DUGGERS and 3 questions

[Ada Lovelace]

No wonder one of the sins God hates is pride.

He hates your pride, the Duggar's pride, and the pride of all other Young Earth Creationists as much as the pride of everybody else, Smidlee.

 

[HannahT]

It’s worth pointing out that the scenario in “Lessons From Moral Failures in a Family” isn’t based on Josh Dugger or the Dugger family.

I realize that. Gawker actually picked up the story from recoveringgrace.org. They reprinted one of their articles. Sadly, that part of the whole pamphlet has been around for YEARS! People have been trying to expose this organization since at least the 1970's. The only reason I know anything about them is one of their main offices is near my town.

I friend of mine has been researching, and has been asked to speak at many cult recovery, spiritual abuse, mental health, etc type of organizations from the viewpoint of Christianity. She is a Christian, and at times that's interesting for her since most of them don't like Christian's (professionals in that field). lol! She is preparing after their request for her next talk in Sweden soon. I brought them up a couple of times due to literature (to her) of theirs floating around here, and I have been quite aware of the danger of them for a number of years now. She has some of the stuff that was given to her from members that left that group, and let me tell you - it will curl your hair! It's like it has a small grain of truth, and the rest is just awful.

It's hard to find the actual documents right now, because google is swamped with the current story right now. Before the story broke? It was easier to find - I may ask my friend whom I'm sure has links to other material. Their views of sexuality are unhealthy - even towards the males.

It was no secret the man (Gothard) was messing with the girls that worked for him, and that he hand picked himself. People knew about that for years, but because the girls are so far down the chain of command? You have to keep in mind they have very EXTREME views towards gender, and they were looked at as unreliable. These children are brought up from cradle to grave with really strange outlooks on life, and many outright cruel scare tactics.

His position almost reminds me of that wacky Mormon leader (that takes more than one wife) that is in jail, because of underage marriages, etc. Whatever Gothard says - must be true! He is a single man that has never been married, but shows you how to be a good spouse - and how to raise children properly. If Gothard says its better to have curly hair? The women get perms. If he says the boys pants need to lay on their shoes just so? It's done. He almost has a Pope Position, but in a twisted way. God speaks through him!

Sadly, the Duggars spoke of him and his following for years. They have adopted it, and promoted his seminars, etc. They bought into it hook, line and sinker.

Girls are not allowed to have minds of their own - its looked at as sinful. You are under the umbrella of authority of your father until such time he finds you a husband - and his authority is transferred to him. College and trades are frowned upon for women - even if their family is in dire need of money. Their whole life is steered by men - not just Daddy.

You need to keep in mind that they don't look at it as 'blaming the victims'. They have been taught otherwise, and they believe it! Generally, the boy will take some responsibility...yet the girls are asked to repent of their actions that helped it happen.

Basically, its modesty overload! Those girls are always dressed how they should be, and take great care to do so. Yet, if a boy has some lust? They must do self reflection as well, which to me has to be confusing as all get out. Yet, not uncommon. The common question: What was your sin that caused your brother to stumble? Ask God to forgive you for it! He (the boy) has asked the same, and we need to keep in mind he is forgiven. Their counseling on a more intense level can't be much better. Those kids never had a chance within that movement. None of them - the girls or Josh.

Remember the women are completely covered not just due to scripture, but because they protecting the men from lust. Yet, even with their modest attire - if he does - she still has some part in that. If he lusts - they both own it. That's just the way they think. It's also why many are badly damaged once they do leave, and have counseling to get out of that mindset. It's really sad. The whole thing is.

Most of these families are poor as church mice too. They don't have what the Duggars have. Many come out malnutritioned, because they didn't have enough food to feed everyone. Their clothes are awful after many generations of hand me downs, because even Goodwill is to expensive. Its awful the struggle they have when they leave. Just awful.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

The victims are basically screwed no matter what at this point in time. Either they got the justice they wanted but will be told they're brainwashed and only saying what they're told, or they didn't get the justice they deserve and probably never will. I had read somewhere that the non-related victim had tweeted about this or something, to the effect that she had moved on and everyone else should too, and she was cyber-beaten to a pulp by replies to her tweet. Other victims apparently took her to task for saying she'd moved on, with one saying that she could never move on and that she needed to be honest with herself. I wish I could find where I read that. I will have to keep looking when I get home.

It's possible that the Tweet truly was genuine, but I'm leery considering how there are so many fabulists and frauds on Twitter. There is another thread on here about a Tweet that was claimed to be from one of the Duggar sister's, and was actually fake despite the claim that it was her "official" account.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/im-worried-about-jana-duggar.7889842/#post-68042045

Since the non-related victim's name has never been revealed publicly by the Duggars and was redacted in the police report, anyone could claim to be the victim. The only benefit that victim has is more anonymity than the Duggar sisters. If that Tweet really was from her, I think it would have been zoomed to the top of the news pile about this scandal.

 

[sdmsanjose]

The parenthood of the Duggars have as an accomplishment in that they had something to do with their eleven teens and adult children that have never have committed even a minor crime.

By Cute Tink

That we know of. Seems they have little trouble covering up major crimes, why would minor crimes be an issue?

“That we know of” can be said about a lot of people and maybe people on this thread; that means nothing. Your insinuation is that the Duggars have covered up minor crimes. All that does is put a damper and a doubt on the fact that the eleven teens and adults have NO evidence that they have committed any crime.

With the great amount of attention and the media, I would say that if there was a crime committed by the Duggars (other than Josh); there is a good chance that it would come out. Once the media gets into frenzy on someone then they are relentless. Even a President cannot cover up his wrongdoings, such as President Nixon. The press was all over him and exposed him and forced him to resign as president.

 

[Cute Tink]

“That we know of” can be said about a lot of people and maybe people on this thread; that means nothing. Your insinuation is that the Duggars have covered up minor crimes. All that does is put a damper and a doubt on the fact that the eleven teens and adults have NO evidence that they have committed any crime.

I didn't insinuate that they have committed a crime at all. You have stated that they have not. I am just noting that this was a major crime and they successfully hid it for years. I just think you are stating with a little too much authority that nobody is doing anything wrong.

 

[sdmsanjose]

“That we know of” can be said about a lot of people and maybe people on this thread; that means nothing. Your insinuation is that the Duggars have covered up minor crimes. All that does is put a damper and a doubt on the fact that the eleven teens and adults have NO evidence that they have committed any crime.

By Cute Tink

I didn't insinuate that they have committed a crime at all. You have stated that they have not. I am just noting that this was a major crime and they successfully hid it for years. I just think you are stating with a little too much authority that nobody is doing anything wrong.

I didn't insinuate that they have committed a crime at all.
Yes you did because when I said the 11 Duggar children have never committed a crime you said “That we know of”. That is an insinuation.
Your statement is reprinted below.

That we know of. Seems they have little trouble covering up major crimes, why would minor crimes be an issue?

I just think you are stating with a little too much authority that nobody is doing anything wrong.
And you I thinkare stating with a little too much authority that somebody is doing something wrong that you do not know about.


The fact that the media has been relentless in looking into the whole Duggar family without finding any crime by the 11 children gives some reason to believe that the 11 Duggar children have not committed a crime. What reason do you have to believe that the 11 Duggar children have committed a crime?

 

[Cute Tink]

The fact that the media has been relentless in looking into the whole Duggar family without finding any crime by the 11 children gives some reason to believe that the 11 Duggar children have not committed a crime.

The fact that you would have said the same thing about Josh Duggar a few weeks ago isn't very strong evidence IMO.

What reason do you have to believe that the 11 Duggar children have committed a crime?

I don't. I just acknowledge that lack of evidence of wrongdoing is not enough to parade around like they've only suffered one mistake (one repeated mistake as it seems) and thus they should be applauded for how awesome they are.

 

[Smidlee]

He hates your pride, the Duggar's pride, and the pride of all other Young Earth Creationists as much as the pride of everybody else, Smidlee.

You are right the two edged sword cut both ways.

 

[sdmsanjose]

What reason do you have to believe that the 11 Duggar children have committed a crime?

By Cute Tink
I don't. I just acknowledge that lack of evidence of wrongdoing is not enough to parade around like they've only suffered one mistake (one repeated mistake as it seems) and thus they should be applauded for how awesome they are.

You do not have any reason to believe that the 11 Duggar children committed a crime but that did not stop you from insinuating without any credible reason.

You need to read more closely. Your statement of “… they've only suffered one mistake (one repeated mistake as it seems)” shows that you do not even comprehend my statements. I did NOT include Josh Duggar in my 11 Duggar children yet you talk like I did. I have been talking about the 11 Duggar children MINUS Josh Duggar so you including Josh Duggar to try and make a point is irrelevant.

My statement is “The parenthood of the Duggars has as an accomplishment in that they had something to do with their eleven teens and adult children that have never have committed even a minor crime.”

You then add words to make your point look like it is correct. You added the words of “…they should be applauded for how awesome they are.” I have never used those dramatic words of applaud and awesome but I can see that you like to use drama words to try and make your point look better.

Look, you want to insinuate that the 11 Duggar children have something to hide without any reason. I take the stance that if the Duggar family has been hounded by the media relentlessly and has found nothing then I am going to use that as a good reason to think that they have never committed a crime. It seems that you want to throw in all the 11 other Duggar children (not including Josh) into suspect because Josh Duggar committed terrible crimes. I hope you never get chosen for Jury duty.


Let us call it a day and agree to disagree as our discussions not going to convince either of us.

 

[tulc]

well...this is awkward:
http://gawker.com/here-is-josh-duggar-making-a-joke-on-television-about-i-1706773265
tulc(is just sayn')

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

However, Jesus commands us to forgive and repent. He has repented and the family has forgiven him. This was also done over a decade ago, and it doesn't appear that making this public helped the victims.

They're not perfect, but I do believe that they are the real deal of a family of Godly people doing their best to follow Christ. To me, it's obvious that they walk the walk with their talk.

It must be okay because they're supposed to be the perfect Christian family. Personally, I can't see past their raging hypocrisy and dislike of people not like them already so you'll pardon me if I don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they weren't Christian you would not be as defensive about them I'm sure.

 

[GeorgiaGuyinAtlanta]

Honestly, I feel that certain media are trying to destroy them because they represent what is wholesome as godly, family following Jesus Christ. That they'd break the law to disclose what happened to scorn a family for something one family member of 21 total members did over a decade ago in his youth shows that they are reaching and doing so to slander the family. The family didn't break any laws, as parents are not required to report such acts within their own children. The media is evil, by and large, and are run by atheist, agnostic, god-haters, many of them willful homosexuals, so you can see that they had it out for them. This does not mean that the acts were right, or that they are acceptable, but they are forgivable.

 

[katautumn]

Honestly, I feel that certain media are trying to destroy them because they represent what is wholesome as godly, family following Jesus Christ.

Wholesome, godly people don't violate their sisters' genitals in their sleep.

That they'd break the law to disclose what happened to scorn a family for something one family member of 21 total members did over a decade ago in his youth shows that they are reaching and doing so to slander the family.

No law was broken. The case (minus the pertinent details) was public record until the Duggars successfully petitioned a judge to destroy the case file. Also, slander is when you say something that is untrue to defame someone's character. Josh did molest his sisters and one girl unrelated to the family. Speaking about it is not slander.

The family didn't break any laws, as parents are not required to report such acts within their own children.

Failure to report a crime is illegal.

The media is evil, by and large, and are run by atheist, agnostic, god-haters, many of them willful homosexuals, so you can see that they had it out for them. This does not mean that the acts were right, or that they are acceptable, but they are forgivable.

So incestuous child molesters = okay, but atheists and gay people = evil?

 

[Followers4christ]

Michelle Duggar said her daughters "have been victimized more by what has happened in the last couple of weeks than they were 12 years ago because, honestly, they didn't even understand and know that anything had happened until after the fact when they were told about it."

Jessa Duggar (one of the victims), featured like her brother in the family's TLC series, "19 Kids and Counting," told Fox in an interview conducted in Arkansas on Wednesday that she wanted to defend him. She said allegations he's a child molester or pedophile are "so overboard and a lie," Fox reported.

 

[Followers4christ]

So incestuous child molesters = okay, but atheists and gay people = evil?

Josh is not a child molester since he was also a child at the time. As we all know being a child means you don't always make mature choices.

 

[Followers4christ]

From tonight's interview:

Explaining his decision not to send Josh away for treatment the first time he told them what he'd done, Jim Bob stood by his and his wife's actions. "We talked to him. We put all kinds of punishments on him. We watched him all the time. I took him to work with me and we just poured our life into it," the family patriarch recalled. But despite their best efforts, it seemed that Josh wasn't as on the mend as they'd hoped.

"After the third time he came to us was when we felt like, 'We've done everything we can as parents. We need to get outside help,'" Jim Bob said. "Some of my best friends came over. We talked about it. At that point, we pulled Josh out of the home and we knew a man who mentors young men. He really helped young men who had made unwise choices in their lives to get straightened out." That's when Josh was sent for a semi-unofficial, Christian-inspired rehabilitation in Little Rock (where he also did hard labor).

The mom of 19 quickly shifted the focus to what she saw as the silver lining of the ordeal. "I think that we had one ray of hope in that Josh had a tender conscience and that he was the one that came and shared on his own even though the others didn't know anything of his wrongdoing," she explained.

Read the interview at:

http://m.usmagazine.com/celebrity-n...elly-8-revelations-about-joshs-scandal-201536

"We had all resolved it, we had forgiven, we had moved on in life," Michelle Duggar said.

Jim Duggar: "We're just going to go on and live life," he said. "We're going to go on and serve God and make a difference in the world."

 

[Followers4christ]

Josh Duggar has already lost his job, been publicly shamed, and had his name permanently sullied by these revelations, but critics are not satisfied. They want the show canceled and anyone who supports the family to give up and join the mob of stone throwers and witch burners. They say that Josh is not the only villain here — his parents are also guilty for not going to the police immediately.

1) The Duggars are Christian. The Duggars are conservative. The Duggars don’t believe in gay marriage. Someone in the Duggar family did something terrible.

These are all facts. None of these facts conflict. None of these facts disprove any of the other facts. From the way liberals always react in these situations, you’d think that a Christian committing a sin somehow delegitimizes the faith itself, but that’s not quite accurate. (So NO they are not hypocrites).

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/the-duggars-arent-hypocrites-progressives-are/

Matt Walsh (a professional blogger for the Blaze) said:

"They are living by their convictions, in defiance of cultural trends, and clearly bestowing a strong faith in all of their children," writes Walsh. "That faith hasn’t...made any of them perfect saints, but it seems genuine."
Josh has been called a hypocrite by many media networks and individuals, but Walsh explains why he does not agree with that accusation.

"A Christian failing to live up to his faith does not make him a hypocrite."

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Wholesome, godly people don't violate their sisters' genitals in their sleep.

Even Godly people sin and receive forgiveness.

So incestuous child molesters = okay,

People that stop sinning and ask for forgiveness are supposed to be saved, if they truly mean it.

but atheists and gay people = evil?

I'm not sure how evil they are, but if someone doesn't stops sinning, I'm not sure they will be saved. Also people that don't know God, I read he wont know them, or something like that. I more concerned about if I'm saved. Instead of worry about people I don't know. I know Atheist and gay, that are family and friends,that between them and God, not me. The Atheist and gay people isn't on my concern list. I would be more concerned about a child molester. I'm not sure a grown up that molest kids, would be able to stop. I believe it's a sickness that they cant control. I believe they should be looked up for ever. But I know they wont, so I hope they go to therapy, when they get out. A kid or teen that molest or fondle would get therapy, removed from their victims for a while. Some are not removed from their victims. It takes them away the only family they know. These are usually foster kids removed from parents. I'm not sure they re offend, after they receive therapy. I've been told some wont.

 

[cow451]

Honestly, I feel that certain media are trying to destroy them because they represent what is wholesome as godly, family following Jesus Christ. That they'd break the law to disclose what happened to scorn a family for something one family member of 21 total members did over a decade ago in his youth shows that they are reaching and doing so to slander the family.

It isn't slander if it is true. It is humiliating, but not slanderous.

The family didn't break any laws, as parents are not required to report such acts within their own children.

It is mandatory to report child abuse and parents are not exempt.

The media is evil, by and large, and are run by atheist, agnostic, god-haters, many of them willful homosexuals, so you can see that they had it out for them. This does not mean that the acts were right, or that they are acceptable, but they are forgivable.

Forgivable, but not forgettable. The Duggars (parents) waited until Josh came to them THREE times before they acted. The parents failed to protect their daughters (and the other girl) and they delayed getting help for a clearly troubled Josh. The parents are culpable.

 

[cow451]

"A Christian failing to live up to his faith does not make him a hypocrite."

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. What is a parent failing to protect their children called?