The Seven Trumpets and The Seven Bowls

[Choose Wisely]

We all know that people used to harvest corn or other grain with a sickle, but not people. This alone tells us this part of the vision is very symbolic. Next, at this time in John's narrative, he is at the midpoint of the week. The days of Great tribulation have not yet started. Notice that there is a warning in chapter 14 NOT to take the mark. Of course God would send out this warning before the mark was established and before people took it. This is probably just before the false prophet shows up and before the image is built.

This part of the vision is symbolic of the harvest of both the righteous and unrighteous, and it is PROPHETIC; that is, it is showing the FUTURE harvest. Soon after this, millions of righteous will lose their head to the Beast. Notice John wrote, "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." That is future from this point. Then, at the battle of Armageddon 3 plus years into the future, more millions of the unrighteous will die. It is very likely that Jesus will send out His angels for the parable of the tares on His way down, so that is more harvest of the wicked.

Therefore I see this vision of Jesus on a cloud as a PREVIEW of future events. IF you will note, one the angel's message is "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." Babylon, that is Jerusalem, will not fall until the 7th vial, so again this is PROPHECY; foretelling future events. The destruction of Babylon does not take place in chapter 14.

Finally, just because there are believers on earth during the 70th week does not mean the rapture has to be AFTER. The rapture is BEFORE the week, just as Paul shows us, but many are LEFT BEHIND. Many of these left behind were lukewarm, but when they see their great mistake, will turn to God with all their heart.

Notice what John wrote in chapter 12: "the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Why REMNANT? It is very simple, the MAIN LOAD was taken out at Paul's pretrib rapture.

LAMAD

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I'm not sure what religious group is teaching you, but the harvest of Rev 14 is not symbolic.......it is a harvest.

At the 6th seal, according to Gods word the tribulation is over and the wrath of God has begun. When you understand that the chapters of Rev are not chronological, you will begin to understand why there is no need to hide behind symbolism when things don't appear to fit.

I'm not quite sure why there is a need to continue the tribulation period when it obviously over at the sixth seal.

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 236:

So the BRIDE has no appointment. She took Jesus at His word (Luk 21:36) and ESCAPED His wrath.

Note that Luke 21:36 doesn't require a pre-tribulation rapture. For some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1). And others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[iamlamad]

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I'm not sure what religious group is teaching you, but the harvest of Rev 14 is not symbolic.......it is a harvest.

At the 6th seal, according to Gods word the tribulation is over and the wrath of God has begun. When you understand that the chapters of Rev are not chronological, you will begin to understand why there is no need to hide behind symbolism when things don't appear to fit.

I'm not quite sure why there is a need to continue the tribulation period when it obviously over at the sixth seal.

You don't read very well, neither do you compare with Old Testament scriptures: the book of Joel shows us that there will be signs in the SUN and MOON twice more in our future: first the sun turns dark and the moon into blood (visible) BEFORE and as the signs for the start of the Day of the Lord. This is the sign we read at the 6th seal......the signs for the START of the Day.

Joel 2
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Rev. 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Then Joel shows is another sign (different) as the SIGN of Jesus coming on the white horse, as seen in Rev. 19.

Joel 3
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened(neither sun nor moon visible), and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.


Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (neither visible) and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

As you can see, this is when Jesus returns: as in Rev. 19. He will be DWELLING in Zion and JERUSALEM.

Readers take note: ANYONE can put verses together (out of context) and make the bible APPEAR to say anything:

Matthew 27:5 And he [Judas Iscariot] ..., went and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37 ... Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.


1 Thes 5
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Putting these verses together would cause a casual reader to THINK the bible might be saying this: but is is FALSE DOCTRINE and each of these verses are pulled from their context.

"Choose Wisely" put verses together in a similar manner: verses that simply DON'T go together. When taken in context, they tell a DIFFERENT and FALSE story.

The TRUTH is, "those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will not even BEGIN until the midpoint abomination event, when the man of sin is REVEALED. Why? Because HE is the one that will CAUSE the GT. The days of GT won't even begin then, in earnest, because it will be some little time AFTER the midpoint abomination before the false prophet shows up, the MARK established, the image is erected and people FORCED to worship the image or the MARK, or lose their head. It will be THESE events that CAUSE the days of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus. WHEN will the days of great tribulation begin in Revelation? Not until the one that causes them is revealed, and not until AFTER chapter 14. God will most certainly give his WARNING about not taking the mark before the mark will be enforced.

Yet, "Choose Wisely" would have us believe that those days of GT will be OVER in chapter 6? It is utter nonsense and totally against the truth of the scripture.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

Iamlamad;65069736]

You don't read very well, neither do you compare with Old Testament scriptures: the book of Joel shows us that there will be signs in the SUN and MOON twice more in our future: first the sun turns dark and the moon into blood (visible) BEFORE and as the signs for the start of the Day of the Lord. This is the sign we read at the 6th seal......the signs for the START of the Day.

One of us isn't reading very good..........what are you going to do about those stars falling from heaven. Are you just going to skip over that and turn a blind to it?

Matt 24
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Readers take note: ANYONE can put verses together (out of context) and make the bible APPEAR to say anything:

Or anyone can hide behind .......symbolic.....when they don't know what to do with a verse. So what are you going to do with the harvest of Rev 14....turn a blind eye to it..........or figure out what is going on?

Yet, "Choose Wisely" would have us believe that those days of GT will be OVER in chapter 6? It is utter nonsense and totally against the truth of the scripture.

So what do you think is going on in those 1st 6 seals......nothing? Somebody comes on the scene as the white horse in the 1st seal.

 

[iamlamad]

Iamlamad;65069736]

One of us isn't reading very good..........what are you going to do about those stars falling from heaven. Are you just going to skip over that and turn a blind to it?

Matt 24
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Or anyone can hide behind .......symbolic.....when they don't know what to do with a verse. So what are you going to do with the harvest of Rev 14....turn a blind eye to it..........or figure out what is going on?

So what do you think is going on in those 1st 6 seals......nothing? Somebody comes on the scene as the white horse in the 1st seal.

Anyone knows that a real star, like our sun or far bigger, could not fall to the earth! The earth would disappear! So what does this mean? A Meteor shower?

Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Here we see a "STAR" and it is a HIM...an angel. So all John is telling us is that he saw something that would appear as a meteor, falling to the earth. However, it is YOU that is ignoring the POINT of my post: that these signs in the sun and moon come TWICE; once as a sign for the start of the Day of the Lord, and again about 7 years later as the sign for the coming of the Son of Man. Nice sidestep, but you are CAUGHT. So "stars" fall in both places...so what? The rest of the signs are DIFFERENT. The moon is simply INVISIBLE unless the suns rays hit it and reflect off to the earth.

The harvest is exactly as I said it was. GET REAL! Jesus will not in reality harvest the earth with a sickle! Neither will he be floating on a cloud! This is SYMBOLIC. And since the events in Rev. 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 etc are AFTER this event, I conclude that this is given as prophecy of future events. For example, when will many of the WICKED be harvested? If they were all harvested here, WHERE would those come from at the battle of Armageddon? They would already be harvested.

I can already tell, you know NOTHING of the Author's intent of the seals. The vision of the thone room in chapters 4 & 5 are the CONTEXT of the first seals. Until you understand that vision, your theories of the first 5 seals will be wacko - WAY off the mark.

You see, John shows us the EXACT MOMENT IN TIME when Jesus broke the first seal: it was moments after He ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down....right after telling Mary not to hold onto Him, because He had not yet ascended. So the time? About 32 AD. THAT is when Jesus broke the first seal. What was it to represent? Of course the CHURCH of Jesus Christ sent out to make disciples of all nations.

The next three seals are the devil's feeble efforts to stop the advance of the CHURCH - but these three riders were limited in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. He failed: The church escaped that 1/4 and is now in every nation under the sun.

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. Stephen was one of those. They were told they must WAIT for the final martyr to be killed as they were - as a CHURCH AGE martyr. WHEN will be the last martyr of the church age? Of course when the church age ENDS at Paul's pretrib rapture.

OF COURSE you will deny all these things and come up with more nonsense. I promised on another thread I was GONE. Most posts on these threads are so far from the truth, they are far outside the "pale of orthodoxy" of the true church. In other words, MYTH.

The truth is, Jesus is coming SOON for His bride. If you don't believe this, you will be left behind. God will know that was YOUR OWN CHOICE. He is coming for those LONGING for His coming and WATCHING. Posttribbers cannot possibly be watching, for they believe in their heart that Jesus will not come for His bride until AFTER the days of tribulation.

When you wake up one morning and realize half the world is MISSING, and most believers gone, and a feeling of evil everywhere, people wandering around in SHOCK and FEAR....a worldwide earthquake that kills millions happened during the night, millions looking for their children, their spouses, etc. THEN you will know you have believed a lie and were left behind to meet the wrath of God face to face, and to face the Beast.

I am gone. Time will reveal all.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

iamlamad;65070660]

Here we see a "STAR" and it is a HIM...an angel.

And yet here we see no signs in the sun and moon. GO FISH. You can't split the signs and say some happen here and later we this. The signs happen all at once.

However, it is YOU that is ignoring the POINT of my post: that these signs in the sun and moon come TWICE; once as a sign for the start of the Day of the Lord, and again about 7 years later as the sign for the coming of the Son of Man.

I don't deny there are two sets of signs. I just prefer to match the signs with the proper event. Notice after the signs of the sun moon and stars in Rev 6 that there is a great multitude in Rev 7 ..........Just as there is signs in the sun moon and stars and then a gathering in Matt 24.

. For example, when will many of the WICKED be harvested? If they were all harvested here, WHERE would those come from at the battle of Armageddon? They would already be harvested.

The Bible has your answer. They are reaped and cast into the Wrath of God. Oops we see the Wrath of God start in the sixth seal. Something is wrong. Things don't appear to be in chronological order.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

You see, John shows us the EXACT MOMENT IN TIME when Jesus broke the first seal: it was moments after He ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down....right after telling Mary not to hold onto Him, because He had not yet ascended. So the time? About 32 AD. THAT is when Jesus broke the first seal. What was it to represent? Of course the CHURCH of Jesus Christ sent out to make disciples of all nations.

Yes, you are quite confused. No seals have been opened yet. The first seal will not be opened until the church has been taken in the pretrib rapture.

The truth is, Jesus is coming SOON for His bride. If you don't believe this, you will be left behind. God will know that was YOUR OWN CHOICE. He is coming for those LONGING for His coming and WATCHING. Posttribbers cannot possibly be watching, for they believe in their heart that Jesus will not come for His bride until AFTER the days of tribulation.

Sorry to disappoint, but I believe there will be a pretrib rapture.

When you wake up one morning and realize half the world is MISSING, and most believers gone, and a feeling of evil everywhere, people wandering around in SHOCK and FEAR....a worldwide earthquake that kills millions happened during the night, millions looking for their children, their spouses, etc. THEN you will know you have believed a lie and were left behind to meet the wrath of God face to face, and to face the Beast.

I am gone. Time will reveal all.

What has happened is that I blew a little hole in your boat. Suddenly everything you thought you knew might not be right so you have decided to row away before I sink your boat.

By the way, you will not be able to patch your boat, because the patch will not hold. You will haunted by the fact that the Bible says that the stars fall from heaven in Rev 6 and also in Matt 24.

So, who is the Antichrist? Is he the first beast that comes from the sea or the second that comes from the earth. You will respond that he is the first beast, and you will be right. And yet we see that the first beast was and is not and will come again. How is that possible? We also see that the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit..............

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So who is the Antichrist? Oops more confusion........shot another hole in your boat. Better row fast now, it only gets worse from here.:o

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad;65070660]

And yet here we see no signs in the sun and moon. GO FISH. You can't split the signs and say some happen here and later we this. The signs happen all at once.

You missed my point. This was ONLY to show what a "star" could be. It had nothing at all to do with the signs before the start of the DAY or the signs for the coming of Jesus. The truth is, YOU MIXED UP the signs, and I caught you at it. You cannot put the signs of the sun and moon shown in Matthew 24 with the signs shown at the 6th seal: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME SIGNS. I put them together correctly. Go back and read my post again.

I don't deny there are two sets of signs. I just prefer to match the signs with the proper event. Notice after the signs of the sun moon and stars in Rev 6 that there is a great multitude in Rev 7 ..........Just as there is signs in the sun moon and stars and then a gathering in Matt 24.

I did a perfect match. The sun turning dark and the moon appearing as red is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. Joel 2 and Rev. 6. BOTH the sun and moon darkened is the sign for Jesus coming as shown in Rev. 19. Joel 3 and Matthew 24 talks about this sun and moon sign.

The Bible has your answer. They are reaped and cast into the Wrath of God. Oops we see the Wrath of God start in the sixth seal. Something is wrong. Things don't appear to be in chronological order.

NOTHING is wrong. John wrote things in the exact order they will happen.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Yes, you are quite confused. No seals have been opened yet. The first seal will not be opened until the church has been taken in the pretrib rapture.

Sorry, all the confusion is in your camp. Perhaps you can try and answer the questions God asked me about the vision of chapter 4 & 5.
When Jesus asked these of me, He used first person. I will change His words slightly.

1) Why was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be, and where Stephen SAW Him?

2) Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in Chapter 4, when Jesus said He would send HIm down as soon as HE ascended?

3) Why was "no man found" in the first search for one worthy to break the seals that John watched end in failure? If we read ahead, we see that Jesus was found.

Sorry to disappoint, but I believe there will be a pretrib rapture.

Good! Then please show us why....PROVE it.

What has happened is that I blew a little hole in your boat. Suddenly everything you thought you knew might not be right so you have decided to row away before I sink your boat.

I was not in a boat. I just figured out it is a TOTAL waste of time to post here. You THINK you know, when in fact, you don't. Socrates said that is what causes the ills of the whole world. The fact is, my beliefs are very solid. The Holy Spirit spent months teaching me the things I write. I know what I believe and I know why I believe it: it is the intent of the Author. You showed your ignorance of Revelation when you said it could not possibly be chronological. It looks like Bible2 is far ahead of you here in writing truth. He does get a few things right.

By the way, you will not be able to patch your boat, because the patch will not hold. You will haunted by the fact that the Bible says that the stars fall from heaven in Rev 6 and also in Matt 24.

Your boat sank when you said Revelation was not chronological. Why don't you begin PROVING why it is not. IS that so difficult? Show us verses that are out of sequence and explain WHY you believe they are out. It is not the things that are the SAME that show us different signs, it is the things that are DIFFERENT. You built a great strawman; but he burned up. The difference is what makes the difference, and the TIMING is what makes the difference: one comes in Rev. 6 long before Jesus comes: at least 7 plus years before. The next time these signs will be shown will be just before Jesus returns in Rev. 19. John did not see these signs so did not tell us. They are not written in Rev, but ARE written in Joel 3 and in Matthew 24.

So, who is the Antichrist? Is he the first beast that comes from the sea or the second that comes from the earth. You will respond that he is the first beast, and you will be right. And yet we see that the first beast was and is not and will come again. How is that possible? We also see that the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit..............

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

So who is the Antichrist? Oops more confusion........shot another hole in your boat. Better row fast now, it only gets worse from here.:o

I will not jump into another disagreement with you until you quit shadow boxing and sidestepping on the issues we have before us. The truth is, I WON'T BE HERE to see the antichrist. And I don't think ANYONE knows who he is - and they WON'T until he is revealed.

Seal 1: White horse: broken 32 AD: the CHURCH sent out to make disciples
Seal 2: Red horse to bring WAR. Again broken 32 AD
Seal 3: Black horse to bring famine. Broken in 32 AD
SEal 4: Pale sickly green horse, named DEATH.

Seals 2,3, and 4 ride together. but they are limited in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the planet. We can be SURE that fourth will be centered on ISRAEL. Therefore it would include Europe and Africa and the Middle East, and part of Eastern Europe.

Seal five is for the martyrs of the church age. That seal too was broken in 32 AD. Note that at seal 5 there is a WAIT...it is the first mention of a time of waiting. They must wait for the end of the church age and the final martyr of the church age. So seal 5 is a strong HINT to the timing of the rapture: it comes one second or so before the great earthquake shown at the 6th seal.

This earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising - the RAPTURE of the bride. So the great crowd seen in chapter 7 IS THE BRIDE seen in heaven. Then will come the signs in the sun and moon...the moon appearing red.

The 7th seal (still future) will then be broken in heaven as the marker, announcing the start of the Day of the Lord and the 70th week. It will be the beginning of His wrath. His wrath then will continue on through the 70th week and beyond.

The first six trumpets will be sounded in the first half of the 70th week. Three and one half days before the abomination, the man of sin will enter Jerusalem, with his armies. The city will then be trampled for 42 months. Seconds later (or before) the two witnesses show up. They come because HE CAME. They will testify for 1260 days, taking them right to 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.

The 7th trumpet is the MARKER for the exact midpoint of the week, sounding in heaven when the abomination takes place on earth. One second later, those living in Judea flee (12:6)

At the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of the world are TRANSFERRED from Satan to Jesus. WHY HERE? Because at the 7th trumpet, the first 6000 years of man's rule is FINISHED: Adam's lease (the scroll or book with the 7 seals) is UP! FINISHED. Suddenly the devil has no hold on earth! The lease he usurped has run out! So Michael and his angels will go at the sounding of the 7th trumpet to take Satan OUT of the heavenlies. He will be cast down, very angry, and go immediately after the woman who will be fleeing into the wilderness. However, she will have supernatural protection and will be fed by God for 3 1/2 years.

There you have it: the first half of the 70th week. The beginning will be marked by the 7th seal, the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet and the end marked by the 7th vial.

I am convinced, most of this will go right over your head. You will argue most of these points, thinking they are not true. Well, you will be wrong. You cannot fight against truth with false doctrine. You can only try.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

You missed my point. This was ONLY to show what a "star" could be. It had nothing at all to do with the signs before the start of the DAY or the signs for the coming of Jesus. The truth is, YOU MIXED UP the signs, and I caught you at it. You cannot put the signs of the sun and moon shown in Matthew 24 with the signs shown at the 6th seal: THEY ARE NOT THE SAME SIGNS. I put them together correctly. Go back and read my post again.



I did a perfect match. The sun turning dark and the moon appearing as red is the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. Joel 2 and Rev. 6. BOTH the sun and moon darkened is the sign for Jesus coming as shown in Rev. 19. Joel 3 and Matthew 24 talks about this sun and moon sign.





NOTHING is wrong. John wrote things in the exact order they will happen.



Sorry, all the confusion is in your camp. Perhaps you can try and answer the questions God asked me about the vision of chapter 4 & 5.
When Jesus asked these of me, He used first person. I will change His words slightly.

1) Why was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when we have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be, and where Stephen SAW Him?

2) Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in Chapter 4, when Jesus said He would send HIm down as soon as HE ascended?

3) Why was "no man found" in the first search for one worthy to break the seals that John watched end in failure? If we read ahead, we see that Jesus was found.




Good! Then please show us why....PROVE it.




I was not in a boat. I just figured out it is a TOTAL waste of time to post here. You THINK you know, when in fact, you don't. Socrates said that is what causes the ills of the whole world. The fact is, my beliefs are very solid. The Holy Spirit spent months teaching me the things I write. I know what I believe and I know why I believe it: it is the intent of the Author. You showed your ignorance of Revelation when you said it could not possibly be chronological. It looks like Bible2 is far ahead of you here in writing truth. He does get a few things right.



Your boat sank when you said Revelation was not chronological. Why don't you begin PROVING why it is not. IS that so difficult? Show us verses that are out of sequence and explain WHY you believe they are out. It is not the things that are the SAME that show us different signs, it is the things that are DIFFERENT. You built a great strawman; but he burned up. The difference is what makes the difference, and the TIMING is what makes the difference: one comes in Rev. 6 long before Jesus comes: at least 7 plus years before. The next time these signs will be shown will be just before Jesus returns in Rev. 19. John did not see these signs so did not tell us. They are not written in Rev, but ARE written in Joel 3 and in Matthew 24.



I will not jump into another disagreement with you until you quit shadow boxing and sidestepping on the issues we have before us. The truth is, I WON'T BE HERE to see the antichrist. And I don't think ANYONE knows who he is - and they WON'T until he is revealed.

Seal 1: White horse: broken 32 AD: the CHURCH sent out to make disciples
Seal 2: Red horse to bring WAR. Again broken 32 AD
Seal 3: Black horse to bring famine. Broken in 32 AD
SEal 4: Pale sickly green horse, named DEATH.

Seals 2,3, and 4 ride together. but they are limited in their theater of operation to 1/4 of the planet. We can be SURE that fourth will be centered on ISRAEL. Therefore it would include Europe and Africa and the Middle East, and part of Eastern Europe.

Seal five is for the martyrs of the church age. That seal too was broken in 32 AD. Note that at seal 5 there is a WAIT...it is the first mention of a time of waiting. They must wait for the end of the church age and the final martyr of the church age. So seal 5 is a strong HINT to the timing of the rapture: it comes one second or so before the great earthquake shown at the 6th seal.

This earthquake will be caused by the dead in Christ rising - the RAPTURE of the bride. So the great crowd seen in chapter 7 IS THE BRIDE seen in heaven. Then will come the signs in the sun and moon...the moon appearing red.

The 7th seal (still future) will then be broken in heaven as the marker, announcing the start of the Day of the Lord and the 70th week. It will be the beginning of His wrath. His wrath then will continue on through the 70th week and beyond.

The first six trumpets will be sounded in the first half of the 70th week. Three and one half days before the abomination, the man of sin will enter Jerusalem, with his armies. The city will then be trampled for 42 months. Seconds later (or before) the two witnesses show up. They come because HE CAME. They will testify for 1260 days, taking them right to 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week.

The 7th trumpet is the MARKER for the exact midpoint of the week, sounding in heaven when the abomination takes place on earth. One second later, those living in Judea flee (12:6)

At the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of the world are TRANSFERRED from Satan to Jesus. WHY HERE? Because at the 7th trumpet, the first 6000 years of man's rule is FINISHED: Adam's lease (the scroll or book with the 7 seals) is UP! FINISHED. Suddenly the devil has no hold on earth! The lease he usurped has run out! So Michael and his angels will go at the sounding of the 7th trumpet to take Satan OUT of the heavenlies. He will be cast down, very angry, and go immediately after the woman who will be fleeing into the wilderness. However, she will have supernatural protection and will be fed by God for 3 1/2 years.

There you have it: the first half of the 70th week. The beginning will be marked by the 7th seal, the midpoint marked by the 7th trumpet and the end marked by the 7th vial.

I am convinced, most of this will go right over your head. You will argue most of these points, thinking they are not true. Well, you will be wrong. You cannot fight against truth with false doctrine. You can only try.

LAMAD

Ok, let's deal with one thing then. Show me when the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matt 24 occur in Revelation? ............If you can.

 

[iamlamad]

Ok, let's deal with one thing then. Show me when the signs of the sun, moon and stars of Matt 24 occur in Revelation? ............If you can.

I already answered that: they are NOT SHOWN in Revelation. John did not see them, so did not write about them. IF they were shown, John would have written about them in chapters 18m 18 or 19, JUST BEFORE Jesus comes on the white horse.

The signs that ARE shown, in chapter 6, are the signs for the start of the Day of the Lord, and will come about 7 plus years before Jesus comes on the white horse.

LAMAD

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Choose Wisely]

The day of the
Lord starts after the great tribulation.

What do you use to prove that?

 

[Bible2]

Choose Wisely said in post 244:

Matt 24
and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Just as Matthew 24:29 can refer to literal clouds blocking the literal light from the literal sun and moon, so it can refer to those literal things we still call "falling stars": meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and will be seen before they land on the earth.

So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the first heaven, the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal fallen-angelic "powers" that currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).

Choose Wisely said in post 244:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

Choose Wisely said in post 244:

Somebody comes on the scene as the white horse in the 1st seal.

Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

*******

Choose Wisely said in post 246:

So, who is the Antichrist? Is he the first beast that comes from the sea or the second that comes from the earth. You will respond that he is the first beast, and you will be right.

That's right.

"Beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it's referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).

Choose Wisely said in post 246:

And yet we see that the first beast was and is not and will come again. How is that possible?

The 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

Choose Wisely said in post 246:

We also see that the beast will ascend out of the bottomless pit...

Another aspect of Revelation's beast is that it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its total takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

 

[Bible2]

iamlamad said in post 245:

So "stars" fall in both places...so what? The rest of the signs are DIFFERENT.

That's right.

Revelation 6:12-13 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two different sets of events. For Revelation 6:12-13 will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, whereas Matthew 24:29-31 (like Revelation 19:7-21, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29). Also, when Revelation 6:12-13 occurs, the moon's light will appear blood-red, whereas when Matthew 24:29 occurs, the moon's light won't be seen at all. There will also be one point between the time of Revelation 6:12-13 and the time of Matthew 24:29 when the moon's light temporarily won't be seen at all, during 1/3 of the night (Revelation 8:12).

Also, the sun temporarily appearing to be darkened in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For it will happen again during the 4th trumpet (part of the tribulation's 2nd stage), for 1/3 of the day (Revelation 8:12), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:2), and then again during the 5th vial (Revelation 16:10), part of the tribulation's 4th and final stage, the 3rd stage being the literal 3.5-year time period of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14). Also, what will appear like "stars" falling from the sky in Revelation 6:12-13 will be only the first time during the tribulation that something like that will happen. For subsequently, during the 3rd trumpet, what will appear like a star will fall from the sky (Revelation 8:10-11), and then again during the 5th trumpet (Revelation 9:1). And then again, mid-tribulation, what will appear like stars will descend from the sky (Revelation 12:4).

iamlamad said in post 245:

The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE.

Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

iamlamad said in post 245:

WHEN will be the last martyr of the church age? Of course when the church age ENDS at Paul's pretrib rapture.

Regarding the present age (world) ending, note that nothing in verses like Ephesians 1:21b, Ephesians 1:10, Ephesians 3:2, Colossians 1:25, Titus 2:12b, and Hebrews 6:5 says or requires that only the present age is an age of grace or a church age, or that the age to come won't also be an age of grace or a church age.

Also, the present age can include the future tribulation (Revelation chapters 6 to 18) and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20), with the age to come being the subsequent time of the new earth (Revelation 21). For the end of the present age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-15).

iamlamad said in post 245:

WHEN will be the last martyr of the church age? Of course when the church age ENDS at Paul's pretrib rapture.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

iamlamad said in post 245:

The truth is, Jesus is coming SOON for His bride.

The 10-virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus won't occur until his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying won't occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage won't occur until after the (never fulfilled) tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his 2nd coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) won't have yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which won't begin until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (cf. Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after the resurrection and marriage of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's armies defeated at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Also, regarding the 10-virgins parable, in Matthew 25:6 "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) could be set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the abomination of desolation is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' 2nd coming. This date could be the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

iamlamad said in post 245:

The truth is, Jesus is coming SOON for His bride. If you don't believe this, you will be left behind.

Note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

iamlamad said in post 245:

He is coming for those LONGING for His coming and WATCHING.

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, believers will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:42-43, Matthew 25:13), which Jesus has just finished saying won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For if a believer isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that believer by surprise (cf. the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). And that believer will lose his or her salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

Also, even when believers know the truth that Jesus' return won't occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), they still need to live each day knowing that any of them could die at any time (Luke 12:20, James 4:14).

 

[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 250:

The day of the
Lord starts after the great tribulation.

That's right.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Choose Wisely]

Just as Matthew 24:29 can refer to literal clouds blocking the literal light from the literal sun and moon, so it can refer to those literal things we still call "falling stars": meteors, but ones which will also be meteorites, i.e. ones which will pass through the clouds and will be seen before they land on the earth.

So "heaven" in Matthew 24:29-31 can simply refer to the first heaven, the sky/atmosphere. And "the powers of the heavens" which will be shaken can refer to the literal fallen-angelic "powers" that currently rule the unsaved world from high above the earth (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2).



The 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).



Regarding the 1st seal's horseman, on the white horse (Revelation 6:1-2), that could represent the gospel of Jesus (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all nations and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all nations during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow (Revelation 6:2) is a weapon that's able to affect things far away, just as the gospel is able to affect things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

*******



That's right.

"Beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12). Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8) when it's referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast, commonly called the Antichrist, the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). He will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).

He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:5-10, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7), and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), who by amazing, Satanic miracles (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15), and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:20), whereas at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3).



The 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.



Another aspect of Revelation's beast is that it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11) who is now literally in the bottomless pit and will ascend from it during the future tribulation to spiritually empower the empire of the Antichrist. The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince whom Satan had assigned to spiritually empower the ancient empire of Babylon, just as Satan had assigned other fallen angelic princes to spiritually empower the subsequent ancient empires of Persia and Greece (Daniel 10:13,20). When the ancient empire of Babylon was defeated, the fallen angelic prince empowering it could have been cast into the bottomless pit. This same fallen angel could be released to empower a revival of the empire of Babylon during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18).

The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit could occur at the same time as the unbinding of 4 other powerful fallen angels now bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14b), who could have been bound there at the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon. When these 4 fallen angels are released at one point during the future tribulation, they will cause an army of 200 million weird horse-like beings to kill 1/3 of mankind (Revelation 9:15-19). This could be done in order to make mankind completely desperate before its total takeover by Satan and the Antichrist mid-tribulation, when Satan and his fallen angels will be cast down from heaven to the earth permanently after losing a mid-tribulation war in heaven (Revelation 12:7 to 13:18).

I think you have given an excellent response. However I think you are wrong about the signs in Matt 24 and Rev 6. I also think you are wrong about who the rider on the white horse is in the first seal. This person would be evil and not the king of kings.

 

[iamlamad]

I think you have given an excellent response. However I think you are wrong about the signs in Matt 24 and Rev 6. I also think you are wrong about who the rider on the white horse is in the first seal. This person would be evil and not the king of kings.

Please show us any word or words used to describe this first horse and rider that would even HINT that this is to represent evil. Also, please show us the TIMING of this seal that might hint of evil.

Did you not notice that John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and all the other times to represent righteousness? Why then would ANYONE even think that John (and the Holy Spirit) would use white here to represent anything else but righteousness?

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

Please show us any word or words used to describe this first horse and rider that would even HINT that this is to represent evil. Also, please show us the TIMING of this seal that might hint of evil.

Did you not notice that John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and all the other times to represent righteousness? Why then would ANYONE even think that John (and the Holy Spirit) would use white here to represent anything else but righteousness?

LAMAD

Well you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the white horse is Jesus as you claim..........then the book of revelation is out of order.........as we see all the church's before the seals are broken which was 32 AD according to you. So one way or another, you are wrong.

As far as the person represented by the white horse being evil, this person has a bow. Jesus has no need for a bow without arrows. However there is one that comes in peacefully with flatteries that would carry a bow. If you understood... even now there are many antichrists, you might understand the origin of that bow. This rider is also given a stephanos crown, the leaf crown of victory. The same crown that is the logo of the UN. As for the timing of the seal, it has not been opened yet. It will be opened after the pretrib rapture when the world is in chaos. I am guessing you have heard of "order out of chaos"

So anyway which is it. Is the rider on the white horse Jesus or are the books of Revelation out of order?

 

[shturt678s]

Well you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the white horse is Jesus as you claim..........then the book of revelation is out of order.........as we see all the church's before the seals are broken which was 32 AD according to you. So one way or another, you are wrong.

As far as the person represented by the white horse being evil, this person has a bow. Jesus has no need for a bow without arrows. However there is one that comes in peacefully with flatteries that would carry a bow. If you understood... even now there are many antichrists, you might understand the origin of that bow. This rider is also given a stephanos crown, the leaf crown of victory. The same crown that is the logo of the UN. As for the timing of the seal, it has not been opened yet. It will be opened after the pretrib rapture when the world is in chaos. I am guessing you have heard of "order out of chaos"

So anyway which is it. Is the rider on the white horse Jesus or are the books of Revelation out of order?

Rev.6:2 Horse, rider, and what is said of him, are the composite symbol, ie, the power of the Word of God.

Old Jack,

agape those easy ones

 

[iamlamad]

Well you can't have your cake and eat it too. If the white horse is Jesus as you claim..........then the book of revelation is out of order.........as we see all the church's before the seals are broken which was 32 AD according to you. So one way or another, you are wrong.

As far as the person represented by the white horse being evil, this person has a bow. Jesus has no need for a bow without arrows. However there is one that comes in peacefully with flatteries that would carry a bow. If you understood... even now there are many antichrists, you might understand the origin of that bow. This rider is also given a stephanos crown, the leaf crown of victory. The same crown that is the logo of the UN. As for the timing of the seal, it has not been opened yet. It will be opened after the pretrib rapture when the world is in chaos. I am guessing you have heard of "order out of chaos"

So anyway which is it. Is the rider on the white horse Jesus or are the books of Revelation out of order?

WRONG AGAIN! I did not say the first horse was to represent Jesus or was Jesus. It is the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. The devil is the god of all these nations. Would he just stand aside and allow the church to fill the world with the word of God? OF COURSE NOT! There had to be conquering every step of the way; every advance of the church came with bloodshed. But the devil has LOST! Now there is nowhere in the world where there is no access to the word of God, unless perhaps some small island of headhunters without cell phones.

Next, you MUST give up your false theories to learn the truth: go back and study chapters 4 & 5 until you can answer those three questions. Notice in particular verse 6. That verse tells us without a doubt the TIMING of this chapter: it was 32 AD or whatever year Jesus rose from the dead. What is the FIRST THING Jesus did when He ascended? Verse 7 answers that: "he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." WHEN did He take the book? You cannot find 2000 years between these verses: He took the book from the Father in 32 AD, as soon as He ascended; and began immediately to break the seals. So the first seal was broken in 32 AD. White represents righteousness. What was the ONLy righteous entity on earth then? ONLY the church, for they had inherited the righteous of Jesus Christ by birth - the NEW birth.

WHY was this so important? WHY was John weeping so much? This book was and is the TITLE DEED or lease document to planet earth. Satan was SURE no one would ever be worthy to break the seals, so he could stay in power forever. He was WRONG. Then, he was sure he could hold the church in the 1/4 of the earth the red, the black and the pale horses and riders were limited to. Again he was wrong, and the church went around the world.

Finally, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet at the exact midpoint of the week, the earth lease given to Adam IS UP! The lease will EXPIRE, and suddenly the devil will have no more legal hold to the kingdoms of the earth. He had usurped Adam's 6000 year lease, but now that lease has expired - at the future 7th trumpet. So Michael has waited a LONG TIME for the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and will immediately go after Satan to cast him down.

LAMAD

 

[Choose Wisely]

WRONG AGAIN! I did not say the first horse was to represent Jesus or was Jesus. It is the CHURCH sent out to make disciples of all nations. The devil is the god of all these nations. Would he just stand aside and allow the church to fill the world with the word of God? OF COURSE NOT! There had to be conquering every step of the way; every advance of the church came with bloodshed. But the devil has LOST! Now there is nowhere in the world where there is no access to the word of God, unless perhaps some small island of headhunters without cell phones.

Next, you MUST give up your false theories to learn the truth: go back and study chapters 4 & 5 until you can answer those three questions. Notice in particular verse 6. That verse tells us without a doubt the TIMING of this chapter: it was 32 AD or whatever year Jesus rose from the dead. What is the FIRST THING Jesus did when He ascended? Verse 7 answers that: "he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne." WHEN did He take the book? You cannot find 2000 years between these verses: He took the book from the Father in 32 AD, as soon as He ascended; and began immediately to break the seals. So the first seal was broken in 32 AD. White represents righteousness. What was the ONLy righteous entity on earth then? ONLY the church, for they had inherited the righteous of Jesus Christ by birth - the NEW birth.

WHY was this so important? WHY was John weeping so much? This book was and is the TITLE DEED or lease document to planet earth. Satan was SURE no one would ever be worthy to break the seals, so he could stay in power forever. He was WRONG. Then, he was sure he could hold the church in the 1/4 of the earth the red, the black and the pale horses and riders were limited to. Again he was wrong, and the church went around the world.

Finally, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet at the exact midpoint of the week, the earth lease given to Adam IS UP! The lease will EXPIRE, and suddenly the devil will have no more legal hold to the kingdoms of the earth. He had usurped Adam's 6000 year lease, but now that lease has expired - at the future 7th trumpet. So Michael has waited a LONG TIME for the sounding of the 7th trumpet, and will immediately go after Satan to cast him down.

LAMAD

You have an active imagination.