Experiential evidence for religion

[dlamberth]

...I just have a hard time taking other people's clearly subjective experiences as fact. .

Mystical experiences are intensely personal. They are not for anyone other than the person who has had that inner experience. We should never take the inner experience of another person as fact. And if anyone makes claims of their inner mystical experience as fact, I'd have a hard time accepting it as well. Now that doesn't mean that a person couldn't test it on their own to see what they see.

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[dlamberth]

I'm curious about your Jesus revelation if you feel like going into more detail and if it can be explained in words.

This wasn't directed towards me, but it brings up an interesting way to experience and know Christ that I'd like to share. It's a practice that has mystical application. The practice is to let yourself sit in the skin of Jesus Christ, and as Christ look from His perspective at the Heart of Christ. Feel it, touch it, see it, swim in it...be the Heart of Christ.

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[LoAmmi]

This wasn't directed towards me, but it brings up an interesting way to experience and know Christ that I'd like to share. It's a practice that has mystical application. The practice is to let yourself sit in the skin of Jesus Christ, and as Christ look from His perspective at the Heart of Christ. Feel it, touch it, see it, swim in it...be the Heart of Christ.

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How does one who doesn't believe Jesus to be special experience this?

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

It seems that even today the vast majority of religious people do not consider experiential evidence very important. I don't expect evidence that could be published in a scientific journal, but I expect something. Why should a person believe one specific religion out of many possible religions without any personal experiential evidence?

I believed in my religion without any personal experiences for the greater part of my life because Islaam makes sense on every level (especially the concept of God and all of His Names and Attributes that He told us about).

I did have a couple of personal experiences relatively recently that reinforce my belief in Islaam. The biggest one was a blessing during one of the hardest times of my life. To this day I see that experience as a glad-tiding, comfort, and enormous blessing from God. It has since become my rock.

However, I would still believe in my religion even if it were not for that blessing because of how logical and beautiful Islaam is.

 

[morningstar2651]

If you're curious about mysticism, I highly recommend Part 1 of Book 4 by Aleister Crowley. It's short, well written, and an interesting read. It was published in the winter of 1912-1913.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

Kind of relevant:

A karamah is an extraordinary matter or event that is brought about at the hands of a believer who obeys God, refrains from sin and whose piety at a very high level in the sight of God. Unlike a miracle which is meant to be done publically so that people would recognize the truthfulness of the Prophet, a karamah usually only benefits the one to whom it is given. A karamah could include such things as knowledge, power or something astonishing such as the karamah that was given to Usayd ibn al-Hudayr, one of Prophet Muhammad’s companions. A group of angels in a cloud of light shaded Usayd when he recited Quran[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT]. A karamah also occurred for Maryam, the mother of Prophet Jesus.

So her Lord accepted her with goodly acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zakariya . Every time he entered her praying place, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: “O Maryam (Mary)! From where have you got this?” She said, “This is from God. Verily, God provides sustenance to whom He wills, without limit.” (Quran 3:37)

What is a Miracle? - The Religion of Islam

 

[gord44]

I'm curious about your Jesus revelation if you feel like going into more detail and if it can be explained in words.

I have been a Christian on and off in the past. Going from tradition to tradition (EO, Catholic, Reformed, gnostic, etc) trying to find my way. Could get into the traditions, rituals and theology, but never had that moment where I was like 'Jesus is God'. I just kinda paid lip service to it. Eventually I left the faith and had a wonderful journey studying Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, various pagan and magick paths. Even considered myself an atheist for a while or at the very least a strong agnostic.

Then I was reading the Bhagavid Gita and as i mentioned before it just clicked. Krishna's words made me actually believe Jesus is God. It was mind blowing. For me anyways. Like 10 years of theology all made sense at once. That's about the best I can explain it.

 

[light upon light]

Then I was reading the Bhagavid Gita and as i mentioned before it just clicked. Krishna's words made me actually believe Jesus is God. It was mind blowing. For me anyways. Like 10 years of theology all made sense at once. That's about the best I can explain it.

So where does that put you now?

 

[dlamberth]

How does one who doesn't believe Jesus to be special experience this?

The same practice can be done with Abraham or Moses or any of the other prophets. Or not at all.

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[gord44]

So where does that put you now?

not sure. I'm just chillin. Re-reading the Gospel of John and Revelation.

 

[LoAmmi]

The same practice can be done with Abraham or Moses or any of the other prophets. Or not at all.

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That seems very close to idolatry.

 

[Eyes wide Open]

I'm curious about your Jesus revelation if you feel like going into more detail and if it can be explained in words.

apologies for jumping in.

Just as a point of reference after my previous statement about Jesus. I don't believe jesus is literally God, but that he created literally as the son of his father, (symbolic wording) The whole universe functions by created elements that keep it functioning, God creates in this fashion. Jesus did the same, he created with elements that allow life on earth to function, love, compassion, empathy forgiveness and service to others. In this light he was the son of the creator. You've also got two parts to the trinity there.

 

[dlamberth]

That seems very close to idolatry.

It's not idolatry because the prophets are not being worshiped with that kind of attunement.

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[cloudyday2]

Mystical experiences are intensely personal. They are not for anyone other than the person who has had that inner experience. We should never take the inner experience of another person as fact. And if anyone makes claims of their inner mystical experience as fact, I'd have a hard time accepting it as well. Now that doesn't mean that a person couldn't test it on their own to see what they see.

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I have a hard time imagining how I could do that. Meditation is a huge effort for me. I'm down here flunking "Sprirituality 100 for Dummies" and you're talking about fancy stuff.

 

[dlamberth]

I have a hard time imagining how I could do that. Meditation is a huge effort for me. I'm down here flunking "Sprirituality 100 for Dummies" and you're talking about fancy stuff.

You made me grin. Thanks. Each of us has our own spiritual path. None is more right or better than another.

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[cloudyday2]

I believed in my religion without any personal experiences for the greater part of my life because Islaam makes sense on every level (especially the concept of God and all of His Names and Attributes that He told us about).

I did have a couple of personal experiences relatively recently that reinforce my belief in Islaam. The biggest one was a blessing during one of the hardest times of my life. To this day I see that experience as a glad-tiding, comfort, and enormous blessing from God. It has since become my rock.

However, I would still believe in my religion even if it were not for that blessing because of how logical and beautiful Islaam is.

That seems like a sensible attitude. Some religious people seem to think that evidence is unimportant. Of course evidence can't stand alone either. My problem is that agnosticism is what I like, but the evidence keeps pointing to Christianity which I find impossible to reconcile with common sense and my understanding of history. So I wonder if the source might use the native religious vocabulary of the listener (Christianity for me). On the other hand, if the source is my own subconscious then it makes perfect sense that the messages would use my native Christian motif.

Kind of relevant:

A karamah is an extraordinary matter or event that is brought about at the hands of a believer who obeys God, refrains from sin and whose piety at a very high level in the sight of God. Unlike a miracle which is meant to be done publically so that people would recognize the truthfulness of the Prophet, a karamah usually only benefits the one to whom it is given. A karamah could include such things as knowledge, power or something astonishing such as the karamah that was given to Usayd ibn al-Hudayr, one of Prophet Muhammad’s companions. A group of angels in a cloud of light shaded Usayd when he recited Quran[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT]. A karamah also occurred for Maryam, the mother of Prophet Jesus.

So her Lord accepted her with goodly acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zakariya . Every time he entered her praying place, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said: “O Maryam (Mary)! From where have you got this?” She said, “This is from God. Verily, God provides sustenance to whom He wills, without limit.” (Quran 3:37)

What is a Miracle? - The Religion of Islam

Thanks, that makes sense to me. If the source intends to affect only the listener, then the source would probably use personalized vocabulary to maximize results.

There might also be messages meant for social hierarchies in-between the two extremes (individual or personal). Like a message might be targeted at a particular religious denomination?

 

[smaneck]

If you're curious about mysticism, I highly recommend Part 1 of Book 4 by Aleister Crowley. It's short, well written, and an interesting read. It was published in the winter of 1912-1913.

Oh please! You could have said Rumi, St. John of the Cross, Ramakrishna, the Dalai Lama. But you point us to Aleister Crowley? :o

Mysticism and playing with the occult are very different things.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Oh please! You could have said Rumi, St. John of the Cross, Ramakrishna, the Dalai Lama. But you point us to Aleister Crowley? :o

Mysticism and playing with the occult are very different things.

Mysticism by its very nature is occultic. It's hidden, not exoteric.

How are they very different from each other?

 

[morningstar2651]

Oh please! You could have said Rumi, St. John of the Cross, Ramakrishna, the Dalai Lama. But you point us to Aleister Crowley? :o

Mysticism and playing with the occult are very different things.

Have you read what Crowley wrote, or only things that have been written about him?

 

[dlamberth]

Mysticism by its very nature is occultic. It's hidden, not exoteric.

How are they very different from each other?

Would you call that experience of "wow" when you first see a rainbow "occultic"? I wouldn't. Yet it is a mystical experience in that it momentary takes you out of your self.

Mysticism and the Occult are two different things.

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