Do you wear a tallit in church?

[SpiritPsalmist]

Whaaaat????
Never heard that before. Is that something Messianic Christians believe we should do?

And why??

Word of wisdom: Do not get your information of a particular group from anyone who hates that group....the information you get will be incorrect.

It would be best if you sought out information of what Messianics believe from the Messianics themselves. You will find that Messianics can be as varied as Baptist, Penticostals, etc..

Experience has taught me that getting info from the source of those who are not part of a group is bad info indeed (my Charismatic pastors told me all sorts of things against Messianics, saying "they believe this, and they believe that" of which I found out for myself their accusations were untrue). Or what they say may be somewhat correct but relayed in such a manner as to make it sound like something it is not....kinda like in the NT where the believers were accused of drinking blood (ref to communion). There was some truth (the wine represented the blood) but taken totally out of context and making the accusation a total untruth.

That's not to say that there may be some who call themselves Messianics who believe such things. When I was in Florida I attended a very well grounded Messianic group. Since moving to Kansas I've come across several groups who I call Messianic wannabe's who call themselves Messianic but only want to fashion their activities according to their own personal likes and dislikes and they have some very odd teachings.

Again, if you want to get correct info, do not listen to anyone whose sole purpose is to bring down their fellow brothers and sisters by making things up about them and giving the impression that they are not saved. I trust solely in Jesus for my salvation and the works that I do are a proving of that salvation (the Apostle James says that in the NT).

Also, read the Bible for yourself. Become familiar with your OT then read the NT and you will see how well they mesh. Read whole thoughts, not just a verse here and a verse there that supposedly talks about whatever the person teaching says. None of the Apostles taught against Torah and in fact totally lived by it and taught the new believers to live by it too. It's all there in Acts. The true Messianic does not hate Paul. We do feel though that he has been totally misrepresented by many teachers who have him saying things that he did not teach. The NT totally coincides with the OT. One cannot know that though unless they know their OT.

I don't believe everyone must become Messianic and start following everything perfectly. I only do as I read something in scripture and as the Holy Spirit draws. No one should do what is not in their heart to do or one who does not feel the Holy Spirit drawing them. We should not ignore though or accept an "explaining away" of something we do see in scripture though. As a child I can remember reading something and asking my teachers about it and it being explained away. Their explanations never made sense. As I got older I would ask more and I would notice increased irritation from them as my questions seemed to be taken as an affront. My nature though only made me search it out more.

For one to truly know if what they have been taught and what they believe is true they must study the Bible for themselves and not rely on other teachers to help explain it. That's what the Jehovahs Witnesses do. They don't study the Bible without their special JW booklets to tell them what their supposed to believe, and like robots, they just accept it without question.

A good source of Messianic teaching would be FFOZ.com (but don't just blindly accept what they say either) Check it out

 

[14messenger]

oh yeah, alot of these chutches promote the blowing of a shofar now, to usher in the Spirit.

paaaleeeeese!

It is a neat sound.

 

[14messenger]

Word of wisdom: Do not get your information of a particular group from anyone who hates that group....the information you get will be incorrect.

It would be best if you sought out information of what Messianics believe from the Messianics themselves. You will find that Messianics can be as varied as Baptist, Penticostals, etc..

Experience has taught me that getting info from the source of those who are not part of a group is bad info indeed (my Charismatic pastors told me all sorts of things against Messianics, saying "they believe this, and they believe that" of which I found out for myself their accusations were untrue).

That's not to say that there may be some who call themselves Messianics who believe such things. When I was in Florida I attended a very well grounded Messianic group. Since moving to Kansas I've come across several groups who call themselves Messianic but have some very odd teachings. Teaching things that just are not in the Bible at all.

Again, if you want to get correct info, do not listen to anyone whose sole purpose is to bring down their fellow brothers and sisters by making things up about them and giving the impression that they are not saved. I trust solely in Jesus for my salvation and the works that I do are a proving of that salvation (the Apostle James says that in the NT).

Also, read the Bible for yourself. Become familiar with your OT then read the NT and you will see how well they mesh. Any true Messianic knows that the NT coincides with the OT. They know that the false interpretation of Paul supposedly teaching against Torah is total rubbish. Paul did NOT say anything against Torah and totally lived according to it.

Beware though, that if you do that you may become sickened and angry at the discovery of all the false teachings that are in our mainstream churches. That's what happened to me anyway.

It is best to trust God. Love doesn't ever fail.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Word of wisdom: Do not get your information of a particular group from anyone who hates that group....the information you get will be incorrect.

It really bothers me when anyone in this forum uses the word 'hate' because that is such a harsh word. Just because someone does not agree with what others do, does not mean that one Christian 'hates' another.

If Jesus calls us to love God and love our neighbor, than isn't use of that word the ultimate put down? Very dismissive? Of course, it is easier to think that the ones who disagree with you hate you because then you can dismiss their opinion as biased.

 

[Frogster]

It really bothers me when anyone in this forum uses the word 'hate' because that is such a harsh word. Just because someone does not agree with what others do, does not mean that one Christian 'hates' another.

If Jesus calls us to love God and love our neighbor, than isn't use of that word the ultimate put down? Very dismissive? Of course, it is easier to think that the ones who disagree with you hate you because then you can dismiss their opinion as biased.

thank you...thank you..thank you...

Yes, the hate word gets dragged out way too easily, especially against a person, in this case that would be me, who talks doctrine, and theology, all to never get scriptural rebuttals back.

Thanks for your post.

 

[Frogster]

The strange thing is, today, Gentiles are trying to live as Jews, all while even the Jewish Christians in Antioch, were living as gentiles, back in Paul's day. So we seem to have a doctrinal role reversal of sorts.

 

[Frogster]

It can be good advice here on the thread, to check your sources both ways, while being careful of this so called "hate person", one should be careful not to receive incorrect info, from a person inside of said group.

 

[Strong in Him]

Word of wisdom: Do not get your information of a particular group from anyone who hates that group....the information you get will be incorrect.

I didn't know what group was being talked about; I was just responding to the posts.
I didn't know what a tallit was, and though I had heard of a shofar, I had never heard of one being used to welcome the Holy Spirit - hence my response.

[It would be best if you sought out information of what Messianics believe from the Messianics themselves.

I didn't know for sure that the OP was referring to Messianics - not until you just told me.

Again, if you want to get correct info, do not listen to anyone whose sole purpose is to bring down their fellow brothers and sisters by making things up about them and giving the impression that they are not saved.

As far as I am aware, the OP has said nothing of the sort. He merely asked who wears a talit in church.
Wear one, don't wear one - makes no difference to salvation, which is through Jesus alone, nothing else.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

It really bothers me when anyone in this forum uses the word 'hate' because that is such a harsh word. Just because someone does not agree with what others do, does not mean that one Christian 'hates' another.

I'm sorry the usage of that word offended you. In my opinion though, it's a fact. I lost several friends in this forum when I changed my little icon from Charismatic to Messianic. Even though at the time I did it it was not an actual change but a defiant act because I was tired of all the bickering between the groups. I put that explanation in my profile and I referred people to read my profile for an explanation but not a one of them read it. They called me names and told how I was re-crucifying Jesus on the cross and told me I was following another Jesus and I was going to hell. Wouldn't you say that's hateful acting? I actually did make the change when I started searching the Messianic beliefs to find out why my "Charismatic" friends were so sure it was a bad direction to go. I found that none of their accusations about the Messianic was true. Instead I felt the Holy Spirit drawing me towards it and then I changed my icon for real.

I totally understand that just because someone does not agree with me does not mean they hate me. That was not my point though. My point was to tell people to search for themselves (not point at at any specific person because there are more than one) and then go toward what God shows you. It may be a totally different direction than what you've been going. It may cost you even.

If Jesus calls us to love God and love our neighbor, than isn't use of that word the ultimate put down? Very dismissive? Of course, it is easier to think that the ones who disagree with you hate you because then you can dismiss their opinion as biased.

I don't dismiss anyone's opinion. I read every post and on other issues my opinions have changed. I don't think they carefully read my posts. When they never actually answer anything that I or a few others bring up but choose instead to ignore it and only recopy and paste what they've said elsewhere then it is clear that they are dismissing my opinions and are themselves biased. I don't think everyone hates me. If I did I would not be here.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I didn't know what group was being talked about; I was just responding to the posts.
I didn't know what a tallit was, and though I had heard of a shofar, I had never heard of one being used to welcome the Holy Spirit - hence my response.

The point of my post was to guide people to search the right places for correct info if they wanted it. Getting info from anyone who is against what they are giving you info on is not a good place to get the info. They are indeed biased...as I ref in my comments about my Charismatic pastors who told me all sorts of bad things the Messianics believed only for me to find they were untrue.

The shofar is the sound of the trump that we will hear on the day the Lord returns. Is it a bad thing to rehearse it (the sound) in our churches if they want to do it? Isn't it worse to choose to not enter into worship with the congregation you are part of but instead sit in the background, poking fun at those who are just because you don't like the way they are doing it? The scriptures do show the shofar being used to welcome the Holy Spirit. It's not a bad thing if people choose to do it. Not saying "you" as in YOU but anyone in general who might be doing this.

I didn't know for sure that the OP was referring to Messianics - not until you just told me.

My comment would be for any group, not just Messianics.

As far as I am aware, the OP has said nothing of the sort. He merely asked who wears a talit in church.
Wear one, don't wear one - makes no difference to salvation, which is through Jesus alone, nothing else.

Please reread the op....we are being made fun of. Look at that "go huddle at home comment". I agree though, it makes no difference in one's salvation whether we do or don't.

 

[cyberlizard]

some really fine advice in the above posts from my Messianic friend.


Steve

 

[Messy]

Please reread the op....we are being made fun of. Look at that "go huddle at home comment". I agree though, it makes no difference in one's salvation whether we do or don't.

In a gentile charismatic church one gentile with a tallit just looks silly, especially if it's a woman. If Jews do that or Messianics it's great, but this is just copying it to act Jewish or something.

 

[Frogster]

In a gentile charismatic church one gentile with a tallit just looks silly, especially if it's a woman. If Jews do that or Messianics it's great, but this is just copying it to act Jewish or something.

And the real sad thing is, with all of the rich Pauline theology, that Paul, the chosen instrumnent, chosen by Jesus gave us, that he suffered for, these congregations for the most part don't want to talk that theology, instead they want to talk tallits. So we could call it serious omission, and actually rude to Paul.

Then they want to promote feast keeping, and the Jewish calendar, all while in Gal 4, Paul said it was a waste of time to be under that, all while Paul himself did not go to Jerusalem for 14 years to keep feasts either. All while the feasts were neve even given to Gentiles.

So as usual, the frog posts facts, facts that never meet fair rebuttal, instead he gets set up as the "hateful person".

 

[Frogster]

As Paul said, the plots of the Jews was an issue, Acts 20:19, but actually the epistles also fight Messianic Judaism and it's forms. They were the infilatration he wrote about, the verses about the unsaved Jews show how they beat him up all of the time, as per 2 Cor 11, and elsewhere.

That is why he went to Jerusalem, where they mostly came from, and in Acts 15 Peter agreed with Paul, not to burden the Church with the yoke of the law, that he could not bear, nor the fathers, and James agreed with Paul too, not to trouble the Gentiles with the full Torah. They just gave a few things, not to freak out the Jews, as the intergration of Jew and Greek was in motion in the churches. But certainly they knew the Sabbath and Festivals were not for the Church, or they would have said so.

And yes, I supposed they would have chuckled if they even thought Gentiles would be wearing a tallit one day, that is my opinion, humor is allowed, and I believe it to be so.

Thanks, fact filled frogster.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

In a gentile charismatic church one gentile with a tallit just looks silly, especially if it's a woman. If Jews do that or Messianics it's great, but this is just copying it to act Jewish or something.

You know their thoughts and their hearts? What if they are Jewish but attending your church? What if they are not Jewish but God has drawn them to wear it? You don't know, therefore you should not judge. If we keep our eyes on God and what He's talking to us about regarding ourselves, we won't have time to watch what other people are doing. I know for certain He will not discuss with you things about me, and vise versa.

Also, I'm reminded of one of the churches I use to attend. Our pastor considered that we were the "most free" church in the area. He was really proud of that. One day we did have a person come in and they were wearing a tallit. This pastor approached him and said, "brother, we're free here, you don't need to wear that". Obviously, we were not free enough to allow someone to wear what they wanted. He stopped coming to the church and found another where they were not offended by his tallit.


Contrary to what some are saying NT scripture does not forbid wearing a tallit if one wants to. Also contrary to some the early Gentile believers did not continue to live as the pagans they were known to be and none of the disciples or apostles started living like pagan Gentiles either.

No one has to become like the Jews. But we should be informed and get correct info. A good place to find correct historical Biblical info would be FFOZ.org.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

duplicate

 

[Jaelyn Liza]

I agree with you Frogster. May I also add that the anointed one is Jesus Himself. And Jesus lives in each one of those who accepted Him and love Him. How much more anointing can you do than Jesus Himself inside you!

However, please also let me say that we should not fall into temptation to judge or condemn people or let ourselves be burdened with anger or annoyance. Jesus is love and His commandment is LOVE. Not that we all fit in, but that we all love our neighbor as ourselves. The people with the tallit ARE our neighbors too.

 

[Messy]

You know their thoughts and their hearts? What if they are Jewish but attending your church? What if they are not Jewish but God has drawn them to wear it? You don't know, therefore you should not judge. If we keep our eyes on God and what He's talking to us about regarding ourselves, we won't have time to watch what other people are doing. I know for certain He will not discuss with you things about me, and vise versa.

Also, I'm reminded of one of the churches I use to attend. Our pastor considered that we were the "most free" church in the area. He was really proud of that. One day we did have a person come in and they were wearing a tallit. This pastor approached him and said, "brother, we're free here, you don't need to wear that". Obviously, we were not free enough to allow someone to wear what they wanted. He stopped coming to the church and found another where they were not offended by his tallit.


Contrary to what some are saying NT scripture does not forbid wearing a tallit if one wants to. Also contrary to some the early Gentile believers did not continue to live as the pagans they were known to be and none of the disciples or apostles started living like pagan Gentiles either.

No one has to become like the Jews. But we should be informed and get correct info. A good place to find correct historical Biblical info would be FFOZ.org.

Yes they should know for themselves what they do, but I saw it once, a woman used it as a flag and was running through church with it during the worship, so unless I had my eyes closed it was impossible not to notice and I didn't judge her, but I really had to laugh, sorry.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

What on earth is a tallit, and why should I be wearing one?

It's a prayer shawl and there is no push for anyone to wear one. However, if once you do some research you desire or God leads you to wear one according to scripture you have the freedom to do so. Generally women do not wear them. However, I have heard compelling argument showing they are free to wear them as well if they so choose. I'd say it's between them and God. Here's an article I found on line that might be of interest to you

The Talit and Paul
​

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Yes they should know for themselves what they do, but I saw it once, a woman used it as a flag and was running through church with it during the worship, so unless I had my eyes closed it was impossible not to notice and I didn't judge her, but I really had to laugh, sorry.

Um, well, that usage of it I think would be considered disrespectful. No need to apologize. I thought you meant that you saw her wearing the shawl (like it's supposed to be worn). Using it in that manner would be the same as taking an American flag (or your Netherlands flag) and cutting it up to make an outfit and/or using it as a table cloth. :o It's a prayer shawl, not a dance outfit. I know people mean well, and they do turn a lot of others off with their misuse of things but I guess all we can do is pray that God will guide them.

I am reminded though of a Birthday stocking (like a Christmas stocking only for his birthday ) I had made for one of the kids in childrens church. I saw him later wearing it on his head like a hat. LOL My first reaction was to tell him "no, that's not how you do it", but God stopped me and said, "he's just a child, he'll learn to use it correctly later". In learning new things (whether physical or spiritual) we all are children for awhile until we mature in whatever it is we are learning.