely proposing a counter to the poster's suggestion that the heart is the source for information from the Spirit, supposing that she believes Jer 17:9 is canonical and applicable.

To believe it is a counter is to use it as a reproof, and thereby the judge not lest ye be judged standard, in regards to correction, your offer of reproof as valid towards the poster's position & belief has to apply to your unique beliefs & position as well if seeking secret knowledge as a Gnostic christian.

I am not convinced that Lk 6:30 is about giving to the poor, but to those who ask from you.

Again, I don't see the connection as to how Lk 6:30's "every man" can be limited to "some men" - in your interpretation, "enemies" or "bullying police officers".

Well, I would hardly be the one to convince you. I leave that up to Him.

Every man in context is that every man that is your enemy, but a specific kind of enemy. The Jews were occupied by Rome and so the Romans were the primary enemy of the day.

The context starts off with love your enemies in verse 27 and Jesus went into details as to how by giving examples of what this kind of enemy would be doing. Then He began to explain "why" in verse 34 and then reinterated the topical command to love our enemies again in verse 35 in following the why in verse 34. So it is in that regard, one should apply the giving part as to those that are your enemy that is in authority. I mean, really. Who drops everything and follow at the behest of another unless the enemy was in authority? All the description of this enemy is what a Roman soldier was doing in that day as historically known, but we are to apply that to those enemies in authority today.

I am not sure how Lk 6:30 can be applied, which is why I asked the question.

And what does your Gnostic christian teaching/practises tell you how it applies?

In any discussion, there should be a mutual exhange of information, otherwise, it is easy to take potshots at another poster's position without really giving one of your own.

Eventually, the impasse will come, exposing it is a one sided conversation. One does not have to agree with the other poster's position, but one should be able to understand their point of view in any given discussion. As it is, I cannot clarify my position any further than that if you cannot see it.

 

[ananda]

... we are to apply that to those enemies in authority today

OK, thank you for your patience in explaining that to me. I can see how it might apply to enemies ... but would an enemy ask for something?

And what does your Gnostic christian teaching/practises tell you how it applies?

Well, I ask the question because I am not sure. I am Gnostic in the sense that things but be tested and understood for oneself, and then to follow in faithfulness - not merely on blind faith. I do not know if this was authentically spoken by Jesus, and if so, how it would practically apply today ... or, if this was redacted into the manuscripts by malicious detractors, I do not know either.

 

[Catherineanne]

Thanks for your response. If I understand you correctly, you are stating that that the words of Christ are only for the disciples who were physically with him at that time? And that the Spirit modifies the words of Christ for disciples today?

The words are for anyone the Holy Spirit touches; not just the disciples but saints throughout history as well. Very many have decided to forego wordly wealth for the sake of the Gospel. But whether we are that kind of saint or not depends on the prompting of the Holy Spirit, combined with our own willingness to listen.

 

[Catherineanne]

How did you come to conclude that Lk 6:30's "give to every man" can be reinterpreted to "give to every poor man"?

I did not say every poor man. I said everyone who asks.

Rich people will tend not to ask for money; they have other ways of getting it.

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't see how Lk 6:30 is addressing your initial impulse to provide charity without prompting; it is addressing another's person's initial impulse to request something from you.

I do not provide anything without prompting. The prompting comes from the Holy Spirit. If he does not prompt me to do something then I keep my pennies to myself.

 

[Catherineanne]

So, you are stating that, today, people are directed by the Holy Spirit in their hearts apart from the words in the Bible? I thought it was written: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer 17:9). Why even have a Bible, then? Why did Jesus waste 3 years to teach only his disciples alive at the time, if the Holy Spirit would modify or dispense of his instructions soon afterwards?

I begin to hear the grinding of axes in accompaniment to your posts.

The Holy Spirit dos not prompt anyone apart from the words of the Bible. The prompting must always be in accordance with what is said in the Bible, and most particularly by Christ himself, as the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. The Bible helps us to find God, and Christ, but it does not have the same authority or status as God.

 

[Catherineanne]

I have previously been in the orthodox Christian religion for over 3 decades, and have been a Bible teacher for over a decade. I can understand Lk 6:30 just fine, even in the Greek; I'm just not understanding how orthodox Christians can ignore or reinterpret this verse.

And there we have it; the grinding axe.

You are here to confirm your existing prejudices, rather than to learn. Well, good luck with that; I have better things to do than play such games.

 

[ananda]

And there we have it; the grinding axe.

You are here to confirm your existing prejudices, rather than to learn. Well, good luck with that; I have better things to do than play such games.

Not at all, I stated that in defense to an accusation that I was a know-nothing teenager playing games. No axe to grind; I was merely hoped to find other opinions regarding a question I had. Just because I've rejected many opinions and interpretations as unreasonable (to me) does not mean I am playing games.

 

[Catherineanne]

I am Gnostic in the sense that things but be tested and understood for oneself, and then to follow in faithfulness - not merely on blind faith. ...

Not at all, I stated that in defense to an accusation that I was a know-nothing teenager playing games. No axe to grind; I was merely hoped to find other opinions regarding a question I had. Just because I've rejected many opinions and interpretations as unreasonable (to me) does not mean I am playing games. ....

That is not what 'Gnostic' denotes in relation to Christianity.

If you are asking opinions from Christians about their own personal faith then surely it ought to be totally irrelevant whether you happen to agree with those opinions. But what I see is you leaping at every chance to tell us that we are mistaken, misinterpreting, ignoring or twisting Scripture and/or the Holy Spirit. In effect, you want to demonstrate to ignorant Christians how superior you are to all of us, by revealing the inadequacy of every single interpretation that is not your own.

That is not really what this part of the forum is for, imo. So, byeeee.

 

[ananda]

That is not what 'Gnostic' denotes in relation to Christianity.

That was my interpretation and application of gnosticism.

If you are asking opinions from Christians about their own personal faith then surely it ought to be totally irrelevant whether you happen to agree with those opinions. But what I see is you leaping at every chance to tell us that we are mistaken, misinterpreting, ignoring or twisting Scripture and/or the Holy Spirit. In effect, you want to demonstrate to ignorant Christians how superior you are to all of us, by revealing the inadequacy of every single interpretation that is not your own.

That is not really what this part of the forum is for, imo. So, byeeee.

My counter-questions are meant to explore the underlying basis of the respondents' stated beliefs which remained unexplained; I'm sorry that you interpret my questions otherwise.

Bye!

 

[oi_antz]

I left orthodox Christianity because of various Biblical difficulties I could no longer explain or defend, like this verse, and because of irrational, emotional attacks from Christians when I questioned them about those difficulties. I am here to explore the potential of regaining some of that faith, asking the hard questions again from those still within orthodox Christianity.

Why was this verse difficult for you to explain as an orthodox Christian? You will never get away from emotional and irrational responses from Christians, as long as they are convinced their salvation is in their beliefs. Because if you question those beliefs upon which their sense of salvation is built, you are effectively challenging the basis of their salvation. If you have the truth on your side in this, and they prefer their sense of security over the truth, all they have left is untruth, and you can easily demonstrate that to be irrational.

 

[Chicken Little]

"have been a Bible teacher for over a decade." oh dear the least of your worries need to be on who I give what too or when.

 

[oi_antz]

I am not sure how Lk 6:30 can be applied, which is why I asked the question.

It requires self sacrifice. Suffer for someone else's sake. His vision is that everyone should give freely, help each other. The world instead says everyone should earn and keep what they have. Do you know there is plenty of resource in this world for everyone? Do you know there is 1.8 acres per person of arable land? Do you know that is enough to raise all food for everyone to live with plenty, even if they are omnivorous? This is not even considering the multiplier we could achieve with vertical farming and converting deserts to arable land. Yet we have those dying from starvation and cold, homeless people and peopleless homes. This world is all upside down and back to front. That is why heaven will be paradise, because everyone there is on side with Jesus' vision, and He has chosen them because they genuinely want the world to be that way.

 

[ananda]

Why was this verse difficult for you to explain as an orthodox Christian? You will never get away from emotional and irrational responses from Christians, as long as they are convinced their salvation is in their beliefs. Because if you question those beliefs upon which their sense of salvation is built, you are effectively challenging the basis of their salvation. If you have the truth on your side in this, and they prefer their sense of security over the truth, all they have left is untruth, and you can easily demonstrate that to be irrational.

Perhaps.

My intention is not to drag Christians down to where I am. It was hopefully to find a Christian who could drag me up to where they are Unfortunately, I tug hard.

 

[ananda]

It requires self sacrifice. Suffer for someone else's sake. His vision is that everyone should give freely, help each other. The world instead says everyone should earn and keep what they have. Do you know there is plenty of resource in this world for everyone? Do you know there is 1.8 acres per person of arable land? Do you know that is enough to raise all food for everyone to live with plenty, even if they are omnivorous? This is not even considering the multiplier we could achieve with vertical farming and converting deserts to arable land. Yet we have those dying from starvation and cold, homeless people and peopleless homes. This world is all upside down and back to front. That is why heaven will be paradise, because everyone there is on side with Jesus' vision, and He has chosen them because they genuinely want the world to be that way.

I don't disagree that it would be a paradise that way.

 

[Chicken Little]

Then of what profit is your existence except purely to antagonize Christians with your apostate confusion of things? You have no comprehension of the Spirit who gives us to know all things. You even reject Paul, the only man Jesus called to be an apostle after His Resurrection. You reject Paul, so you rejected Jesus, and left with what now? You are destitute in wisdom and understanding you demonstrate that splendidly. So why flail away with carnal gnat-swallowing straw man allegations and dumb questions? It is all clear as a bell to a man who is revealed all things by the Spirit. You should know that if you had any semblance of scriptural and spiritual comprehension.

(1Co 2:7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:


(1Co 2:8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


(1Co 2:9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


(1Co 2:10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


(1Co 2:11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


(1Co 2:12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


(1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


(1Co 2:15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.


(1Co 2:16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

your all over this one.. if he caused one of those little one to sin....... he had better find everyone of those people and those children and apologize for not knowing what he is talking about and beg their forgiveness for destroying their faith..





Zec 11:16

“For behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for the perishing, seek the scattered, heal the broken, or sustain the one standing, but will devour the flesh of the fat sheep and tear off their hoofs.
Zec 11:17

“Woe to the worthless shepherd
Who leaves the flock!
A sword will be on his arm
And on his right eye!
His arm will be totally withered
And his right eye will be blind.”


Act 20:28

“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made youAct 20:29

“I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
Act 20:30

and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
Act 20:31

“Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

 

[oi_antz]

Perhaps.

My intention is not to drag Christians down to where I am. It was hopefully to find a Christian who could drag me up to where they are Unfortunately, I tug hard.

You missed my question though.

 

[Tellastory]

OK, thank you for your patience in explaining that to me. I can see how it might apply to enemies ... but would an enemy ask for something?

An enemy in authority would ask. If uncompliant, more than likely, they will demand after that, and then if still resistent, force will be given.

Well, I ask the question because I am not sure. I am Gnostic in the sense that things but be tested and understood for oneself, and then to follow in faithfulness - not merely on blind faith. I do not know if this was authentically spoken by Jesus, and if so, how it would practically apply today ... or, if this was redacted into the manuscripts by malicious detractors, I do not know either.

Police are generally good in the performance of their duties, but we have seen how some cops can just plain go bad. Fear & distrust is spreading, and it is important to apply His words now more than ever to yield to those in authority, even to the froward when the stress and the insecurities of the day mounts to tempt one to be abusive in authority.

1 Peter 2:18Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

 

[ananda]

You missed my question though.

The question "Why was this verse difficult for you to explain as an orthodox Christian"? I'm sorry. My answer: The verse was always in the back of my mind, but I spent most of my time focusing on Paul's writings.